How long might it take to reopen the line near Stonehaven?

[Swanny200]

If the ballast and everything associated has fallen away that would need to be redone, the bridge repaired and everything checked, how long usually would repairs take and would there be a push to get it done as quickly (and safely) as possible seeing as it is part of the ECML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Network Rail have estimated 21st August.

 

[A0wen]

If the ballast and everything associated has fallen away that would need to be redone, the bridge repaired and everything checked, how long usually would repairs take and would there be a push to get it done as quickly (and safely) as possible seeing as it is part of the ECML.

Bit tenuous to say it's part of the ECML - served by a couple of ECML trains perhaps.

Historically it isn't classed as ECML - you've got Edinburgh - Berwick which was NBR, Berwick to Shalftholme as NER and Shalfholme to London as GNR.

 

[30907]

Bit tenuous to say it's part of the ECML - served by a couple of ECML trains perhaps.

Historically it isn't classed as ECML - you've got Edinburgh - Berwick which was NBR, Berwick to Shalftholme as NER and Shalfholme to London as GNR.

And historically Kinnaber Jn to Aberdeen was Caledonian so WCML

 

[pdeaves]

Network Rail have estimated 21st August.

Bearing in mind the clear-up required before repairs even start, I think that would require a phenomenal effort. Just to be clear, phenomenal efforts can and do happen but I would not be surprised if the date ended up pushed back.

 

[DB]

Is there sufficient road access to get heavy lifting gear and large enough lorries in to remove the train? I seem to recall that at Grayrigg they had to build a temporary access road for this.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Bearing in mind the clear-up required before repairs even start, I think that would require a phenomenal effort. Just to be clear, phenomenal efforts can and do happen but I would not be surprised if the date ended up pushed back.

Indeed. I was thinking evening of Monday 31 August or possibly Tuesday 1st September.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is there sufficient road access to get heavy lifting gear and large enough lorries in to remove the train? I seem to recall that at Grayrigg they had to build a temporary access road for this.

Is it possible like they did with that Class 66 Loco that stuff gets cut up on site?

 

[InOban]

I read that there have been issues with mudslides in the area before. They would be better doing a proper job to modern standards which will take months.

 

[bluenoxid]

I read that there have been issues with mudslides in the area before. They would be better doing a proper job to modern standards which will take months.

Yes but only if the design work has been done (I doubt that there are any plans), otherwise the line could be shut for many months with no activity on site whilst the design and surveying is done.

 

[DB]

Is it possible like they did with that Class 66? Loco that stuff gets cut up on site?

You mean the one beside the loch? They wanted to get that one out whole (it was barely damaged), but the ground wasn't solid enough for them to be able to get in or use the heavy lifting gear needed. I doubt if that would apply here.

A 66 is also quite a bit heavier than an HST power car.

 

[Swanny200]

I was always led to believe that it was part of the ECML my mistake, the latest drone footage does show some kind of access down to the bottom of the bridge where the power car came to rest, you would need a lot of heavy plant down there to rectify things

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read that there have been issues with mudslides in the area before. They would be better doing a proper job to modern standards which will take months.

There are issues with mudslides at all sorts of random locations due to the very wet weather we've been having. They can't rebuild the whole network and have openly said as much. More likely it will be repaired normally, possibly with some shoring up, and we may see lower speed limits in such conditions.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Is it possible like they did with that Class 66? Loco that stuff gets cut up on site?

This option might well depend on if the investigation team has finished with the stock or wants it recovered “in tact” for further investigation at a later date. After Hatfield some of the more badly damaged stock was encased in scaffolding to allow removal. If the investigation team have finished with the stock then cutting up on site seems very likely, only the rear power car and carriage look anywhere near repairable, added to which there is a lot of spare HST stock available elsewhere.

 

[DB]

This option might well depend on if the investigation team has finished with the stock or wants it recovered “in tact” for further investigation at a later date. After Hatfield some of the more badly damaged stock was encased in scaffolding to allow removal. If the investigation team have finished with the stock then cutting up on site seems very likely, only the rear power car and carriage look anywhere near repairable, added to which there is a lot of spare HST stock available elsewhere.

The rear coach looks to have structural damage at the far end from the power car, plus probably underneath. Only the rear power car really looks like it might be salvaged.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bit tenuous to say it's part of the ECML - served by a couple of ECML trains perhaps.
Historically it isn't classed as ECML - you've got Edinburgh - Berwick which was NBR, Berwick to Shalftholme as NER and Shalfholme to London as GNR.

The Engineers Line References (ELR) tell a different story.
They are ECMx from Shaftholme Jn to Edinburgh, and then ECNx (presumably East Coast North) to Aberdeen.
The former Kinnaber Jn is where the ELR changes from ECN4 to ECN5, with a jump in mileage to show that from Carlisle rather than that from Dundee.

 

[InOban]

There are issues with mudslides at all sorts of random locations due to the very wet weather we've been having. They can't rebuild the whole network and have openly said as much. More likely it will be repaired normally, possibly with some shoring up, and we may see lower speed limits in such conditions.

Given the low level of traffic for the foreseeable future I would rather NR took a bit longer and did a proper job.

