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Use of force by RPIs / RPOs

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sheff1

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Note that staff only have to 'reasonably believe' you are in breach of the byelaws - even if after the fact it's determined you haven't broken them.

But surely someone employed to check tickets cannot 'reasonably believe' a perfectly valid ticket is invalid when the NRCoC are explicit on the matter ?

They might, indeed, believe it to be invalid but, in my view, that belief is not reasonable. If 'amateurs' can read and understand the Routeing Guide perfectly well then it is not at all reasonable when 'professionals' are seemingly incapable of doing so.
 
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Llanigraham

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So RJ, they didn't "beat you up" or "break every bone in your body", but in fact used legal reasonable force to detain you in the course of their duty, which you took umbrage at.
You really do come over as a barrack room lawyer sometimes!
 

RJ

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So RJ, they didn't "beat you up" or "break every bone in your body", but in fact used legal reasonable force to detain you in the course of their duty, which you took umbrage at.
You really do come over as a barrack room lawyer sometimes!

I never said they did. The power of detention is given by Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. I showed a valid ticket and also volunteered my name and address. I don't agree with you that they had any legal right to enforce a detention, although I am willing to be corrected. In any case they weren't trying to detain me, they were trying to remove me, which is something quite different.

I do not wish to turn this into a thread about me. I was sharing an experience which goes some way to demonstrate the way one TOC uses the byelaw and the TOC's, plus the BTP's stance on "reasonable force." If anyone wants to comment on what I've posted, please PM me and I will respond.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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There are not all that many "link" instances shown on postings on this website where the amendments at the end of the link are more in length than the body matter itself.

I found the constant "to-ing and fro-ing" to establish the relevant points somewhat disconcerting.
 

WillPS

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I absolutely cannot believe the criminals who did what they did to RJ are still at large.
 

RJ

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Can't call them that - according to the BTP, they had a valid defence for their actions, so it was legally permissible. Just be wary that given it happened to me, the same thing can happen to anyone, anywhere on the railways.

Southeastern haven't made any attempt to apologise for their actions - it would very much seem that they were in support of what they did.
 
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island

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Unfortunately and with great reluctance I am forced to conclude that the staff in question have not, in my opinion, committed an offence. The test of reasonableness is not a very high bar, and it appears to me they had a reasonable, albeit wrong, belief that RJ's ticket was invalid.

Morally and in all other aspects I agree with WillPS's "thug" classification, and it shows that the law is an ass.
 

Flamingo

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Well, my reading of it is not that they were trying to detain RJ, but to remove him from from the train after he had refused a request to leave the train by a member of traincrew.

I occasionally have cause to ask people to leave a train, either because of a ticketing irregularity, or their behaviour. If they leave, at a manned station, when requested to do so, then there is usually no need to involve any kind of security.

If the ticket (or combination of) is only valid because of an exploitation of loopholes in the routeing guide (RJ's discription, not mine) then this kind of scenario is liable to happen every so often, and could be seen as an ocupational hazard.
 
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WelshBluebird

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Well, my reading of it is not that they were trying to detain RJ, but to remove him from from the train after he had refused a request to leave the train by a member of traincrew.

I occasionally have cause to ask people to leave a train, either because of a ticketing irregularity, or their behaviour. If they leave, at a manned station, when requested to do so, then there is usually no need to involve any kind of security.

If the ticket (or combination of) is only valid because of an exploitation of loopholes in the routeing guide (RJ's discription, not mine) then this kind of scenario is liable to happen every so often, and could be seen as an ocupational hazard.

I can't agree with that at all.

If someone has valid tickets for their journey, then it is totally unacceptable that they are asked to leave, let alone be manhandled in such a way.
Infact I would say that the behavior that RJ is saying that is potentially legal isn't acceptable even for people who are clearly trying to evade a fair.
 

Flamingo

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I could give you several scenarios where passengers either have, or think they have, valid tickets, but I would feel quite within my rights to ask them to leave the train.
 

WelshBluebird

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I could give you several scenarios where passengers either have, or think they have, valid tickets, but I would feel quite within my rights to ask them to leave the train.

I am assuming you mean due to other behaviour? Certainly if someone is acting up or being a disturbance or being threatening etc then I agree.

But I am talking about purely ticketing issues (as was the case with RJ).
If the person is calm, nonthreatening, polite, etc. Hasn't done anything to warrant being kicked off, then being treated like that because the RPI think's the ticket is not valid is just plain wrong.
 
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jon0844

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I think RJ is far from abusive (from the way he describes things on here). In fact, I think because he makes sure not to do anything to give staff an excuses, some get really frustrated and goad him into doing something.. and when he doesn't rise to it, it gets worse.
 

