Driving mountain passes. Over or under?

[Howardh]

I suppose this is more discussion that transport, but a chat on another thread made me wonder, with all the rail and road tunnels now available in the Alps (booo...) would you still drive over the top, and which is your favourite/most scary etc? Includes everywhere including the UK!

Think the Susten was my fave in Switzerland, Gotthard got all the attention and all the tourist traffic leaving it heaving at the top. Susten you could park, get out and play around in the snow in early July!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I should like to cycle up, right to the top, many Alpine passes have quite gentle gradients, but going down is hazardous, I should get the train or bus down

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have time, without a doubt over. If you're in a hurry, without a doubt under. I absolutely love driving mountain passes (the Hardknott/Wrynose being a UK favourite, though admittedly nothing on any of the European ones) but you never, ever want to be doing it to the clock, you need to take your time, respect other drivers (including those who have made mistakes and need your help to get out of them) and enjoy it.

 

[ac6000cw]

If the weather is OK and I've got the time, definitely over rather than under.

I've not driven over any of the Alpine passes, but of the railway routes I've traveled the Gotthard and Lötschberg passes are my favourites.

Of the ones I've driven over outside of Europe, Kicking Horse Pass in Canada (between Lake Louise and Field) is pretty spectacular, especially as you almost slither down the steep western side of it (the side with the Spiral Tunnels on the railway to keep the gradient to a just manageable 2.2% - whereas the road goes straight down...).

 

[eMeS]

I've done a few of the high Alpine passes - some within the last 20 years, others before I was a parent; so 50 years ago.
I can recommend driving over the Gotthard Pass and that from Zwieselstein, Austria to Northern Italy, the Timmelsjoch. There was snow by both roads in June / July.
There's two routes from Innsbruck, Austria to Northern Italy. That via the autobahn/autostrada over the Europabrucke, and the old road which goes underneath the Europabrucke, and gives spectacular views of it; and in Northern Italy the autostrada strides over once remote villages using spectacular viaducts.
Keep an eye open for information plaques at hostelries etc. We lunched in an old Austrian hotel where Napoleon had been active 200 years ago; and at Lienz in Austria learnt about a much more recent massacre of Cossacks.

 

[thejuggler]

Madeira had some amazing mountain passes, now largely replaced by tunnels, to such an extent that until recently the longest road tunnel in Portugal was on Madeira.

Unfortunately in building the tunnels they closed many of the original passes.

 

[Howardh]

If you have time, without a doubt over. If you're in a hurry, without a doubt under. I absolutely love driving mountain passes (the Hardknott/Wrynose being a UK favourite, though admittedly nothing on any of the European ones) but you never, ever want to be doing it to the clock, you need to take your time, respect other drivers (including those who have made mistakes and need your help to get out of them) and enjoy it.

Hardknott/Wrynose is a tough one for a first-time driver! Although the altitude is tiny by comparison to the Alps, it is quite a challenge if a driver's not used to them. Quite steep in places too!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I read a recommendation for driving in the mountains: one should use the same gear for ascent as for descent
Third mostly I guess
Is it possible to descend with little use of the footbrake?

 

[paul1609]

If you have time, without a doubt over. If you're in a hurry, without a doubt under. I absolutely love driving mountain passes (the Hardknott/Wrynose being a UK favourite, though admittedly nothing on any of the European ones) but you never, ever want to be doing it to the clock, you need to take your time, respect other drivers (including those who have made mistakes and need your help to get out of them) and enjoy it.

Bealach na Ba (the original pass to Applecross) is the best UK one to my mind preferably in winter sunshine and a smattering of snow at the summit!

Conquer Bealach na Bà: Scotland's Most Scenic and Challenging Mountain Road

Bealach na Bà is a winding mountain road located in the Applecros

www.dangerousroads.org

 

[ac6000cw]

I read a recommendation for driving in the mountains: one should use the same gear for ascent as for descent
Third mostly I guess
Is it possible to descend with little use of the footbrake?

Yes, just pick a gear that provides enough engine braking to provide the descent speed that you need. It's not hard to do with a little practice.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hardknott/Wrynose is a tough one for a first-time driver! Although the altitude is tiny by comparison to the Alps, it is quite a challenge if a driver's not used to them. Quite steep in places too!

1 in 3 gradient in old money. Quite fun when travelling uphill out of Cockley Beck towards Eskdale (via Hardknott) when you temporarily can't see the road surface in front of you across the top of your car's bonnet (just sky!) No alternative tunnel (obviously) and the A595 coastal route can seem a very long way round.

 

[cactustwirly]

I read a recommendation for driving in the mountains: one should use the same gear for ascent as for descent
Third mostly I guess
Is it possible to descend with little use of the footbrake?

It depends on the gear ratios of the car, 3rd in my car would probably be very harsh on the engine braking.
Although I'd reccomend the brakes rather than the engine to slow down, as you have more control.

