Drinking water on trains with alcohol licence

pethadine82 · 21 Apr 2013

I am aware that any establishment that serves alcohol has to offer its patrons drinking water free of charge. For most people examples of these are bars, clubs, pubs, restaurants.

Now I can see no exclusion of trains. They have to have an liquor license to serve alcohol and I cannot see any reason why they should be exempt.
Airlines are not exempt and they serve water free of charge.

Comments welcome.

RailUK Forums

DD · 21 Apr 2013

pethadine82 said:
I am aware that any establishment that serves alcohol has to offer its patrons drinking water free of charge. For most people examples of these are bars, clubs, pubs, restaurants.

Now I can see no exclusion of trains. They have to have an liquor license to serve alcohol and I cannot see any reason why they should be exempt.
Airlines are not exempt and they serve water free of charge.

Comments welcome.

Ryanair charge for water

Jonfun · 21 Apr 2013

I've no idea whether it affects the need to offer drinking water, but just as a point of note trains aren't licensable premises whilst engaged in a journey, along with boats and possibly other form of transport.

transmanche · 21 Apr 2013

pethadine82 said:
They have to have an liquor license to serve alcohol

Actually they don't.

Selling alcohol on a train is not a licensable activity.

Licensing Act 2003 s173(1).

YorkshireRider · 21 Apr 2013

Indeed, trains, planes and boats do not need a licence when in passenger service, do budget airlines give water free of charge?

455driver · 21 Apr 2013

As stated a train in the course of making a journey does not need a licence, some of the pres lines take it to the letter and wont serve alcohol while the train is stood at a station.

Jonfun · 21 Apr 2013

455driver said:
As stated a train in the course of making a journey does not need a licence, some of the pres lines take it to the letter and wont serve alcohol while the train is stood at a station.

That is odd - it would still be perfectly legal according to the Licensing Act - anything between when it starts being prepared for service and until the point where everyone's off at the end is still a legal sale without a licence.

transmanche · 21 Apr 2013

455driver said:
As stated a train in the course of making a journey does not need a licence, some of the pres lines take it to the letter and wont serve alcohol while the train is stood at a station.

Well that's just silly, as s173(2) of the Licensing Act says;

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1) the period during which an aircraft, hovercraft, railway vehicle or vessel is engaged on a journey includes
(a)any period ending with its departure when preparations are being made for the journey, and
(b)any period after its arrival at its destination when it continues to be occupied by those (or any of those) who made the journey (or any part of it).

So there's no reason why they can't sell alcohol when the train is stationery - so long as it's part of a journey.

455driver · 22 Apr 2013

I have had it twice now at 2 different railways (cant remember which ones) so just wait until the train starts moving, no biggy.

scotsman · 22 Apr 2013

Yup, they can charge if they want to - especially since it's likely to be bottled, given that water stored in the normal tanks on trains aren't suitable for drinking.

Michael.Y · 22 Apr 2013

There's a subtle difference between a venue designed specifically for the consumption of intoxicating liquor and an environment where said liquor happens to be available. In the first instance the props have an obligation / duty of care to their patrons to make water available should they desire it due to the dehydrating effects of alcohol. In the second instance, it is just a commodity the same as coke or Fanta and should be treated as such.

I will never forget the appalled look on one passenger's face as she recoiled in horror as I had the audacity to charge her for water.....for her dog.

barrykas · 22 Apr 2013

scotsman said:
Yup, they can charge if they want to - especially since it's likely to be bottled, given that water stored in the normal tanks on trains aren't suitable for drinking.

Depends on the train. Certainly the tanks on a buffet vehicle should be filled with drinking water!

Qwerty133 · 22 Apr 2013

Michael.Y said:
There's a subtle difference between a venue designed specifically for the consumption of intoxicating liquor and an environment where said liquor happens to be available. In the first instance the props have an obligation / duty of care to their patrons to make water available should they desire it due to the dehydrating effects of alcohol. In the second instance, it is just a commodity the same as coke or Fanta and should be treated as such.

I will never forget the appalled look on one passenger's face as she recoiled in horror as I had the audacity to charge her for water.....for her dog.

If its for a dog she should have got some out of the sink in the toilet

theageofthetra · 22 Apr 2013

Was it true (or just an urban myth!) That a nice money spinner on the Welsh preserved lines in the early days was selling beer on their trains on a Sunday when their respective Welsh county were still in those days "dry"

Mvann · 22 Apr 2013

theageofthetra said:
Was it true (or just an urban myth!) That a nice money spinner on the Welsh preserved lines in the early days was selling beer on their trains on a Sunday when their respective Welsh county were still in those days "dry"

It was true at least for the Ffestiniog. They used to run an evening train on a Sunday.

