• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern / Carlisle Security - unpaid fare, date of birth, threatened with penalty fare.

Status
Not open for further replies.

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
(I am aware of this previous closed thread - Mods., merge if you think that is appropriate - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/carlisle-security-and-northern-rail-major-concerns.156426/ )

This happened to me today, they've now got my date of birth on file, and I'm not happy about the way it was handled.

My journey was from from Romiley to Rose Hill Marple. I've never used either station before. At Romiley I looked for and did not find the ticket office. Looking into the station entrance there are just some dimly-lit stairs which I assumed led up to the Manchester-bound platform. There are no signs that I saw indicating that a ticket office ticket office exists. I have since learned apparently one does: hidden, up the stairs and somewhere around the corner. However, a sign at the doorway says "Access for trains to Marple, Sheffield under roadbridge & left into carpark". So I went under the roadbridge to the Rose Hill-bound platform. Should I have searched harder to find the ticket office? If so, my bad.

There is a ticket vending machine on the Rose Hill Marple-bound platform, which I used to try and buy my £2.40 single ticket. I get as far as inserting my credit card before it pauses for a long time and then says that there is a problem verifying my credit card and advises me to speak to a member of staff. Assuming my credit card may be faulty, I use then use the machine to obtain a Promise to Pay Permit, with the intention of paying either on the train or at Rose Hill Marple.

On the train no one is collecting fares. On arrival at Rose Hill Marple the ticket office is closed. Around six Carlisle Security also got off my train and started inspecting tickets at the station exit. I presented my PtP Permit and a £5 note, asking for a single from Romiley. Firstly, I was asked for my name. I asked why they needed to know my name to buy a train ticket. They said it was because they could not accept cash or card payments so would need to bill me for the fare. I clarified that they were wanting to bill me for just the £2.40 fare and they said yes. Fair enough I suppose, so I willingly provided my name and address.

Next, they wanted my date of birth. Initially I refused to give it, saying that they did not need the information to bill me for the fare owed. A discussion was had about this between the person dealing with me and another of the inspectors. They then said that they would have to issue me with a Penalty Fare if I did not supply my DoB. They said that they were within their rights do this because I should have bought a ticket at Romiley ticket office, which I explained that I looked for and did not find, however they would issue with me with a £2.40 Unpaid Fare Notice if I supplied them with my DoB. Taking the lesser of two evils, I reluctantly gave them my DoB. They said that they needed my DoB "For their records, in case you get caught doing the same again". I was then issued with an Upaid Fare Notice for the £2.40 fare owing.

I'm not happy about the lack of signs to the ticket office at Romiley potentially leaving people open to Penalty Fares or prosecution. I'm slightly annoyed that Carlisle can't take payments so have issue UFNs and collect people's names and addresses. However, I'm fuming that Carlisle Security have demanded and got my date of birth under duress: my understanding is that they have no right to demand this information.

Can they even issue a Penalty Fare if I've got a Promise to Pay Permit? If they can then Northern TVMs shouldn't be issuing PtP Permits at stations during the times that the ticket office is open.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
This is wrong on so many levels. The fact that the ticket office was open is irrelevant in this case - because you were still ultimately issued with a Promise To Pay Notice, which entitles you to board without a ticket.

They had no right to demand your name and address because you were offering to pay the fare due and had proven you had the right to do so on the train/at your destination.

As for your date of birth, they had no legal entitlement to this under any circumstances, and it is unacceptable that they offered you the choice of potentially being prosecuted or being issued with an Unpaid Fares Notice if you have your DoB - it would require careful analysis of the circumstances, but it sounds like as if this could have contravened the GDPR.

That they are told not to take payments on the spot is neither your problem nor your responsibility. Personally, I would have refused to do anything other than pay the fare, but it's understandably easy to feel intimidated into complying when you're faced by 6 often aggressive members of staff.