Flamingo

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Well, with RJ, the member of staff believed the unusual combination RJ presented was invalid.

If RJ had left the train as asked, and sorted it out with Southern / Passenger Focus etc (he knows what pathways better than I do), it would have defused the situation, where security were not involved until after he refused to leave (according to him).

It takes two to tango.
 
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WelshBluebird

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Well, with RJ, the member of staff believed the unusual combination RJ presented was invalid.

If RJ had left the train as asked, and sorted it out with Southern / Passenger Focus etc (he knows what pathways better than I do), it would have defused the situation.

It takes two to tango.

But if someone has valid tickets, then they should not be asked to leave the train. The RPI's can look it up if they can be bothered to (or at the very least ask someone else to). Or I am sure there are other methods of dealing with a ticket you do not think is valid (but don't know for sure) that do not involve kicking someone off the train.
 

Flamingo

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But if someone has valid tickets, then they should not be asked to leave the train. The RPI's can look it up if they can be bothered to (or at the very least ask someone else to). Or I am sure there are other methods of dealing with a ticket you do not think is valid (but don't know for sure) that do not involve kicking someone off the train.

There are options, I didn't say that there weren't. This was not RPI's dealing with RJ, they do have more options. It's not a question of staff "not being bothered", but if an option involved RJ studying routing guides night after night to find the loopholes, how do you expect a guard on a train to replicate this research in a few minutes?

Anyway, I'm NOT getting into another discussion about RJ, I try to avoid them.

My point is that things are not as black and white as some people think.
 
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Deerfold

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There are options, I didn't say that there weren't. This was not RPI's dealing with RJ, they do have more options. It's not a question of staff "not being bothered", but if an option involved RJ studying routing guides night after night to find the loopholes, how do you expect a guard on a train to replicate this research in a few minutes?

Probably because RJ seems to be quite happy to share his working when required. If the guard will let him.
 

mark46245

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I think we all know that RJ does not do anything that is incorrect or not valid. He uses the system to his advantage and good luck to him. If I could do the same, I would. We also know that he is never abusive, does not raise his voice and behaves in a perfectly acceptable manner. This, of course, gives rise to others getting hot tempered because he is so composed. Why should he be ejected from the train because someone thinks his ticket or combination of tickets is not valid? He is always ready to explain the validity. All they have to do is consult available information to establish the validity or not. Furthermore, does reasonable force include breaking his spectacles, damaging his laptop and pouring a soft drink over him? I also believe his ethnicity causes people some problems which I don't want to go into. If I saw or was subjected to the kind of treatment that is being described here, I would complain to the highest authority in the strongest possible manner. In this day and age it is not right. If RJ had got off, he would have been delayed for who knows how long and all to prove he was correct all along. Not a good advert for the railway or those members of staff. They should be ashamed!
 

455driver

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RJ takes easements to their unth degree and wonders why he has problems, the easements are there for a particular reason which RJ latches onto and uses for other things it was not intended for.
Is he correct? yes even if the reasoning is wafer thin.
Is it morally correct? No comment.

Of course what happens then is TOCs remove the easements because they are losing money and the people whom the easements are actually aimed at end up out of pocket, but hey ho somebody has saved a few quid.
 

ainsworth74

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Actually, as far as I'm aware, most of the time he isn't using easements but mapped routes...
 

RJ

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RJ takes easements to their unth degree and wonders why he has problems, the easements are there for a particular reason which RJ latches onto and uses for other things it was not intended for.
Is he correct? yes even if the reasoning is wafer thin.
Is it morally correct? No comment.

Of course what happens then is TOCs remove the easements because they are losing money and the people whom the easements are actually aimed at end up out of pocket, but hey ho somebody has saved a few quid.

I think it is reasonable for staff to question me. I will engage in a civil, educated conversation with them if they're prepared to listen. If they wish to take details and fill out a report of irregular travel then I won't object.

I think it's unreasonable for them to commit me to a debt, demand money that I do not owe or tell me that I have to get off a train. Sometimes it would appear that staff forget what it's like to be a customer and get carried away where their pride takes precedence over their better judgement.

In this case, I held a ticket from Canterbury to Tilbury, avoiding London. No loopholes of any kind involved.
 

tony6499

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If this is the occasion where RJ had offered to show on his laptop the routing guide to the Conductor, the one that was recorded, then there is no excuse not to sit down and listen to RJ and his explanation.

If that had happened then nothing else needed to have been done and things could have gone on without delay.
 