As far as I was aware, the sale of alcohol can be sold while the train is in service without a licence. This shouldn't stop the sale of anything else between the train terminating and the start of the next service. Nene valley railway can sell, but that's due to certain platform areas being licenced for a static bar in a railway carriage.

bluegoblin7 · 22 Apr 2013

pethadine82 said:
I am aware that any establishment that serves alcohol has to offer its patrons drinking water free of charge. For most people examples of these are bars, clubs, pubs, restaurants.

Not necessarily: it's not written into any licensing laws that establishments have to provide drinking water free of charge, rather it tends to be included as a clause/requirement of individual premises licenses which can differ from council to council.

Sorry for the slightly OT post!

JohnB57 · 22 Apr 2013

bluegoblin7 said:
Not necessarily: it's not written into any licensing laws that establishments have to provide drinking water free of charge, rather it tends to be included as a clause/requirement of individual premises licenses which can differ from council to council.

What's this then?

Condition 3 states: -

Free Tap Water for Customers
Many premises already offer free tap water. This condition means that all premises have to give customers tap water for free if they ask for it. This helps people to space out their drinks and not become intoxicated quickly, which reduces the risk of crime and disorder occurring. The tap water you provide should be suitable for drinking and must be provided where reasonably available. What is meant by reasonably available is a question of fact; for example, it would not be reasonable to expect free tap water to be available in premises for which the water supply had temporarily been lost because of a broken mains supply.

michael769 · 22 Apr 2013

bluegoblin7 said:
Not necessarily: it's not written into any licensing laws that establishments have to provide drinking water free of charge, rather it tends to be included as a clause/requirement of individual premises licenses which can differ from council to council.

The provision of free drinking water is a mandatory license condition under Sect 34 and Schedule 4 of the Policing and Crime Act 2009 via Regulation 3 of The Licensing Act 2003 (Mandatory Licensing Conditions) Order 2010

3. The responsible person shall ensure that free tap water is provided on request to customers where it is reasonably available.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I is unlikely that the above requirement applies to trains (which are mostly exempt from licensing laws), and even if it did the reasonably available clause would probably be a get out.

Having said that I would hope that ToCs would reflect on the why this law exists and their moral responsibility towards their passengers and society and promote responsible alcohol use.

JohnB57 · 22 Apr 2013

michael769 said:
I is unlikely that the above requirement applies to trains (which are mostly exempt from licensing laws), and even if it did the reasonably available clause would probably be a get out.

Having said that I would hope that ToCs would reflect on the why this law exists and their moral responsibility towards their passengers and society and promote responsible alcohol use.

I guess the main difference between licensed premises and trains is that it's possible to consume your own food and drink on trains, with alcohol prohibited only under certain circumstances. It's difficult to see how TOCs can police this.

MidnightFlyer · 22 Apr 2013

theageofthetra said:
Was it true (or just an urban myth!) That a nice money spinner on the Welsh preserved lines in the early days was selling beer on their trains on a Sunday when their respective Welsh county were still in those days "dry"

In a similar way, I seem to recall the old Wick & Lybster Light Railway used to do a roaring trade as between 1922-1947, Wick was completely dry, having no licensed premises at all. Lybster on the other hand did, so Wick residents used to use the line when they felt like a drink.

Gwenllian2001 · 22 Apr 2013

theageofthetra said:
Was it true (or just an urban myth!) That a nice money spinner on the Welsh preserved lines in the early days was selling beer on their trains on a Sunday when their respective Welsh county were still in those days "dry"

I can only speak for the Ffestiniog and have fond memories of those days. The only place to get a drink on a Sunday in Porthmadog, legally, was the British Legion Club. For obvious reasons the Legion kept a very tight control on their door. The railway, however, was free to serve all comers at any time of the day. Local residents took advantage of this and the evening 'Beer Train' was legendary, full of off duty staff and volunteers. Sing songs and hi jinks were the order of the day but never, in my experience, anything unpleasant. All of that ended when the district voted to go 'wet'. A pity, but that's 'progress'.

Requeststop · 22 Apr 2013

DD said:
Ryanair charge for water

Ryanair woud charge for breathing if they could.

