WatcherZero
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Yes Liverpool possible in the future but at the moment the 10 350's arent even enough to operate a 100% electric service.
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Yes we seem to be faced with the usual minimalist approach to any investment in the North, just like 3-car instead of 4-car for the 185s. If the order had been for any comparable route in the South-East they would have anticipated growth and ordered 15 units, enough to service Liverpool as well. I suppose we should not grumble too much, at least it is a start.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
You may recall the original proposal for something new to go on Northampton-London services which could use faster paths and TPE to get cascaded 350/1s. However, making the 350/1s 110mph capable meant they could use faster paths but LM wanted more 350s so TPE got 350s anyway as an add-on opposed to a cascade.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
If, as I suspect, the long-term fleet for TPE services north west of Manchester is 3 by 23m then an hourly service splitting for Liverpool/Manchester and Edinburgh/Glasgow would make good sense. As well as providing hourly links either direct or by walking through the train (end gangwayed units please!) it would offset the loss of capacity due to the slightly shorter units.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Well Network Rail are to lengthen platforms to allow the Manchester to Leeds semi-fasts to be operated by 333s or something else of the same length as a 333 such as a 332, a 380 or a new design EMU of the same length.
I seem to recall reading a while back now that based on the forecast for North TPE growth at least 24 carriages per hour would be needed on Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds by 2018, with 6tph that works out as an average of 4 carriages per train.
I think Network Rail were envisaging 8 car workings leaving Scotland for Manchester/Liverpool but TfGM are saying the Manchester portions will need to be 5 or 6 cars not 4 cars to cope with demand.
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tbtc
Veteran Member
The current TPE services to Glasgow/ Edinburgh are fairly quiet north of Preston during the week (unlike the Liverpool to Newcastle TPE corridor, there's not a lot of population in the middle of the journey to fill trains).
They do get very busy at weekends though with the leisure market (inc the summer tourism for the Lake District). So hard to know what length of train would be appropriate.
I suppose that if Manchester - Bolton - Preston becomes something like four 319s per hour (with a further three 319s doing Manchester - Bolton - Wigan) then that'll create a lot more capacity for "local" passengers from Manchester, unlike the situation pre December where the Scottish services were rammed with short distance passengers from Piccadilly, due to the lack of space on local trains for local people. Hopefully this'll allow the TPE service to be more for longer distance passengers.
They do get very busy at weekends though with the leisure market (inc the summer tourism for the Lake District). So hard to know what length of train would be appropriate.
I suppose that if Manchester - Bolton - Preston becomes something like four 319s per hour (with a further three 319s doing Manchester - Bolton - Wigan) then that'll create a lot more capacity for "local" passengers from Manchester, unlike the situation pre December where the Scottish services were rammed with short distance passengers from Piccadilly, due to the lack of space on local trains for local people. Hopefully this'll allow the TPE service to be more for longer distance passengers.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I don't know. In school holidays (especially the last half-term before the summer holidays) a lot of long distance passengers seem to use the Hazel Grove-Preston service between Stockport and Preston and people joining at Manchester Oxford Road have little chance of getting a seat even when it's a 4 car 150 on some services.
Stopping at Scottish services at Wigan now means they are the only fast Wigan-Manchester services and it seems a lot of people are using them as a local service, with the loadings just as high as when they went via Bolton.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
This was to be expected, once the timings became common knowledge.
It seems that the NW to Scotland trains now face the same problem as TPE between Liverpool and York, i.e. it is difficult to segregate long distance from more local interurban traffic. Longer trains would obviously help but this leaves excess capacity at the middle or outer ends of the routes. The only other options I can think of are expensive, more track capacity with the long distance trains making major stops only and allow them to pass semi-fasts and locals, with cross platform interchange at places like Bolton, Preston and Huddersfield.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
In a few years time there is expected to be 4tph between Victoria and Leeds via Huddersfield with Huddersfield being the only intermediate calling point. The Liverpool-Newcastle trains will also run Liverpool-Victoria non-stop. Stalybridge and Dewsbury will be served by the Piccadilly-Leeds semi-fasts which will run half-hourly.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Nobody's doubting that longer distance services see a rise in the school holidays, I'm trying to explain that the TfGM suggestion of six coach trains is going to be overkill north of Preston most of the time.