LateThanNever

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Can't call them that - according to the BTP, they had a valid defence for their actions, so it was legally permissible. Just be wary that given it happened to me, the same thing can happen to anyone, anywhere on the railways.

Southeastern haven't made any attempt to apologise for their actions - it would very much seem that they were in support of what they did.

The Police enforce the law but do not of course have the end say. Generally in my experience at least they know that most of the time the law is an ass so will downplay conflicts almost however unfair. As I understand it even Railway bylaws do not put the situation above Common Law where the concept of reasonableness is held in high esteem. But that means probably to get anywhere you have to make a Police complaint or institute 'human rights' action which is difficult expensive and time consuming. In the end it is probably (legally) better not to 'cooperate' and to stand your ground and not move/ get off the train...
 

Flamingo

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I think we all know that RJ does not do anything that is incorrect or not valid. He uses the system to his advantage and good luck to him. If I could do the same, I would. We also know that he is never abusive, does not raise his voice and behaves in a perfectly acceptable manner. This, of course, gives rise to others getting hot tempered because he is so composed. Why should he be ejected from the train because someone thinks his ticket or combination of tickets is not valid? He is always ready to explain the validity. All they have to do is consult available information to establish the validity or not. Furthermore, does reasonable force include breaking his spectacles, damaging his laptop and pouring a soft drink over him? I also believe his ethnicity causes people some problems which I don't want to go into. If I saw or was subjected to the kind of treatment that is being described here, I would complain to the highest authority in the strongest possible manner. In this day and age it is not right. If RJ had got off, he would have been delayed for who knows how long and all to prove he was correct all along. Not a good advert for the railway or those members of staff. They should be ashamed!
We don't know any of these things. All we have is one side of a story. I've never come across RJ, either socially or professionally, so I have no bias one way or another (he doesn't operate on my patch). But I have serious concerns about how one person has had so much bad luck.

I know several Rail staff who BTP have had no compunction in hauling over the coals and to the very steps of the courts over unfounded malicious accusations of assault from fare-dodgers, even when there was CCTV and independent witness statements confirming the staff's story, and in one case the victim refused to make further statements or attend court, but this did not deter BTP from pushing it as hard as they could. BTP are obliged to investigate any complaint of assault, and a complaint to the police ombudsman could be made if a refusal to deal with any complaint was seen as a cover-up.
 
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sheff1

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RJ takes easements to their unth degree and wonders why he has problems, the easements are there for a particular reason which RJ latches onto and uses for other things it was not intended for.

I see you are aware of the reasons for easements and also what they are not intended for. Presumably this information is contained in internal documentation.

It would be helpful, in that case, if the people who publish the Routeing Guide made it clear therein how the easements can, and can not, be used. The removal of ambiguity always reduces the potential for conflict ... although, of course, there will always be the few who will not beileve the evidence of their own eyes.
 

RJ

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We don't know any of these things. All we have is one side of a story. I've never come across RJ, either socially or professionally, so I have no bias one way or another (he doesn't operate on my patch). But I have serious concerns about how one person has had so much bad luck.

It isn't bad luck. The staff who tell me to get off trains/issue me with notices judge me on factors which I have no control over. I don't know what they are, but I know what they aren't. It certainly isn't what comes out of my mouth or how I behave towards them. It isn't my profession either - the fact that I ever worked on the railways often seems to upset them. I've lost count of the number of ticket inspectors that have told me that I'd be losing my job/never work for the railways again. The OBM in this case was one of them.

I made several trips to and from the Valleys in the summer and also travelled from London to Hereford - who knows, I might have been on one of your trains!

There are options, I didn't say that there weren't. This was not RPI's dealing with RJ, they do have more options. It's not a question of staff "not being bothered", but if an option involved RJ studying routing guides night after night to find the loopholes, how do you expect a guard on a train to replicate this research in a few minutes?

Any ticket inspector has the option of requesting details and noting down which tickets were used, then forwarding to the relevant department so they can follow it up. In fact, some staff have and I respect them for it. I do read the reports that staff at various TOCs submit internally (I don't like secrets) - here is an example of one. Page 1, Page 2.

Whilst that guard chose to deal with it in that way, colleagues of hers have gone down the road of demanding money from me or trying to get me off the train. This demonstrates that guards do have a choice and have power over how easy or difficult they make the situation. This guard may have challenged me, but I respect the way she handled the matter.