 

[Robertj21a]

It depends on the gear ratios of the car, 3rd in my car would probably be very harsh on the engine braking.
Although I'd reccomend the brakes rather than the engine to slow down, as you have more control.

As long as you don't get brake fade.

 

[Meerkat]

The Alpine passes are amazing, have done so many I couldn’t list them. Do some internet research as some of the best aren’t the most famous or obvious in a road atlas.
The most amazing I have done is the Großhochalpenstrasse in Austria, absolutely amazing views.
Stelvio is a monster, it’s pretty tiring just driving it with all those hairpins - I couldnt believe how many looneys were riding up.
All the directions out of Andermatt are spectacular, the Furka, Grimsel, Susten loop being brilliant driving entertainment, and the Nufenen has huge empty mountain views (and don’t forget to stop on the Furka to walk the tunnel inside the glacier!)
Wasn’t that big a fan of the French passes but the Col de la Bonette is stunningly remote, and very very high and precipitous (then you find that some poor soldiers had to man fortresses up there!)
It’s really hard to plan trips, as ideally you need to follow the good weather (not a lot of point being up there in the clouds and rain) and hard to judge timings. The passes are actually quite short so you can cover a load of them in a day, but you can’t judge purely on mileage as it’s highly dependent on how many times you just have to stop and take photos (it will be a lot!).
If you enjoy driving and can afford it driving round the Alps is an absolute must, I couldn’t recommend it more - I would have done even more if blooming France didn’t make it such a long drive out there (though still possible in a day from the South East). Go in September, before the winter tyre regs in October, but after the schools have gone back - the roads are pretty empty and if your budget isn’t too tight you can use Hotels.com/Booking.com to find hotels as late as that afternoon so you can be really flexible where you go.

 

[Shrewbly]

I didn't get a choice on the Gotthard on one occasion because the tunnel was closed. I was driving a loaded Transit with a trailer. It was very memorable - especially when I ran out of brakes and had to use an escape road for the first time in my life!

 

[eMeS]

As long as you don't get brake fade.

Driving an automatic, I was always conscious of this risk, and put my gearbox in to one of its lower gears, where engine braking operated. (Am not certain all autos offer this, I was driving a Borg Warner style auto.)

 

[ac6000cw]

All the directions out of Andermatt are spectacular, the Furka, Grimsel, Susten loop being brilliant driving entertainment, and the Nufenen has huge empty mountain views (and don’t forget to stop on the Furka to walk the tunnel inside the glacier!)

Many years ago, before the Furka base rail tunnel was opened I rode on the Glacier Express over Furka pass - it was quite a spectacular (rack assisted) ride with the top of the pass being over 7000' altitude...the line over the pass had to be closed for some of the winter (and the OHLE dismantled), which was the main reason for building the tunnel.

Driving an automatic, I was always conscious of this risk, and put my gearbox in to one of its lower gears, where engine braking operated. (Am not certain all autos offer this, I was driving a Borg Warner style auto.)

Every automatic I've driven offers this, and modern computer controlled auto 'boxes appear to detect that you're going downhill and will change down automatically to provide some engine braking.

As long as you don't get brake fade.

Quite (although disc brakes are much better in that regard than drum brakes) - hence the 'Use low gear' signs on long steep hills, albeit primarily aimed at drivers of heavier vehicles.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Hardknott/Wrynose is a tough one for a first-time driver! Although the altitude is tiny by comparison to the Alps, it is quite a challenge if a driver's not used to them. Quite steep in places too!

1 in 3 in places but fantastic experience

 

[Meerkat]

1 in 3 in places but fantastic experience

When we were walking in the Lakes I suggested we drive over Hardknott/Wrynose. The driver was not impressed!
”This isn’t a road!! We shouldn’t be allowed up here!”

 

[eMeS]

When we were walking in the Lakes I suggested we drive over Hardknott/Wrynose. The driver was not impressed!
”This isn’t a road!! We shouldn’t be allowed up here!”

I've done Hardknott, and I recall Porlock Hill being more scary - particularly on the bend on the way up.

 

[Meerkat]

I've done Hardknott, and I recall Porlock Hill being more scary - particularly on the bend on the way up.

Try small Italian passes with steep hairpins into narrow rock tunnels with little visibility of whether there is an Italian, driving like an Italian, (or a bus!) coming the other way!

 

[Midnight Sun]

Many years ago, before the Furka base rail tunnel was opened I rode on the Glacier Express over Furka pass - it was quite a spectacular (rack assisted) ride with the top of the pass being over 7000' altitude...the line over the pass had to be closed for some of the winter (and the OHLE dismantled), which was the main reason for building the tunnel.

The Steffenbach bridge had to be dismantled each winter and placed into store.

 

[Ostrich]

I've done Hardknott, and I recall Porlock Hill being more scary - particularly on the bend on the way up.