Especially as the service looks like it'll be hourly in future (has been mainly just every two hours under Virgin and TPE) and there'll be a significant capacity increase on "local" Manchester - Bolton - Wigan/ Preston services with electrification.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
looks like one of them has already had some "livery" applied :roll:
Not my picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/61502487@N04/11775122536/
Not my picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/61502487@N04/11775122536/
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If there's little demand for Preston-Scotland then why have Virgin introduced 9 car Pendolinos on their busier services between Birmingham and Scotland in lieu of 5 car Voyagers?
If you've looked at TPE's timetables in the last couple of years you'll have noticed that for most of the day Manchester Airport to Scotland runs at the same frequency as Manchester Airport to Newcastle, which is what most people call an hourly service with a couple of gaps in it.
Will there? What's going to be replacing the 4 car Sprinter combinations on the busiest services between Manchester, Bolton and Preston? Or do you mean the quieter trains will get extra capacity that's not needed because the 4 car EMU can't be split at the end of the busy period in the same way a pair of Sprinters can?
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swt_passenger
Veteran Member
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Already covered in this thread a few days ago I'm afraid. I also think there is a good argument for not repeatedly linking to photos of this sort of vandalism...
I don't know how many journeys you make on TPE north of Preston, but that is simply not true.
Quite apart from the actual anglo Scottish journeys being made, at stations between Preston and Carlisle there is variously commuter traffic, schools/college traffic, local traffic from Lockerbie as Virgin don't stop there most of the day, local traffic between northern WCML stations as Virgin do not stop at all intermediate stations Preston-Carlisle on each train and so on.
Single unit 185s don't cope for many services, and single unit 350s will also struggle because despite the extra carriage they don't have that many more seats.
Yes, there are less foreign tourists in the winter, but that just equates to more chance of getting a seat for local travellers and less people standing along the way.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Extra capacity from Birmingham to Crewe/ Warrington/ Wigan?
Easier to run one through service from London to Scotland than a London - Wolverhampton and a Birmingham - Scotland service?
Fewer trains required?
The fact that they have more 390s nowadays (and it means fewer Voyagers under the wires)?
Its generally the fastest way from Sheffield up to Glasgow, so a fair bit. TPE are also good at offering cheap "advance" tickets on Scottish services, which gives an indication of how quiet it is midweek.
Monday to Thursday its fairly quiet north of Preston, compared to other TPE routes. The relatively low number of passengers at Oxenholme/ Lockerbie etc don't make much difference.
At the weekend you can be standing, especially when Scots are heading to Blackpool, but it can depend on how close the next 390 is (the poor scheduling means that you can get a busy 185 running just ahead of a 390 with plenty of spare seats).
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
There's also an imbalance between Glasgow and Edinburgh.
From a historic WCML point of view, Edinburgh has been the poor relation in terms of frequency and capacity.
These days the demand to/from Edinburgh has shot up relative to Glasgow.
Virgin have responded with the 390/double Voyager solution, but the frequency is the same (alternate, basically).
TP are also trying to increase frequency to Edinburgh, as well as providing the greater capacity of 350s over 185s.
Nevertheless, you can have packed Edinburgh services in one hour and lightly loaded Glasgow trains in the other.
Flighting trains also means you have 3 Anglo-Scots services close together, then a fair gap for freight until the next hourly flight.
From a historic WCML point of view, Edinburgh has been the poor relation in terms of frequency and capacity.
These days the demand to/from Edinburgh has shot up relative to Glasgow.
Virgin have responded with the 390/double Voyager solution, but the frequency is the same (alternate, basically).
TP are also trying to increase frequency to Edinburgh, as well as providing the greater capacity of 350s over 185s.
Nevertheless, you can have packed Edinburgh services in one hour and lightly loaded Glasgow trains in the other.
Flighting trains also means you have 3 Anglo-Scots services close together, then a fair gap for freight until the next hourly flight.
