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LBC reporter checking on train drivers

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A-driver

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transmanche said:
I'm not sure what you're getting worked up about.

I don't think anyone here has seriously suggested that they want to see into the driver's cab in order to monitor the driver. They just liked the forward view that was offered on 1st Gen DMUs - and is offered on ICE3s, DLR, T&W Metro and so on.

Well that's where a comparison with the T&W Metro proves useful - if it's something which you're worried about. Ask them and find out how often people have done that. The trains are undergoing a complete refurbishment programme and the front-end arrangement hasn't changed - which suggests to me that it's not a problem.

Evidence from various studies suggests the opposite. It's the personal and emotional conversations (like the examples I gave previously) which can be the most distracting.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/driven-to-distraction/2007/08/02/1185648060516.html

A number of studies have shown that using hands-free equipment is as dangerous as drink driving.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2006/jun/30/mobilephones.uknews
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ee-mobile-phones-dangerous-drink-driving.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/hands-free-cell-phones-driving_n_3319227.html
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So how do you get a forward facing view without seeing the driver considering a drivers cab needs access to both sides of the train and needs to fit at least 2 seats in? And do you really think that providing a forward view is worth the industry spending money on? I don't really see what is so interesting about seeing e forward view either, most if the best views in a train are I side windows anyway. All that you see infront is track and signals.

Plus this thread is about watching the driver to check they aren't using a phone, not about providing a forward facing view for the punters so I think people are talking about monitoring the driver actually.

Again, you are still only justifying this from an enthusiasts point of view...as far as I'm concerned that isn't justification for putting windows in. Unless you can provide a safety case for it then I can't see how you have a valid point. My cab is my private space and I don't like the idea of people watching me do my job, I see no reason for it whatsoever.

As for hands free kit etc, I'm not debating how safe it is on the roads, just that it is permitted and I can't see the difference between phoning someone whilst driving a train for a personal conversation and having a chat with another driver who is sitting next to me.
 
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A-driver

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SETCommuter said:
Again, if you have nothing to worry about, why are you so worried about it.

Do your managers have time to sit and watch cctv waiting to catch a driver out ? If so then there's a bigger problem with the industry than it first appears. The idea is that it would be used to respond to issues - to clear drivers of wrongdoing as well as to highlight issues.

It sounds as though the bigger issue is how the companies manage cctv rather than cctv itself.
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As I keep saying, it's down to an invasion of privacy and a completely needless thing to do in the first place. And yes, managers would find time to monitor us and find things to pick us up on as senior managers move the goalposts and change policies dumping it onto DMs to then enforce. As I say, it would start off as a tool for investigating incidents but would start to be used for other things over time, exactly the same as the data recorder now is-that should be there to investigate accidents, not to check how economically the driver is driving, or pull them up for using step 3 on the brake too many times in a trip etc.
 
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A-driver

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Class377 said:
@A-Driver - I think the main objection to personal phonecalls that I have isn't a safety-based one, but more that it seems to be a personal activity undertaken whilst on-the-job and so seems slightly wrong. Of course, you're still driving the train and doing what you're paid to do, but if I was to buy my groceries and see the shopkeeper on the phone to his wife whilst serving me I wouldn't be happy!
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I don't disagree about the shop keeper but you can't compare a train driver to a shop keeper. A train driver isn't customer facing and isn't there to talk to you anyway. As long as the driver still does their duties what difference does it make to a passenger?

I'm not saying I think we should be allowed to make phone calls whilst driving but just that it isn't quite the serious safety breach some people on here are implying. We don't even know yet if phone usage was the cause or even a contributing factor in the Spain crash do we? And I am merely pointing out that there are very similar tasks to using a mobile phone which train drivers do whilst driving and which are completely within the rules.
 
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jon0844

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I would say that it looks quite likely the phone usage was a contributory factor, we just don't know how big.

However, as I asked before, how do the Spanish people take this compared to us? Here, you can't use a phone, so it's easy to jump to conclusions if you hear someone was on their mobile. There it wasn't illegal and by all accounts, sounds quite normal, thus being on the phone doesn't necessarily mean anything significant.

I rarely talk on the phone when driving (and I use hands-free) but when I do, the road takes priority. If I need to concentrate, I'll tell the other person to wait a second or just ignore them (stop talking and/or listening). My eyes remain on the road, as I'm not holding my phone and having to faff around with that and changing gears etc.