Unfortunately I do also have reports submitted by staff which suggest an inability to write concisely and with accuracy, which might explain why some of them reject my offer of providing details and would sooner have me do things that generate no paperwork for them, such as giving them money or getting off a train of my own accord. I have others which if used as evidence in a court of law, would be tantamount to perverting the course of justice. Some ticket inspectors on the railways will admit when not in front of customers that they will reject a ticket they think is valid but don't like, whilst others will confirm that they don't have a clue about the validity of the tickets but thought it was best to issue a Penalty Fare anyway.

Recordings and CCTV also prove to be useful. I record all kinds of things that happen in a day in my life such as buses I've been a passenger on crashing into other vehicles - if I felt it was necessary, I'd also share more footage of how these people misbehave.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and unfortunately the byelaws can be enforced by people who don't have a clue what they're doing.
 
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WillPS

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Honestly those scans utterly beggar belief. The 'valid but not acceptable to me' one in particular. Who the hell do they think they are!?

I presume these have been obtained through DPA requests?

The manner in which that communication in particular is written seems to as if to please a superior; which strengthens my opinion that there's something rotten at EMT...
 

notadriver

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We don't know any of these things. All we have is one side of a story. I've never come across RJ, either socially or professionally, so I have no bias one way or another (he doesn't operate on my patch). But I have serious concerns about how one person has had so much bad luck.

I have to agree with Flamingo. How can one person have such bad luck? There must be loads of other people using trains as often as RJ does and not having problems on what seems to be a daily basis. RJ you should play the lottery because with your luck I reckon you'd win :)
 

RJ

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I have to agree with Flamingo. How can one person have such bad luck? There must be loads of other people using trains as often as RJ does and not having problems on what seems to be a daily basis. RJ you should play the lottery because with your luck I reckon you'd win :)

A lot of it seems to be down to a small number ticket inspectors with a certain mindset not wanting to listen to someone my age. Once they make their mind up (which is done before I open my mouth) then that's it. I can't do much about that but to be honest, between my four jobs, social life and hobbies, I don't have much time to think about why, or care for that matter.

I play the lottery when I remember to buy a ticket, which is almost never. I must go to sleep now as I'm in the ticket office in the morning :)
 
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swj99

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The case of Wood -v- DPP (2008) makes interesting reading if you want to look at the question of restraint and assault.

I remember many years ago hearing a conversation in which a local hard case boasted that he would sometimes cross the road in order to hit people. It was quite correctly pointed out to him that it was only a matter of time before he picked on the wrong person, ie someone who would turn round and hit him back a lot harder. The 'hard case' was remarkably quiet after this. Perhaps many people already realize the risks involved and avoid physical confrontation for this very reason.

The more I see of life, the more I think violence is best avoided unless there's absolutely no other option. This is because there are plenty of nutters around these days and you never know for sure who they are, or what they're going to do.
Some people will fall on the floor after one punch, and die, while others will refuse to stay down. And it's hard to tell which is which, until it's too late. Look that happened when Ian Tomlinson was pushed onto the floor by PC Simon Harwood

There was a drunken fight in Chichester in the 1980s one lunchtime. The police arrived, and one participant stepped back, while the other completely flipped, and fought the police officers off. At first, there were just two officers and they just couldn't get near him. It was like watching one of those cartoons where everything's a blur, and you can't tell who's who. Then a couple of plain clothes officers arrived to try and help. This wasn't enough either, and after a few more minutes, the area car arrived, because a traffic warden had called for assistance. There were now six officers but it still took them another minute to get some handcuffs on the guy and put him in the back of the police car. The point about this is that at first, it just looked like two middle aged blokes drunkenly pushing each other about, and you really can't tell what someone is like, or what they're capable of. This is probably why so many people don't want to risk getting involved nowadays.

There is no specific definition of reasonable force anyway, and each case is decided on it's own merits. To put this into perspective, society seems to be getting more tense and there's too much violence happening already without adding to it.
I briefly worked in retail about 20 years ago, and a store manager one day asked me to keep an eye on some people who he said were down from London, nicking things. I said if he wanted a security guard, then fair enough, get one, but it wasn't me. Turns out they stole some stereo speakers, but I wasn't about to get stabbed for trying to stop them doing it. I've broken up a few fights over the years, but I still question whether it was worth it. You never get thanked for it, and as with most forms of physical violence, there's always the risk that you could end up getting charged with an offence yourself. Another thing is that it's often the wrong person who ends up getting hurt.

I think what's needed is for more people to take the non confrontational approach. After all, there have been cases of shop assistants and others in public facing roles, getting injured trying to protect revenue, money and items of property.
Isn't health and human life worth more than the cash float in a till, some tat from a shop, or the price of a train ticket ?
 
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