So from that snippet, you are probably making good use of TPE's cheap advances to/from Glasgow, and if so it follows from your own words above, travelling on the quietest services (although don't forget the other reason for cheap advances is that TPE get to keep all the cash) to Glasgow, the destination that has most services overall north of Preston, and thus seeing a less than full picture of TPE north of Preston.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
Agreed. Single 185s are defo not the solution and as pointed out, 350s woant entirely solve things but its a mark of how busy the trains are that the diagram for the Edinburgh 350 includes the 10:08 from EDB Which is almost always full and standing on departure, mainly with foalk on advances. Its almost like they sell 2.5 coaches from 3 at rock bottom A P rates and to hell with anyone else! Anyone with a choice on this route uses Virgin instead as TPE is to say the least, grim!↲
It does sound bad, but unlike the (not quite the same, but with some similar characteristics) overcrowding issue on LM Crewe to London services, people standing on Advances would get compensation!
northwichcat
Veteran Member
There's been an increase in the number of Voyagers used between Birmingham and Euston though.
Well in October (so not in the height of summer or when the Christmas markets were in) there were many Manchester bound services at Preston on Saturdays which had passengers standing on arrival at Preston and had more passengers standing on departure from Preston.
One other thing to note is they'll be less Barrow-Manchester services when Scotland-Manchester goes to a full hourly service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you look at the timings it's almost as though the intention is for Wigan to Manchester/Airport passengers to stop using the Southport-Airport service and use the Scotland-Airport instead.
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tbtc
Veteran Member
Maybe you didn't notice the bit when I mentioned being on standing-room-only services?
If you are referring to you travelling on standing room only services, I did miss that.
If you are referring to your words "At the weekend you can be standing.........", I saw that but didn't think you were referring to yourself as the comment comes over as a generalisation .
Maybe you would like to enlighten us as to how often and which days of the week you do travel on TPE north of Preston/up to Glasgow and back?
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Can anyone confirm if the 10:08 Edinburgh to Manchester service on Tuesday 14th January will be 350 worked or 185. I am booked on this service using an advance but on my seat reservation ticket it only displays coach*** seat*** so im just wondering if there is no booked traction yet. Thanks in advance
Philip
On Moderation
Looking ahead to May, once the full order has been delivered and accepted, I'd expect to see a list of 350 diagrams something like this, Mon-Thurs:
1. 05:58 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 10:08 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 14:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 18:12 Edinburgh-Man Piccadilly/Airport
2. 07:25 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 12:12 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 16:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 20:12 Edinburgh-Man Piccadilly
3. 07:00 Man Airport-Glasgow, 11:09 Glasgow-Man Airport, 15:00 Man Airport-Glasgow
4. 07:09 Glasgow-Man Airport, 11:00 Man Airport-Glasgow, 15:09 Glasgow-Man Airport, 19:00 Man Airport-Glasgow
5. 05:-- Glasgow-Man Airport, 09:00 Man Airport-Glasgow, 13:09 Glasgow-Man Airport, 17:00 Man Airport-Glasgow
6. 06:15 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 10:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 14:16 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 18:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh
7. 08:12 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 12:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 16:12 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 20:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh
8. 09:-- Glasgow-Man Airport, 13:00 Man Airport-Glasgow, 17:06 Glasgow-Manchester
Some of those services don't currently exist though it seems likely they will do come May to accommodate the 15 trains per day each way. Currently the 11:00, 15:00 and 19:00 departures from the Airport go to Barrow. Also going off the draft timetable in the tfgm documents, the 22:00 Man Airport-Barrow won't run from May. With two 350s booked on the depot each day it seems 185s will only be needed for extra strengthening rather than to cover for shortages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's currently booked as a 350 working though don't be surprised if a 185 turns up.