For anyone that just talks on as normal, I can see why studies have claimed hands-free to be just as dangerous, but that doesn't have to be the case (IMHO).

In any case, besides still seeing loads of people on their phones when driving (cars, vans etc), I am now seeing more people texting (spotted this in my rear view mirror many times, sadly always women too) while driving and even a fair few people wearing massive beats audio headphones, which must really help you get closed off from your surroundings.
 
transmanche

transmanche

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A-driver said:
And do you really think that providing a forward view is worth the industry spending money on?
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How expensive is a pane of glass?

A-driver said:
I don't really see what is so interesting about seeing e forward view either, most if the best views in a train are I side windows anyway.
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Don't ask me why. All I can tell you is that it is popular... with everyone! As I said before; on the Metro (and on DLR) the forward view seats are the first seats to be taken.

A-driver said:
Plus this thread is about watching the driver to check they aren't using a phone, not about providing a forward facing view for the punters so I think people are talking about monitoring the driver actually.
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Quite clearly not. From the first page of this thread:

bronzeonion said:
I wouldn't mind windows behind the cab, not for checking up on the driver but for the best view in the train!
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And I entered this particular sub-conversation in response to:
BestWestern said:
We also have the issue of trains regularly vapourising a variety of nature's creations, ranging from flies and pigeons to cattle and human beings. It makes rather unpleasant viewing and is not something that people should be given front row seats for
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... nothing to do with with monitoring the driver.

A-driver said:
Again, you are still only justifying this from an enthusiasts point of view.
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Not at all. I'm not 'justifying' anything. Merely explaining to you what happens day in and day out.

A-driver said:
As for hands free kit etc, I'm not debating how safe it is on the roads, just that it is permitted and I can't see the difference between phoning someone whilst driving a train for a personal conversation and having a chat with another driver who is sitting next to me.
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Common sense should tell you that they are very different. A person sitting next to you in a car will know when you are having to make complex manoeuvres (e.g. negotiating a roundabout) and can stop talking. A person on the phone can't do that. The same is doubtless true in a train cab.

The simple fact is that you don't like the idea of being watched at work. That's OK. I can't see you ever being forced to do it. But you don't need to try and justify with nonsense about safety cases, or expense, or whatever. That just weakens your argument

All I've done is provide counter-evidence and explanation. I'm not arguing for full-scale implementation of gwindows into cabs. Merely explaining that all the 'operational' reasons given so far to justify not having them are nonsense.
 
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A-driver

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jonmorris0844 said:
I would say that it looks quite likely the phone usage was a contributory factor, we just don't know how big.

.
Click to expand...

With respect, what do you base that on? What other information other than what you have read in the papers do you have access to on this? And how credible are newspapers as a course of reliable info? Even the papers have had confused mixed reports on weather it was a personal or company phone and weather it was a call made in the line of the drivers duties-what I am getting at is that there are reports the driver was speaking to the controller at the time, no different to me speaking to the signaller whilst driving a 100mph train.
 
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A-driver

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transmanche said:
How expensive is a pane of glass?

Don't ask me why. All I can tell you is that it is popular... with everyone! As I said before; on the Metro (and on DLR) the forward view seats are the first seats to be taken.

Quite clearly not. From the first page of this thread:



And I entered this particular sub-conversation in response to:
... nothing to do with with monitoring the driver.

Not at all. I'm not 'justifying' anything. Merely explaining to you what happens day in and day out.

Common sense should tell you that they are very different. A person sitting next to you in a car will know when you are having to make complex manoeuvres (e.g. negotiating a roundabout) and can stop talking. A person on the phone can't do that. The same is doubtless true in a train cab.

The simple fact is that you don't like the idea of being watched at work. That's OK. I can't see you ever being forced to do it. But you don't need to try and justify with nonsense about safety cases, or expense, or whatever. That just weakens your argument

All I've done is provide counter-evidence and explanation. I'm not arguing for full-scale implementation of gwindows into cabs. Merely explaining that all the 'operational' reasons given so far to justify not having them are nonsense.
Click to expand...

Funnily enough it's not just the expense of fitting a bit of glass, there is a bit more to it than that. And people seem to get on fine at the moment without seeing out the front of trains so I can't really see why this is something that reds discussing or addressing anyway.

And this topic is about monitoring drivers, despite what sub-topics have come out of it.
 