You should certainly raise a complaint about this with Northern, although I should note that any complaint (and any action arising out of this) will have to be pursued separately to the issues surrounding the UFN itself. It'll be interesting to see how much they want when they post you the UFN...
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,626
Whilst i'll leave others to discuss the fairly frequent issues with these people and the way they operate, in regards to the last point and question. Yes, they will issue a penalty fare if you have a promise to pay if the origin station had other ticketing facilities that were operational at the time, such as a ticket office that accepts cash. Some will likely disagree they should, using some specific wording as an excuse, but the intention at least is to only allow promise to pay where the origin has no facilities that accept cash, despite it being poor form.
As a small aside and not wanting to go off topic so early, the machines (some of them, at least some of them used to) would NOT issue a promise to pay when the ticket office was SUPPOSED to be open. This caused a few problems when ticket offices had unplanned closures and several penalty fares were issued as a result, one of which ended up as a topic on here. I'm not sure if that issue was rectified by issuing them at all times or if it still exists.


Edit : ForTheLoveOf got there first with the opinion i suggested.

It'll be interesting to see how much they want when they post you the UFN...

I get the impression they "suggested" it was just for the fare due. Whether the passenger is forced to call a premium rate number in order to do so remains to be seen.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
Yes, they can issue a penalty fare if you have a promise to pay if the origin station had other ticketing facilities that were operational at the time, such as a ticket office that accepts cash.
Regulation 6(2)(d) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 forbids a Penalty Fare from being issued where:
at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
...
the operator of the train or the station ... indicated that the passenger was ... permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket

I think it would be difficult to argue that a Promise to Pay Notice was anything other than such permission, based on its wording.

The fact that there actually were ticketing facilities available at the boarding station merely means that the exclusion provided under Regulation 6(2)(a) does not come into force - it doesn't override the subsequent exclusion in 6(2)(d). If any of the exclusions are met, no Penalty Fare can be issued.

Some will likely disagree using some specific wording as an excuse
:lol:

but the intention at least is to only allow promise to pay where the origin has no facilities that accept cash
If this was the intention then Northern should have made it so the ability to issue a PtPN is interfaced into the opening of the booking office. As it stands, the issuance of a PtPN overrides the existence of ticketing facilities as a justification for boarding without a ticket.

When Penalty Fares were first introduced and being debated in Parliament, the Permit to Travel (the predecessor of the PtPN) was a safeguard in the system intended to allow honest passengers to indicate their intention to pay the fare, for circumstances including where the booking office was open but there was a long queue. So it isn't entirely correct to say that the possibility of using a PtPN/PtT was excluded when booking offices were open.
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
They said it was because they could not accept cash or card payments so would need to bill me for the fare. I clarified that they were wanting to bill me for just the £2.40 fare and they said yes. Fair enough I suppose, so I willingly provided my name and address.

So what's the procedure if you want to make a return journey and they can't issue you with a ticket?
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,645
Location
Northern England
If this was the intention then Northern should have made it so the ability to issue a PtPN is interfaced into the opening of the booking office.
At many stations, this was the case. However, it was unreliable and sometimes left PtP disabled when the booking office was closed, so it would not surprise me if the feature has been turned off.
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
At many stations, this was the case. However, it was unreliable and sometimes left PtP disabled when the booking office was closed, so it would not surprise me if the feature has been turned off.

The feature has been turned off at stations with no ticket office before e.g. Greenbank.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
I get the impression they "suggested" it was just for the fare due.
Revenue staff will often make such suggestions on the spot, even though they aren't necessarily in control of the process of issuing UFNs etc. (which often include some form of administration fee). This reduces the possibility of conflict although it remains unacceptable on multiple levels to mislead customers in this way, or to make guarantees you cannot uphold.

Whether the passenger is forced to call a premium rate number in order to do so remains to be seen.
If that's the only way of paying (usually there is a link to a website), the OP has a few different alternatives available to them.

They could call the number (having first tried alternative ones for Northern to establish clearly that there is no alternative freephone/basic rate number available), and recover any premium rate charges from Northern through Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. Admittedly Northern are unlikely to make the recovery of such charges easy!

They could tell Northern that they won'tphone chargeable numbers and ask them to provide an alternative means of paying, by cash, as provided for in the NRCoT.

They could deposit the cash for the unpaid fare at the local County Court so as to engage the defence of legal tender (a correct application for once!) and ask Northern to take the money from the Court as payment.