Many years ago, descending Porlock Hill in a Mini, I encountered "brake fade" which became apparent when I drove into a petrol station at the bottom of the hill and all but failed to stop at the pumps!
But the scariest passage I've ever encountered is the road up the side of the Cardingmill Valley from Church Stretton to the top of the Long Mynd. It's steep, but it's not so much the steepness, more the narrowness of the road combined with the absolute sheer precipice on one side of the carriageway ...

 

[eMeS]

... ...is the road up the side of the Cardingmill Valley from Church Stretton to the top of the Long Mynd. It's steep, but it's not so much the steepness, more the narrowness of the road combined with the absolute sheer precipice on one side of the carriageway ...

I didn't know about that one, and it's close to our route when visiting relatives in Mid-Wales. Must check it out, if we're allowed there again... !

 

[Meerkat]

Many years ago, descending Porlock Hill in a Mini, I encountered "brake fade" which became apparent when I drove into a petrol station at the bottom of the hill and all but failed to stop at the pumps!
But the scariest passage I've ever encountered is the road up the side of the Cardingmill Valley from Church Stretton to the top of the Long Mynd. It's steep, but it's not so much the steepness, more the narrowness of the road combined with the absolute sheer precipice on one side of the carriageway ...

It’s a greener version of this (and much nearer the pub)
C1, 04850 Jausiers, France https://goo.gl/maps/SqHoBXMrYaRnNwUi6

link is To google maps view of the Col de la Bonette

 

[Killingworth]

Grossglockner High Alpine Road! We did it in May starting from the south end not long after it had opened for the summer. Look outs were posted along the road for avalanches and we traversed cuttings through snow.

It started bright and sunny, but as we ascended the hairpin bends we went into the mists, with snow starting to fall. I may have stopped at the summit to take photos but can't recall where they've gone. Our Austin Ambassador 2000 was underpowered at that altitude and with 4 aboard and luggage it struggled. At least there was hardly any other traffic as we began to descend the bends through the mists in low gear - not low enough! The brakes were also being used a lot.

There was a wide straight stretch of road before the toll booths - fortunately! I finally stopped at least 100 yards beyond them. After backing up there was no surprise. "It happens all the time" I was told. I've probably delayed a lot of other motorists on Alpine roads since then by grinding down in 2nd gear ever so slowly!

I don't think I'll be driving in the Alps again, but for convenience in getting from A to B I'd take tunnels. For scenery, exhilaration, terror, and driving challenge I'd go over the tops - but not in poor visibity, and taking more care to save the brakes!

I took the Grossglockner because my uncle had done it in the 1950s and most of the others. In 1949 he was driving in Norway. That looks to have been fun!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hardknott/Wrynose is a tough one for a first-time driver! Although the altitude is tiny by comparison to the Alps, it is quite a challenge if a driver's not used to them. Quite steep in places too!

I did it fairly early on in my driving "career". It's certainly challenging, but if you take a patient approach and take breaks when you need to calm down a bit (there are plenty of pull-offs to stop for a minute or two and take in the view) you'll probably be OK. The only vehicle I've taken over it that has had trouble was (perhaps surprisingly) a 1.8 petrol Vectra estate with a load of camping gear in the back - very little weight over the front wheels meant too little grip, I ended up having to let air out of the tyres to start on an uphill section.

That said, I did, last time I went over there, encounter someone having trouble near the start, and I strongly recommended that they went round, as they weren't even stuck on a difficult bit. They did in the end I believe.

One quite fun bit is in the valley section between the two passes you can get a fair lick up if it's quiet because visibility is superb. It feels weird getting to 50-60 on a single track road, but you can literally see clearly for miles.

Grossglockner High Alpine Road! We did it in May starting from the south end not long after it had opened for the summer. Look outs were posted along the road for avalanches and we traversed cuttings through snow.

Wasn't driving, but I went up there in a B-reg Transit (Scout minibus) in about 1998 (so ancient) and we had brake fade on the way down which was a little scary! Had to stop for 10 minutes for them to cool.

Amazes me how many people don't use engine braking. OK, you can't on an auto, but on a manual you can.

 

[Meerkat]

Don’t know about other tunnels but the St Gotthard tunnel is pretty grim.
15+ minutes of trundling along at 50 in continuous traffic, and it’s single carriageway so you have noisy trucks thundering past going the other way.
I got so lost as to whether I was going up or down I put the car in neutral to see what happened!
Whereas the road over the top is fantastic, well over-engineered as it’s the diversion, and you can go looking for the ‘rocks’ with artillery sticking out!

 

[Howardh]

Thing is about Wrynose (that's the one furthest west?) is that you drive over the top and suddenly the Isle of Man is staring at you!! Amazing drive down that western side.

 

[Meerkat]

Amazes me how many people don't use engine braking. OK, you can't on an auto, but on a manual you can.

Don’t the Advanced Driver lot say you shouldn’t use engine braking - brakes are for braking?