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Driving mountain passes. Over or under?

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Bletchleyite

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Don’t the Advanced Driver lot say you shouldn’t use engine braking - brakes are for braking?

I've no idea, but if you don't use engine braking on a long downhill of the kind we are talking about you will get brake fade. Even the signs tell you to do it ("Low gear for N miles").

I suspect the thing it tells you not to do is the old fashioned going down through the gears to slow down, which is a good way to wear out your clutch (expensive) and gearbox synchromesh (really expensive) as distinct from your brakes (about the cheapest thing to replace on a car).
 
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Alfonso

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I should like to cycle up, right to the top, many Alpine passes have quite gentle gradients, but going down is hazardous, I should get the train or bus down
I cycled down the Bernina Pass, and nearly came a cropper. Doesn't help that Swiss bikes have their brakes the other way round to what were used to.
 

Meerkat

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I've no idea, but if you don't use engine braking on a long downhill of the kind we are talking about you will get brake fade. Even the signs tell you to do it ("Low gear for N miles").

I suspect the thing it tells you not to do is the old fashioned going down through the gears to slow down, which is a good way to wear out your clutch (expensive) and gearbox synchromesh (really expensive) as distinct from your brakes (about the cheapest thing to replace on a car).
Unless your car is old or you keep a new one for a long time it’s actually brakes are expensive and the clutch doesn’t wear out before you sell it :D
 

Bletchleyite

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It always seems under powered to me - mind you the size is very small so perhaps the power to weight ratio is not too bad.

Small cars are easy to manoeuvre on roads like that, and they are quite light. As long as you stay in a low gear (probably 1st for most of the uphill bits) it will not be a problem. If it's the 3 cylinder 1l petrol, that is if I recall quite a torquey engine for its size which is exactly what you need.
 

Bald Rick

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I’ve done a few of the French Alpine and Pyrenean passes à Velo. Magnificent. Have to be careful on the way down, partly for breaks, but partly for potholes and sheep. If you hit one of them doing 70k you’ll know about it.
 

Meerkat

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In the US all automatics but in the UK I would use the gearbox. But our Vauxhall Corsa in the UK probably could not handle Hardknot or Wrynose
Of course it could - look at the underpowered heavy lumps our fathers/grandfathers were driving over it!
i know their rear wheel drive may have helped but they had laughably little power.
 

Killingworth

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Reverse gear may be lower than first, many years ago going backwards was one way to get up the south side of Bwlch-y-Groes
My father spoke of doing that in his early days of motoring in the 1930s. Normal strategy apparently back then. At the time we were in a heavily overloaded early Beetle going up Sutton Bank in the rain. We made it in first, much to all our relief.
 

Meerkat

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Also tales of putting sacks of potatoes etc to get weight over the rear wheels!
 

LSWR Cavalier

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As for using the brakes going down big hills, I think one was strongly advised to avoid this (1980s)
Are modern brakes much different? I think the advice was to use a low gear

Driving downhill might be easy enough in a modern vehicle, but no-one has invented a device to hold a cycle safely in check going down
For fear of exploding tyres caused by hot rims, one expert suggested letting the cycle gather speed, then braking heavily before the bends
Much too exciting for me
 

Domh245

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As for using the brakes going down big hills, I think one was strongly advised to avoid this (1980s)
Are modern brakes much different? I think the advice was to use a low gear

The disk brakes used by almost all cars now are less susceptible to brake fade than drum brakes are (which were the norm in the 80s)
 

Howardh

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Some roads have "escape routes" but I can't recall seeing those on mountain passes; I suppose on really bendy sections all it would do is plough you onto the next bit of road. Also; using a sheep to save your breaks, sounds like a plan!!
 

Bletchleyite

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The disk brakes used by almost all cars now are less susceptible to brake fade than drum brakes are (which were the norm in the 80s)

True, but it can still happen on a long hill. Best way is to use a bit of both - use a low (but not excessively low) gear and brake when the speed starts to run away. Engine braking varies by car anyway, generally diesels are stronger than petrols but even within those it varies.
 

bspahh

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In 1989, I drove to Monza for the Italian Grand Prix, and came back through the Alps. My road atlas had a couple of pages with descriptions of the main passes. I picked out a route which used some of the famous passes from the Monte Carlo rally in the 1960s (Gavia, Stelvio etc), and for hill climbs like Klausen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klausen_Pass which was used in the 1930s by Mercedes Grand Prix cars. They worked out how to make powerful engines a lot sooner than effective tyres, brakes and suspension.

For Gavia Pass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavia_Pass it said "Single track, partially unsurfaced. Steep drops, not always well guarded". I remember one corner which had white fluffy clouds on the outside, with a flimsy looking, 12 inch high steel barrier. On Google Streetview, it now looks to be fully surfaced.

Stelvio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stelvio_Pass is a big climb. The hairpins are pretty consistent, so you can get into a rhythm. It was snowing at the top when I went up it in the middle of September.

I've cycled up Mont Ventoux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Ventoux The summit of that is like a lunar landscape, covered in rock. The climb was hard work, but the descent was more painful. I wasn't brave enough to freewheel down and let air resistance slow me down. I really didn't fancy melting my brake blocks, so I had lots of pulses of heavy braking, followed by time to let things cool down. After 15 miles of that, my arms were full of lactic acid.
 