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petersi

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A-driver said:
As I say, it would start off as a tool for investigating incidents but would start to be used for other things over time, exactly the same as the data recorder now is-that should be there to investigate accidents, not to check how economically the driver is driving, or pull them up for using step 3 on the brake too many times in a trip etc.
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If you have Data recorders I do not see that CCTV in the CAB will add anything to safety as the Data recorder will record if the train is been driven in a safe manor. Its much easier to analyse Data from recorder in a sensible manor than CCTV which is always open to interpretation and can just confuse issues.
 
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jon0844

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A-driver said:
With respect, what do you base that on? What other information other than what you have read in the papers do you have access to on this? And how credible are newspapers as a course of reliable info? Even the papers have had confused mixed reports on weather it was a personal or company phone and weather it was a call made in the line of the drivers duties-what I am getting at is that there are reports the driver was speaking to the controller at the time, no different to me speaking to the signaller whilst driving a 100mph train.
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I said 'looks quite likely' which hopefully means it's clear I'm giving an opinion based on the facts that have been reported, and I believe the papers there (which might be better than here) are just publishing official statements, not personal opinions.

I've not drawn any conclusion or tried to post any 'case closed' argument - although I have given my own opinion and expressed fears, such as how the Spanish authorities can assure people there couldn't be a repeat after just re-opening the line.

Slightly off topic, there's a new 'zip wire' that has been built in a nearby park. During 'testing' it had an open day for staff working for the local authority (which paid for it) and associated companies (trusts etc). Someone fell, and the site was closed pending the necessary health and safety investigations. Now this week I hear the council wants to open it before the results are known, as it needs to start making money. That also concerns me, as it shows a disregard for safety by just carrying on business as normal.

To me, unless we can put 100% of the blame on the driver, there's still a risk on that curve. Likewise, until we can know why staff didn't safely secure someone on a new adventure park (rumoured to be simply down to lack of training and observation), I believe there's a risk to future users of the zip wire.

As for CCTV in the cab, no union is going to accept it - but you'd have to admit that it could help if used solely after an incident. But I fully understand not wanting to be monitored at random times. I doubt it's anything to worry about, although one day I guess you can say it's inevitable - especially as a train can monitor pretty much everything you do anyway.
 
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petersi

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jonmorris0844 said:
As for CCTV in the cab, no union is going to accept it - but you'd have to admit that it could help if used solely after an incident. But I fully understand not wanting to be monitored at random times. I doubt it's anything to worry about, although one day I guess you can say it's inevitable - especially as a train can monitor pretty much everything you do anyway.
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Even in the the Spanish case CCTV is not the best way of checking the facts. Far better to check Sim cards and phone company logs provide exact time Etc.

Employers are not allowed to Monitor CCTV on the off chance of catching an employees out http://www.ico.org.uk/upload/documents/cctv_code_of_practice_html/appendix3.html

Given that trains have data recorders there is no justification IMO for CCTV
 
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SETCommuter

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A-driver said:
As I keep saying, it's down to an invasion of privacy.
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You are at work - it most certainly is not an invasion of privacy.

Can I assume that lots and lots of guards have been disciplined since cctv has been installed on-board the trains ? I would therefore also assume that managers currently spend hours upon hours watching guards and scrutinising their every move ? Also, I'm amazed there are any station staff still around as they too are in front of cctv all day every day yet that doesn't seem to be an invasion of privacy.
 
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petersi

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SETCommuter said:
You are at work - it most certainly is not an invasion of privacy.

Can I assume that lots and lots of guards have been disciplined since cctv has been installed on-board the trains ? I would therefore also assume that managers currently spend hours upon hours watching guards and scrutinising their every move ? Also, I'm amazed there are any station staff still around as they too are in front of cctv all day every day yet that doesn't seem to be an invasion of privacy.
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If employers did this the employee could take them to tribunal.

Monitoring CCTV for staff disciplinary Matter is against the IOC code.

Monitoring CCTV for staff and Passenger safety is acceptable. Using CCTV in public area could be part of the duty of care an employer has to ensure staff and public are safe. The cab of the train does not have members of the public in it.

ICO provide a code of practice for Use of CCTV. If they do not follow it if a case goes to industrial tribunal they could well loose the case.
CCTV in the work place is not unregulated.
 
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GodAtum

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I doubt any drivers in the UK would be silly enough to use their mobile phone or be sleeping tbh.
 