I think I would probably go for option 2 first, and if that is unsuccessful, go for option 1.

At many stations, this was the case. However, it was unreliable and sometimes left PtP disabled when the booking office was closed, so it would not surprise me if the feature has been turned off.
I'm sure there's a way it could have been linked into the ticket office sales system if they really wanted to, so that it's only activated when the sales system is logged off. They're probably very different systems though, and it would likely cost them a lot of money to hire someone to develop an interface between the systems. Certainly far more than the potential lost revenue at stake.

Of course it's easiest of all not to spend the money on developing an interface, whilst also not bothering to supervise contractors to ensure their staff respect the NRCoT and other railway laws.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
I assumed that the Unpaid Fare Notice would be sent in the post and that was the impression they gave when I was asking them why they were wanting for my name and address. However, it was issued on the spot - printed out on a till-roll printer. It was for £2.40 and I have already paid it online, so I assume that that is the end of the matter with respect to the fare owed. It includes the text "The Unpaid Fare Notice was issued as you were unable to provide or pay for a valid ticket for your journey. Issued in accordance with the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and the National Conditions of Travel" and "Offenders Details:".

It's having my name, address and date of birth on some Northern / Carlisle Security database for some unknown period of time, having done nothing wrong (other than failing to thoroughly explore Romiley for its hidden ticket office), and that the details were harvested under duress, that annoys me. Is anyone familiar with the layout Romiley station, is the presence of a ticket office not obvious or was I being a bit stupid in not finding it?

Detained for 5 minutes, made to feel like a criminal and that they were doing me a favour in issuing an UFN when they could of issued a PF instead. Some one with less knowledge of ticketing or less assertive could well have been issued with a PF or even prosecuted. Truth of the matter is that I wanted the ticket as a souvenir, with the line shutting down for 3 months (hopefully) after the weekend. I'd have happily bought one at any opportunity offered. At least I got a souvenir UFN.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,802
The use of the phrase “offender’s details” is a disgrace as well.
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,085
The only reason why DoB may be relevant would be if the OP was using an 18-25 or other age related - railcard, or was seeking a child fare. This was not stated in the opening post, so assume it was not the case.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
Is there any way of knowing if the ticket office was actually open at the time the OP did not find it?
 

Alfonso

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
462
I assumed that the Unpaid Fare Notice would be sent in the post and that was the impression they gave when I was asking them why they were wanting for my name and address. However, it was issued on the spot - printed out on a till-roll printer. It was for £2.40 and I have already paid it online, so I assume that that is the end of the matter with respect to the fare owed. It includes the text "The Unpaid Fare Notice was issued as you were unable to provide or pay for a valid ticket for your journey. Issued in accordance with the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and the National Conditions of Travel" and "Offenders Details:".

It's having my name, address and date of birth on some Northern / Carlisle Security database for some unknown period of time, having done nothing wrong (other than failing to thoroughly explore Romiley for its hidden ticket office), and that the details were harvested under duress, that annoys me. Is anyone familiar with the layout Romiley station, is the presence of a ticket office not obvious or was I being a bit stupid in not finding it?

Detained for 5 minutes, made to feel like a criminal and that they were doing me a favour in issuing an UFN when they could of issued a PF instead. Some one with less knowledge of ticketing or less assertive could well have been issued with a PF or even prosecuted. Truth of the matter is that I wanted the ticket as a souvenir, with the line shutting down for 3 months (hopefully) after the weekend. I'd have happily bought one at any opportunity offered. At least I got a souvenir UFN.
Now you've dealt with the money part, you can exercise your rights under gdpr to see the data they hold on you (subject access request) and then demand anything inaccurate is corrected, and anything they don't legitimately need (which is everything, since you did nothing wrong according to the posts above) is deleted.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,011
(I am aware of this previous closed thread - Mods., merge if you think that is appropriate - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/carlisle-security-and-northern-rail-major-concerns.156426/ )

This happened to me today, they've now got my date of birth on file, and I'm not happy about the way it was handled.