1. 05:58 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 10:08 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 14:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 18:12 Edinburgh-Man Piccadilly/Airport
2. 07:25 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 12:12 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 16:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 20:12 Edinburgh-Man Piccadilly
3. 07:00 Man Airport-Glasgow, 11:09 Glasgow-Man Airport, 15:00 Man Airport-Glasgow
4. 07:09 Glasgow-Man Airport, 11:00 Man Airport-Glasgow, 15:09 Glasgow-Man Airport, 19:00 Man Airport-Glasgow
5. 05:-- Glasgow-Man Airport, 09:00 Man Airport-Glasgow, 13:09 Glasgow-Man Airport, 17:00 Man Airport-Glasgow
6. 06:15 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 10:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 14:16 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 18:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh
7. 08:12 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 12:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh, 16:12 Edinburgh-Man Airport, 20:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh
8. 09:-- Glasgow-Man Airport, 13:00 Man Airport-Glasgow, 17:06 Glasgow-Manchester
Some of those services don't currently exist though it seems likely they will do come May to accommodate the 15 trains per day each way. Currently the 11:00, 15:00 and 19:00 departures from the Airport go to Barrow. Also going off the draft timetable in the tfgm documents, the 22:00 Man Airport-Barrow won't run from May. With two 350s booked on the depot each day it seems 185s will only be needed for extra strengthening rather than to cover for shortages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's currently booked as a 350 working though don't be surprised if a 185 turns up.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Managed a ride on 350 403 today from Lancester to Manchester Airport.
Comfortably full, pleasant ambience, 8 late.
You do notice the quiet after the noisy 185 engines, but otherwise it's just another Desiro.
Not that impressed by the ride. In fact the class 323 "pocket rocket" I got onwards from Manchester Airport to Crewe was much more stable at speed.
The Northern drivers must enjoy the 100mph Alderley Edge-Holmes Chapel dash.
At MIA more people got on the 350 for the 1400 return journey than got off, but it's hard to know how many were going beyond Manchester.
The curse of the 350 gangway connection means there is only a small front-end destination display.
It just said "Manchester" which is rather ambiguous.
The side display was able to show the full destination.
Disappointing that the TP crews kept it in arrival mode until just before departure.
Many people wanting to board were put off by the "Manchester" displays still running.
Also disappointing to find an empty 185 parked up at the buffers in front, apparently going to form the 1600 to Edinburgh.
This left most of the 350 out in the wind and rain.
The adjacent TP departure to York left nearly empty.
If you want to know where there is spare capacity on the network, it's between Piccadilly and the Airport.
I also noticed a Barrow-Preston TP 185 at Lancaster with only a handful on board.
Circumstantial I know.
350 402 was parked up at Preston, its Carlisle ECS runs cancelled.
Where is 350 401?
Comfortably full, pleasant ambience, 8 late.
You do notice the quiet after the noisy 185 engines, but otherwise it's just another Desiro.
Not that impressed by the ride. In fact the class 323 "pocket rocket" I got onwards from Manchester Airport to Crewe was much more stable at speed.
The Northern drivers must enjoy the 100mph Alderley Edge-Holmes Chapel dash.
At MIA more people got on the 350 for the 1400 return journey than got off, but it's hard to know how many were going beyond Manchester.
The curse of the 350 gangway connection means there is only a small front-end destination display.
It just said "Manchester" which is rather ambiguous.
The side display was able to show the full destination.
Disappointing that the TP crews kept it in arrival mode until just before departure.
Many people wanting to board were put off by the "Manchester" displays still running.
Also disappointing to find an empty 185 parked up at the buffers in front, apparently going to form the 1600 to Edinburgh.
This left most of the 350 out in the wind and rain.
The adjacent TP departure to York left nearly empty.
If you want to know where there is spare capacity on the network, it's between Piccadilly and the Airport.
I also noticed a Barrow-Preston TP 185 at Lancaster with only a handful on board.
Circumstantial I know.
350 402 was parked up at Preston, its Carlisle ECS runs cancelled.
Where is 350 401?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The 16:00 is a portion working for Windermere/Edinburgh, the 17:00 is a portion working for Glasgow/Barrow while the 18:00 is a portion working for Edinburgh/Windermere and there's also a 17:29 Barrow/Blackpool portion working so they probably do need to leave 185s there, which also gives them more options if a unit fails earlier on.
Eagle
Established Member
Yep, that's a common "feature" of all 350 and 450s. Gets particularly bad when they have to show a destination of more than ten letters (Wolverhampton, Northampton, Basingstoke, Bournemouth, and so on).
Ardwick at the moment, I think.
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