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Dave1987

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There are no CCTV cameras in cabs and there are unlikely to be any in the future.
 
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A-driver

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SETCommuter said:
You are at work - it most certainly is not an invasion of privacy.

Can I assume that lots and lots of guards have been disciplined since cctv has been installed on-board the trains ? I would therefore also assume that managers currently spend hours upon hours watching guards and scrutinising their every move ? Also, I'm amazed there are any station staff still around as they too are in front of cctv all day every day yet that doesn't seem to be an invasion of privacy.
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Those are different things as said by the above poster and yes-a CCTV pointing directly at me whilst in a private drivers cab with the possibility if it being watched is an invasion of privacy. There are already many other ways we can be picked up on CCTV in the cab-forward facing on passing trains, station CCTV etc and there is no need for this at the moment. Should there be a string if incidents which CCTV could have prevented/helped in the investigation then it would be installed but currently there is no need for it-unless you have evidence to the otherwise?

Public areas are completely different to private areas with regard to CCTV.

Plus I would add that guards have been disciplined over CCTV evidence in the past, one infact was caught smoking in the middle cab by the forward facing CCTV in the other unit. Guards and staff being disciplined over CCTV is certainly not unusual.
 
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trickyvegas

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OwlMan said:
What about a photo of a journalist driving whilst using his phone?:)
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How about a photo of a Journalist properly researching a story before going to print.

I have the upmost respect for drivers (and guards) as their primary function is safety, which is of a very high standard in this country. Many of the delays experienced are normally due to maintainence of rolling stock/track equipment or trespass/cable theft which is beyond their control.

I think they deserve their salary as they have to make lifestyle choices in terms of meeting shift and medical requirements that most of us don't have to do in our own jobs.
 
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jon0844

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trickyvegas said:
How about a photo of a Journalist properly researching a story before going to print.
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From the sound of it, this is exactly what happened.

The story was - do our train drivers use their mobiles?

The research showed, no, they do not.

That was reported. That was the story. Not as sensational as they might have hoped, but still a story.

Killing the story or misleading people by saying something like, 'well just because we didn't catch anyone doesn't mean they aren't doing it' or similar would be another story.

Journalists deserve a lot of what they get, but not everything. Nor is every journalist out to make stuff out for a better story. In fact, most definitely do not and are just as frustrated as everyone else.
 
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notadriver

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SETCommuter said:
You are at work - it most certainly is not an invasion of privacy.

Can I assume that lots and lots of guards have been disciplined since cctv has been installed on-board the trains ? I would therefore also assume that managers currently spend hours upon hours watching guards and scrutinising their every move ? Also, I'm amazed there are any station staff still around as they too are in front of cctv all day every day yet that doesn't seem to be an invasion of privacy.
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As a SETCommuter do you feel that CCTV driver monitoring would improve your service. You gave an example of lorry drivers not belting up and accidents being reduced due to CCTV. Can you really say the same of train drivers ? How many of the lorries in the firm you work exceed the 30 mph limit in towns and 40 mph limit on single lane A roads as a matter of routine even if its only by 5 mph? I bet they all do if you analysed their tachographs. Take your average dual carriageway - speed limit 50 mph for HGVs. I bet most will be doing 56 mph (or however fast the limiter lets them). Now a train example. Speed limit 90. Train has just reached 90 and the driver has shut off power. No speeding and no speed limiter. We are professional so no need for CCTV either.
 
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SETCommuter

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I never said it would improve my service. But CCTV (used in the correct manner) can be be immensley useful in accident investigation - did the driver fall asleep? Was the driver looking forwards or down at the floor etc - all the "other stuff" that the tachograph (or similar) doesn't show.

Again, CCTV, if used correctly, is not there to trap people, it is often used to clear them. A good example of this is somebody complaining that one of our drivers was yelling at them and making rude hand gestures - a look back at the CCTV shows nothing of the sort happening and the driver being cleared completely.

Similarly, I have seen CCTV inside the cab of one of our lorries where the driver got in and drove off without his seatbelt - later on, it shows the driver braking hard and then the camera go off suddenly. I'm sure I don't need to explain what happened in detail, but it should be enough to make every one of our drivers wear their seatbelt correctly.

By the way - I should clarify that when I say CCTV, what I am talking about is "video recording" ie not monitored in real time so there would have to be a valid reason and a need to review footage rather than spying on employees.
 