My journey was from from Romiley to Rose Hill Marple. I've never used either station before. At Romiley I looked for and did not find the ticket office. Looking into the station entrance there are just some dimly-lit stairs which I assumed led up to the Manchester-bound platform. There are no signs that I saw indicating that a ticket office ticket office exists. I have since learned apparently one does: hidden, up the stairs and somewhere around the corner. However, a sign at the doorway says "Access for trains to Marple, Sheffield under roadbridge & left into carpark". So I went under the roadbridge to the Rose Hill-bound platform. Should I have searched harder to find the ticket office? If so, my bad.

There is a ticket vending machine on the Rose Hill Marple-bound platform, which I used to try and buy my £2.40 single ticket. I get as far as inserting my credit card before it pauses for a long time and then says that there is a problem verifying my credit card and advises me to speak to a member of staff. Assuming my credit card may be faulty, I use then use the machine to obtain a Promise to Pay Permit, with the intention of paying either on the train or at Rose Hill Marple.

On the train no one is collecting fares. On arrival at Rose Hill Marple the ticket office is closed. Around six Carlisle Security also got off my train and started inspecting tickets at the station exit. I presented my PtP Permit and a £5 note, asking for a single from Romiley. Firstly, I was asked for my name. I asked why they needed to know my name to buy a train ticket. They said it was because they could not accept cash or card payments so would need to bill me for the fare. I clarified that they were wanting to bill me for just the £2.40 fare and they said yes. Fair enough I suppose, so I willingly provided my name and address.

Next, they wanted my date of birth. Initially I refused to give it, saying that they did not need the information to bill me for the fare owed. A discussion was had about this between the person dealing with me and another of the inspectors. They then said that they would have to issue me with a Penalty Fare if I did not supply my DoB. They said that they were within their rights do this because I should have bought a ticket at Romiley ticket office, which I explained that I looked for and did not find, however they would issue with me with a £2.40 Unpaid Fare Notice if I supplied them with my DoB. Taking the lesser of two evils, I reluctantly gave them my DoB. They said that they needed my DoB "For their records, in case you get caught doing the same again". I was then issued with an Upaid Fare Notice for the £2.40 fare owing.

I'm not happy about the lack of signs to the ticket office at Romiley potentially leaving people open to Penalty Fares or prosecution. I'm slightly annoyed that Carlisle can't take payments so have issue UFNs and collect people's names and addresses. However, I'm fuming that Carlisle Security have demanded and got my date of birth under duress: my understanding is that they have no right to demand this information.

Can they even issue a Penalty Fare if I've got a Promise to Pay Permit? If they can then Northern TVMs shouldn't be issuing PtP Permits at stations during the times that the ticket office is open.
I rather hoped that the DfT would give the Carlisle goons the boot but sadly not! I think G4S and Serco run them close in terms of sheer incompetence.

And the government wonder why many commuters are simply not interested in travelling on trains and returning to office when you have to encounter morons like these?
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
Is there any way of knowing if the ticket office was actually open at the time the OP did not find it?

According to Wikipedia "The station was built above street level; its platforms extend over the B6104 road. It has a spiral staircase, which once had a glass-roofed dome. The booking hall (manned 06:20-20:45 weekdays and 07:10-21:35 Saturdays) and offices are on the first floor, with a subway and stairs to the platforms. Ramps are also available for wheelchair users.", which is in agreement with the NRE website.

So yes, the ticket office should have been open at the time, it's just that I didn't find it. Looking at photographs of the station, it's an unusual 3 storey arrangement with the entrance at street level, the ticket office on the first floor along with the subway to the Marple-bound platform, and the Manchester-bound platform on the second floor. You can of course bypass the station building altogether when accessing the Marple-bound platforms from the other side of the roadbridge, which is what I did.
 

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
2,081
I can confirm that there is no signage either at street level or at platform level directing to the ticket office. Platform level signage to the subway simply says way out and buses. There is however a sign by the entrance that Lyndhurst25 used saying this platform for trains to New Mills and Sheffield and that Tickets and trains to Manchester are via subway with steps.

There is however a ticket machine on both platforms and the sign says tickets, not ticket office. There is a poster by the door Lyndhurst25 originally saw the sign directing under the bridge stating ticket office opening hours (although it's a general poster with lots of other information on as well but offering no directions to the office.