 

[InOban]

You're being a bit pedantic. Obviously there are national holidays. But the spring and autumn holidays in Edinburgh are on the third weekend in May and September, the Glasgow ones are a week later (so the spring one coincides with the English holiday - but it's been on that date long before the English settled on that date.)
There are also lawyers holidays which are different again!

 

[BigB]

The latest reopening date for Dundee to Aberdeen is 2nd September, which assumes that there is not a repeat of the weather we recently saw.

That weather also caused a major collapse of the Union Canal

Storm leaves 30m hole in Union Canal

Aerial images show the extent of the breach which has resulted in the closure of Scotland's busiest railway line.

www.bbc.co.uk

And that has cut off the main line between Edinburgh and Glasgow, although there are still a number of options to travel between the two. The latest date for this reopening is also 2nd September.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You mean the one beside the loch? They wanted to get that one out whole (it was barely damaged), but the ground wasn't solid enough for them to be able to get in or use the heavy lifting gear needed. I doubt if that would apply here.

A 66 is also quite a bit heavier than an HST power car.

Much of the equipment from the Loch Trieg 66 was salvaged and re-used or added to spares floats. The engine was used in one of the last batches of 66s to be ordered, IIRC after the deadline for new engines of that design had passed. Because the engine already existed, it wasn't subject to the environmental regulations that prevented new builds.

This option might well depend on if the investigation team has finished with the stock or wants it recovered “in tact” for further investigation at a later date. After Hatfield some of the more badly damaged stock was encased in scaffolding to allow removal. If the investigation team have finished with the stock then cutting up on site seems very likely, only the rear power car and carriage look anywhere near repairable, added to which there is a lot of spare HST stock available elsewhere.

Recovering the vehicles without compromising the forensic data will be a very difficult task in that location. An option might be for RAIB experts to go over the wreckage and formation on site with a fine-toothed comb and photograph everything. Once everything has been documented, the site can then be handed over to contractors for rebuilding and for the wreckage to be cut up on site much like the 66. If that's the approach taken, reopening might be measured in months rather than weeks.

 

[DB]

Much of the equipment from the Loch Trieg 66 was salvaged and re-used or added to spares floats. The engine was used in one of the last batches of 66s to be ordered, IIRC after the deadline for new engines of that design had passed. Because the engine already existed, it wasn't subject to the environmental regulations that prevented new builds.

The engine was used in the green one (the last one built). Cabs used to make similators for training - it was carefully dismantled rather than the usual scrapping process.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The engine was used in the green one (the last one built). Cabs used to make similators for training - it was carefully dismantled rather than the usual scrapping process.

Couldn't remember which loco got the donor engine, cheers. Is it not the case that engines from locomotives are occasionally swapped out anyway for refurbishment or repair? Think that was done with older diesels back in the day.

 

[Ken H]

Why is the whole line from Dundee to Aberdeen closed?
Surely they could run an aberdeen-stonehaven shuttle, and run trains to Montrose.
That would cut a load of bus mileage.

 

[DB]

Couldn't remember which loco got the donor engine, cheers. Is it not the case that engines from locomotives are occasionally swapped out anyway for refurbishment or repair? Think that was done with older diesels back in the day.

Think those are designed to be maintained in situ. Some classes are as you say designed that engines are swapped when a major overhaul is needed - Deltics were probably the first, but also applies to HST power cars. Possibly 68s too?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why is the whole line from Dundee to Aberdeen closed?
Surely they could run an aberdeen-stonehaven shuttle, and run trains to Montrose.
That would cut a load of bus mileage.

Depends on if there's other weather damage elsewhere, such as the initial landslip which caused the accident train to reverse in the first place. Coupled with the Covid situation it's probably easier to just use buses for the time being.

 

[pdeaves]

Why is the whole line from Dundee to Aberdeen closed?
Surely they could run an aberdeen-stonehaven shuttle, and run trains to Montrose.
That would cut a load of bus mileage.

According to Realtime Trains (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...14/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt) the line is open south/west of Arbroath.

 

[Ken H]

According to Realtime Trains (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...14/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt) the line is open south/west of Arbroath.

Um
national rail disruptions say line closed between Dundee and Aberdeen, but departures say there is an hourly between Edinburgh & Arbroath.

 

[pdeaves]

Um
national rail disruptions say line closed between Dundee and Aberdeen, but departures say there is an hourly between Edinburgh & Arbroath.

I'm not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing! Trains are reaching Arbroath from the south/west (i.e. via Dundee) so the whole line from Dundee to Aberdeen isn't closed. National Rail is admittedly poorly worded.

 

[marks87]

Um
national rail disruptions say line closed between Dundee and Aberdeen, but departures say there is an hourly between Edinburgh & Arbroath.

The Edinburgh-Arbroath is still running, but the main interchange for a replacement bus is Dundee.

There is of course nothing stopping people from getting the train to Arbroath and picking the bus up there, but Dundee is better equipped for buses to wait while there's mass (to the extent it is "mass" during COVID) mode swapping.

 

[InOban]

It would be better if they could run through Montrose to Laurencekirk, which is next the main A90, unlike Montrose and Arbroath. Otherwise it's easier to bus them from Dundee.