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notadriver

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I can assure you that investigations into safety of the line incidents with train drivers are done far more thoroughly than with road vehicles. The whole process a driver has to go through in the event of an incident is already stringent. If a driver has a SPAD it may be several weeks before they drive a train again and even then initially under supervision. If a road driver does it (jumps a red light and there isn't an accident) the most they will get is a fine and points.

What I'm trying to convince you is that we already have strict rules and procedures and CCTV just isn't necessary. Train drivers and their attitude towards work is very different to lorry drivers.
 
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Dave1987

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If a train driver drove through the amount of red lights that motorist do then we would not have a job. Having a SPAD is a serious incident and goes on your driving record for life. If all the motorists I see going through red lights had to go through the same process that we have to then maybe they think twice!!
 
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A-driver said:
To be honest if they put windows in (which they won't) then people will just hang their coats over it or find some other way of blocking it up.
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If there were windows in the cab door the cranks will be queuing to video the view and post it on YouTube within minutes.
 
Silv1983

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I don't understand all this talk about people wanting to see out the front of a train. Im sure they exist - but the view to the side is far more colourful and varied. I have to glance sideways occasionally (only when safe of course!) to invigorate my senses with colour and a change of scenary. I suppose it is interesting to see the view out the front, say, when approaching a busy terminus station - but that's the exception.
 
Bevan Price

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A-driver said:
To be honest if they put windows in (which they won't) then people will just hang their coats over it or find some other way of blocking it up. As has been said, drivers over here don't want people watching them and I see no reason why we should have an audience-and no one here has yet come up with a reason why either.
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The view through the front & rear windows of first generation dmus was sometimes highlighted in BR publicity to attract passengers to scenic routes.

Have some drivers something to hide from passengers ?
 
142094

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Tyne and Wear Metro stock all have a double seat at the front of each car. Nice to have but not a necessity.
 
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notadriver

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Bevan Price said:
The view through the front & rear windows of first generation dmus was sometimes highlighted in BR publicity to attract passengers to scenic routes.

Have some drivers something to hide from passengers ?
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No we are just professionals who want to do our job without being spied on.
 
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A-driver

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Bevan Price said:
The view through the front & rear windows of first generation dmus was sometimes highlighted in BR publicity to attract passengers to scenic routes.

Have some drivers something to hide from passengers ?
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Nope-nothing to hide but I still don't want a load of punters watching me do my job.

Plus it will lead to drivers feeling pressurised to work quickly if they have to deal with something, fix a fault, inspect the line etc. There are times during disruption when asked to perhaps do an unusual shunt and I will usually spend a few minutes looking it up in my route guide before moving. If you have a load of punters watching you and banging on the window for you to hurry up and stop mucking about reading books etc then it could lead to drivers rushing and making mistakes. Only today I held up a train by a little but whilst I grabbed some water from my bag in the heat-we were stopped at a station but all the rush hour commuters would have been tutting and moaning if they saw that I was delaying their train whilst I got something to drink!

Plus, what business is it of the public to watch me work exactly? Still no one has justified having a window into the cab except that 'Newcastle metro does it' and 'it would be good to see where we are going'. Neither if those are reasons.
 
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Tomnick

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There isn't (or wasn't, last time I travelled on one) a view into the cab on the T&W Metro cars - only forward from the front seats on the six-foot side of the saloon. They're next to the cab, which is fully enclosed but doesn't extend across the full width of the vehicle.
 
Silv1983

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A-driver said:
Nope-nothing to hide but I still don't want a load of punters watching me do my job.

Plus it will lead to drivers feeling pressurised to work quickly if they have to deal with something, fix a fault, inspect the line etc. There are times during disruption when asked to perhaps do an unusual shunt and I will usually spend a few minutes looking it up in my route guide before moving. If you have a load of punters watching you and banging on the window for you to hurry up and stop mucking about reading books etc then it could lead to drivers rushing and making mistakes. Only today I held up a train by a little but whilst I grabbed some water from my bag in the heat-we were stopped at a station but all the rush hour commuters would have been tutting and moaning if they saw that I was delaying their train whilst I got something to drink!

Plus, what business is it of the public to watch me work exactly? Still no one has justified having a window into the cab except that 'Newcastle metro does it' and 'it would be good to see where we are going'. Neither if those are reasons.
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Took the words right out of my mouth.
 
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