It should also be noted that the ticket office itself is only accessible by stairs (despite NRE saying it's wheelchair accessible) so if Lyndhurst25 has mobility issues they would not be able to access it.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
I can confirm that there is no signage either at street level or at platform level directing to the ticket office. Platform level signage to the subway simply says way out and buses. There is however a sign by the entrance that Lyndhurst25 used saying this platform for trains to New Mills and Sheffield and that Tickets and trains to Manchester are via subway with steps.

There is however a ticket machine on both platforms and the sign says tickets, not ticket office. There is a poster by the door Lyndhurst25 originally saw the sign directing under the bridge stating ticket office opening hours (although it's a general poster with lots of other information on as well but offering no directions to the office.

It should also be noted that the ticket office itself is only accessible by stairs (despite NRE saying it's wheelchair accessible) so if Lyndhurst25 has mobility issues they would not be able to access it.

Thanks for checking. I was thinking the same thing about station signs just saying "Tickets" - that could mean either a TVM or a ticket office.

As far as I am concerned I made all reasonable efforts to buy a ticket at for my journey. At Romiley no ticket office visible at or signs to it at street level. At platform level no ticket office visible, only TVMs on both platforms. TVM rejects my credit card, so I request payment by cash option. Promise to Pay Permit issued by machine authorising me to travel and pay on the train or at my destination. No opportunity to pay on train. Ticket office closed at my destination. (TVM at destination is also out of order!).

Under these circumstances there is no way that Carlise Security should be even considering issuing a Penalty Fare (I told them so), even if it was just a bluff to illegally obtain my date of birth, for whatever reason.

I will be writing to Northern asking them why Carlisle Security can't sell tickets and are instead asking for passengers names and addresses, why they are demanding dates of birth when they have no right to do so, for how long and for what purpose all this personal data is stored, and that my data is deleted now that I have paid the UFN.

I'd also like a definitive answer as to whether or not a Promise to Pay Permit counts as written permission to travel without a ticket, regardless of whether there is a ticket office open at the station. There could be be a long queue at the ticket office and a passenger wanting to pay by cash could be forced to get a P2P from the TVM to avoid missing their train. The passenger may not be aware that there is a ticket office at the station, as in my case. The process of obtaining a P2P Permit from the TVM and the wording on the Permit suggest that that is a perfectly allowable thing to do. If the official line is that this is in fact not allowable then the TVM should be telling you to go to the ticket office, when it is open and how to find it, and not spitting out a permit that isn't worth the card it is printed on, in effect entrapping passengers into being issued with a Penalty Fare.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
I'd also like a definitive answer as to whether or not a Promise to Pay Permit counts as written permission to travel without a ticket, regardless of whether there is a ticket office open at the station.
The wording on a Promise to Pay Notice is shown on this photo. The relevant part (which authorises you to travel without a ticket) is that it says "Valid from the above station on date of issue for up to four hours". This is undeniably permission to travel without a ticket for the purposes of the Byelaws and the Penalty Fare Regulations.

The last time I took a photo of the Northern TVM PtPN vending process, it showed a message stating that "this facility will be available from the payment screen when the ticket office is closed" (sorry, no photo link as it shows my reflection in the TVM's screen).

Unless this has recently changed, I would suggest this is additional "ammunition" for your argument, as you could quite reasonably have concluded that, even if there was a ticket office, it was closed if you were able to be issued with a PtPN.

If the official line is that this is in fact not allowable
There is no such official line. The original intention of Northern's unique PtPN scheme was for them to be interfaced with booking office opening hours but this approach was quickly dropped given the ensuing problems.
 

P Binnersley

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2018
Messages
427
I'd also like a definitive answer as to whether or not a Promise to Pay Permit counts as written permission to travel without a ticket, regardless of whether there is a ticket office open at the station. T
According to the Northern Website

"What is a Promise to Pay notice?

A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office."


So a "promise to pay" is a "ticket" for the purpose of travelling.