Meerkat

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Some roads have "escape routes" but I can't recall seeing those on mountain passes; I suppose on really bendy sections all it would do is plough you onto the next bit of road. Also; using a sheep to save your breaks, sounds like a plan!!
If the alternative was a cliff I would just ram the car into the wall/rock face that is usually beside the road on the hairpins.
One snow day I was going down one of the Surrey hills that was in the Olympic cycling.
Stopped at the top, then crept down, but still lost braking - even tried the handbrake as couldn't turn the ABS off as you really need to on snow. Eventually had to gently scrub the car into the verge/bank at the side to control speed. By the time I got to the bottom it was like a rabbits nose on speed!
 

LSWR Cavalier

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I am not so up with modern cars, are disk brakes all round standard now? Are vehicles with drums at the back still made?

What about descending in an electric vehicle, does one just take ones foot off the throttle?
 

Domh245

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I am not so up with modern cars, are disk brakes all round standard now? Are vehicles with drums at the back still made?

Not standard, but some quick googling suggests that it's only the cheap city cars (107/aygo/up! type of thing) that still retain drum brakes on the rear axle. I can't find a single new car that has drums on the front (which do the bulk of the work on a normal car)

What about descending in an electric vehicle, does one just take ones foot off the throttle?

Depends on the individual vehicle, but in most cases you would just take your foot off the accelerator pedal and some degree of regenerative braking would happen. With some cars the degree of braking can be controlled - my parent's outlander PHEV lets you select a 'B0' mode which is equivalent to coasting with the clutch in for minimal resistance
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Thing is about Wrynose (that's the one furthest west?) is that you drive over the top and suddenly the Isle of Man is staring at you!! Amazing drive down that western side.

Wrynose is the eastern one (fairly straight but with a steep drop off), Hard Knott is the steeper western one with multiple zig-zags.
I've been over a few times and found both quite scary, at least in an automatic which seemed to cope less well than manual.

Not done much driving in the Alps but have done the Loibl Pass from Austria to (then) Yugoslavia, which now has a tunnel under the summit.
By rail there's the Semmering Pass line (base tunnel opens 2026), the original Gotthard (still open for local traffic), and of course the superb Bernina.
The Tende tunnel under the Alpes Maritimes is part of a fascinating route between France and Italy (Nice-Cuneo).

Overseas, two superb mountain road routes are Milford Road in NZ South Island (Te Anau-Milford Sound) which has a summit tunnel (Homer) under the Darren range.
Mind-blowing scenery with unfeasibly steep mountains, deep lakes and fiords (Fiordland National Park).
The other one would be the Going to the Sun Road in Glacier National Park, Montana, over the continental divide.
More unbelievable glacier-carved scenery with many lakes.
The road was built to a Swiss design, and the park itself was originally developed by the Great Northern Railway for added rail interest.
Amtrak's Empire Builder still calls at East and West Glacier stations today, between Chicago and Seattle, and the GN's spectacular timber lodges are still operational.
Both areas have wonderful hiking trails.
 

Bletchleyite

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Wrynose is the eastern one (fairly straight but with a steep drop off), Hard Knott is the steeper western one with multiple zig-zags.
I've been over a few times and found both quite scary, at least in an automatic which seemed to cope less well than manual.

Seems surprising - does it try to change up too soon perhaps? If so perhaps if it has a feature to lock a lower gear use that?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Of course it could - look at the underpowered heavy lumps our fathers/grandfathers were driving over it!
i know their rear wheel drive may have helped but they had laughably little power.
I guess you are correct. I vividly remember going over with my mother, father, brothers and sisters in a Morris Minor in 1967.

And before you ask - NO- none of us had seat belts on!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Seems surprising - does it try to change up too soon perhaps? If so perhaps if it has a feature to lock a lower gear use that?

It was ages ago, and probably down to my driving style.
I remember conking out on Hard Knott before the top (eastbound) and having to wait for for my Ford Sierra Auto to cool down.
I also had to turn round half way down the Wrynose for some reason and finding that quite scary doing an n-point turn with the long drop-off.
Today it must be harder with modern traffic levels, leaving less scope for a clear run.
It was more fun hiking up Harter Fell nearby - you can enjoy the view then.
 

Bletchleyite

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That was the point I was trying to make about our Vauxhall Corsa. I am sure in view of comments it would make it - but would I have to wait in the middle for it to cool off?

Modern cars are properly cooled, so no, I don't see why you would unless there was a fault with the cooling system.

Older cars had an issue whereby if you were doing intensive, low revs work they could overheat due to the lack of air cooling. Electric fans solved that.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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No problem with an old Volkswagen Beetle
Mine broke down once. Found a whole spare engine in the boot ;)
 
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Meerkat

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Going up Stelvio I took a longer photo break because my clutch was getting a bit smelly.
On damp days the from disks would be sizzling nicely when I got to the bottom.
 

Howardh

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I guess you are correct. I vividly remember going over with my mother, father, brothers and sisters in a Morris Minor in 1967.

And before you ask - NO- none of us had seat belts on!
Yes, it was easier for them to get out and push!
 
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