GadgetMan · 22 Apr 2013

michael769 said:
Having said that I would hope that ToCs would reflect on the why this law exists and their moral responsibility towards their passengers and society and promote responsible alcohol use.

I would go one step further and just ban alcohol on trains altogether. If adults who drink can't take responsibilty for their own behaviour then ban the stuff. Why should the railway have to take on yet more responsibilty by babysitting people who can't control their own alcohol intake.

455driver · 22 Apr 2013

Oh yeah brilliant, you are basically saying that everyone who has an alcoholic drink on a train gets rat ar##d and becomes a nuisance are you?

I think you will find that the nuisances were pi##ed before they got on the train! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

pethadine82 said:
I am aware that any establishment that serves alcohol has to offer its patrons drinking water free of charge. For most people examples of these are bars, clubs, pubs, restaurants.

Now I can see no exclusion of trains. They have to have an liquor license to serve alcohol and I cannot see any reason why they should be exempt.
Airlines are not exempt and they serve water free of charge.
Comments welcome.

Licenced premises (which trains are not) have to provide free tap water, that is going to be quite difficult on a train if they had to provide it, which they dont!

SS4 · 22 Apr 2013

GadgetMan said:
I would go one step further and just ban alcohol on trains altogether. If adults who drink can't take responsibilty for their own behaviour then ban the stuff. Why should the railway have to take on yet more responsibilty by babysitting people who can't control their own alcohol intake.

The railway can exercise its powers under Byelaw 4 without having to resort to dry trains. There are few drunks and even fewer violent drunks and whilst one is too many it's akin to locking yourself in a bubble so nothing may ever hurt you.

GadgetMan · 22 Apr 2013

SS4 said:
The railway can exercise its powers under Byelaw 4 without having to resort to dry trains. There are few drunks and even fewer violent drunks and whilst one is too many it's akin to locking yourself in a bubble so nothing may ever hurt you.

My comment was only a direct response to the post quoted which basically made out the railway should take on yet more babysitting responsibility.

I wasn't suggesting we do actually ban all alcohol from trains, rather banning would be preferable to throwing more resources and taking on more unneccessary responsibilities.

SS4 · 22 Apr 2013

GadgetMan said:
My comment was only a direct response to the post quoted which basically made out the railway should take on yet more babysitting responsibility.

I wasn't suggesting we do actually ban all alcohol from trains, rather banning would be preferable to throwing more resources and taking on more unneccessary responsibilities.

my mistake

D1009 · 22 Apr 2013

455driver said:
I have had it twice now at 2 different railways (cant remember which ones) so just wait until the train starts moving, no biggy.

I think it's because they don't want to serve alcohol to non passengers, or to have people drinking on the platform. I recall once being politely requested not to take my beer out on to the platform at Oxenhope.

455driver · 22 Apr 2013

There is something to be said about sitting in a mark 1 compartment, drinking a pint watching the world go by (at 25mph)!

StoneRoad · 22 Apr 2013

transmanche said:
Well that's just silly, as s173(2) of the Licensing Act says;

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1) the period during which an aircraft, hovercraft, railway vehicle or vessel is engaged on a journey includes
(a)any period ending with its departure when preparations are being made for the journey, and
(b)any period after its arrival at its destination when it continues to be occupied by those (or any of those) who made the journey (or any part of it).

So there's no reason why they can't sell alcohol when the train is stationery - so long as it's part of a journey.

Gwenllian2001 said:
I can only speak for the Ffestiniog and have fond memories of those days. The only place to get a drink on a Sunday in Porthmadog, legally, was the British Legion Club. For obvious reasons the Legion kept a very tight control on their door. The railway, however, was free to serve all comers at any time of the day. Local residents took advantage of this and the evening 'Beer Train' was legendary, full of off duty staff and volunteers. Sing songs and hi jinks were the order of the day but never, in my experience, anything unpleasant. All of that ended when the district voted to go 'wet'. A pity, but that's 'progress'.

It could be quite "entertaining" for the guard doing the "Beer Train" - although I can't remember anything too bad, even if some of the songs were a little unsuitable for mixed company........ :lol:

It was carnival day in Porthmadog that caused me the most problems - one year it was a group of lads on child(!) tickets trying to buy booze on the train (and they didn't even have a ticket each, the cheeky so-and-so's), another year two or three groups looking to settle a dispute or something (they got separated into different non-corridor coaches!)

Drinking water on trains with alcohol licence

On Moderation

RailUK Forums

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member