According to the Bank of England
"Legal tender has a narrow technical meaning which has no use in everyday life. It means that if you offer to fully pay off a debt to someone in legal tender, they can’t sue you for failing to repay."

So by refusing your cash payment it could be argued that Northern decided to forego your fare at that point. In which case they had no right to ask for any information whatsoever.
 

pottyy

Member
Joined
20 Feb 2013
Messages
8
My understanding is you can only get a promise to pay if the ticket office is closed as your supposed to "buy before you ride" where facilities are available,if the ticket office is shut then you can use a promise to pay but must pay by cash as you can use card in machines.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,295
According to the Northern Website

"What is a Promise to Pay notice?

A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office."


So a "promise to pay" is a "ticket" for the purpose of travelling.


According to the Bank of England
"Legal tender has a narrow technical meaning which has no use in everyday life. It means that if you offer to fully pay off a debt to someone in legal tender, they can’t sue you for failing to repay."

So by refusing your cash payment it could be argued that Northern decided to forego your fare at that point. In which case they had no right to ask for any information whatsoever.
I tried that argument once over a ticket machine not accepting reasonable notes, and failed as the definition required a debt. No debt existed at the point of purchase, and the operator just refused my business.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
I tried that argument once over a ticket machine not accepting reasonable notes, and failed as the definition required a debt. No debt existed at the point of purchase, and the operator just refused my business.
Indeed, the concept of legal tender has very little application in real life. But the concept of acceptable forms of payment, which is what legal tender derives from, has relevance. National Rail Enquiries sets out that cash is an acceptable method of payment on the railway and accordingly you are entitled to rely on that if you board without a ticket, at a station that doesn't have any ticketing facilities capable of taking your cash.

Of course at certain stations (e.g. many London Underground stations at present) that is a nugatory point since you won't be able to get to the platform without a ticket, which you won't be able to get with cash.
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,085
I tried that argument once over a ticket machine not accepting reasonable notes, and failed as the definition required a debt. No debt existed at the point of purchase, and the operator just refused my business.
But if you got on a train without a ticket, you do incur a debt.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,295
But if you got on a train without a ticket, you do incur a debt.
Indeed, but that debt would not have been the fare (a couple of quid, as I recall) that I was unable pay because the machine wouldn't accept my note and I couldn't get change.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Indeed, but that debt would not have been the fare (a couple of quid, as I recall) that I was unable pay because the machine wouldn't accept my note and I couldn't get change.

Depends on why your note was not accepted. If it was because the note was faulty, then yes, a PF should be due. But if you had a "workable" note then that would be arguably a TVM fault.

You are not legally entitled to change, by the way.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
When I was issued with the UFN I was specifically told that one of the options to pay was "at the Post Office", presumably that would be the pay by cash/legal tender option. However, the UFN slip says nothing about this option, only: pay online by credit or debit card, likewise over the phone (0844 number), or by cheque/postal order to a Freepost address.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
When I was issued with the UFN I was specifically told that one of the options to pay was "at the Post Office", presumably that would be the pay by cash/legal tender option. However, the UFN slip says nothing about this option, only: pay online by credit or debit card, likewise over the phone (0844 number), or by cheque/postal order to a Freepost address.

Postal order is an option for cash payment - you purchase one for cash at the Post Office and post it off. That's probably why that incredibly archaic method of payment (the PO must these days issue single figures of these per day, surely?) is included. It's an option available to everyone requiring neither bank account nor decent credit record.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
Postal order is an option for cash payment - you purchase one for cash at the Post Office and post it off. That's probably why that incredibly archaic method of payment (the PO must these days issue single figures of these per day, surely?) is included. It's an option available to everyone requiring neither bank account nor decent credit record.

Yes, at a fee. A postal order for £2.40 would cost you £2.90. Cash is an acceptable method of payment on the railway. There should be no surcharge.

The method involving postal orders is hardly the promised "you can pay this at the Post Office". I was expecting something like paying a utility bill using a PayPoint outlet. More half-truths and weasel words from Carlisle Security.
 

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
2,081
There should surely be the option to pay this at any Northern ticket office if paying cash? They could take the money, stamp the receipt and record it as paid.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top