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How long might it take to reopen the line near Stonehaven?

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LeylandLen

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The BBC News report I saw showed rear power car ( which was leading when leaving Aberdeen) no 43030 being slowly lifted and being taken to Glasgow.
 
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Domh245

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Has it been confirmed that the RAIB will be keeping the stock for inspection/analysis, so far it's only a post here without a verified source? It strikes me that with the incident being as a result of infrastructure, there would be comparitavely limited interest in the rolling stock for which the analysis could well have been performed during the extended 'hold' on the site
 

Swanny200

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Has it been confirmed that the RAIB will be keeping the stock for inspection/analysis, so far it's only a post here without a verified source? It strikes me that with the incident being as a result of infrastructure, there would be comparitavely limited interest in the rolling stock for which the analysis could well have been performed during the extended 'hold' on the site

The leading powercar although badly damaged, might have been in too precarious a place for inspection to be done properly, it's the same with a plane crash, we might know exactly what caused it but until every setting, test and inspection has been done the inspectors cannot say their investigation is entirely complete, I would have thought just shy of a month would have been enough time, but I am not an inspector and I don't know all the list of parameters etc.. that is required.
 

221129

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Has it been confirmed that the RAIB will be keeping the stock for inspection/analysis, so far it's only a post here without a verified source? It strikes me that with the incident being as a result of infrastructure, there would be comparitavely limited interest in the rolling stock for which the analysis could well have been performed during the extended 'hold' on the site
Also bare in mind that there are 3 separate investigations going on into what has happened.
 

Domh245

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Also bare in mind that there are 3 separate investigations going on into what has happened.

I knew of 2 investigations (RAIB & BTP/Police Scotland/ORR) but what's the third? Point taken though - multiple concurrent investigations will slow the progress of each.

Can anyone recall with Greyrigg if there were multiple investigations, and also if the cause was as immediately apparent as with here?
 

Swanny200

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I knew of 2 investigations (RAIB & BTP/Police Scotland/ORR) but what's the third? Point taken though - multiple concurrent investigations will slow the progress of each.

Can anyone recall with Greyrigg if there were multiple investigations, and also if the cause was as immediately apparent as with here?

I would only have thought RAIB and BTP, maybe ORR would have been involved with Greyrigg, I am not 100% sure but BTP and Police Scotland may be taken as 2 separate entities in this case.
 

221129

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I knew of 2 investigations (RAIB & BTP/Police Scotland/ORR) but what's the third? Point taken though - multiple concurrent investigations will slow the progress of each.

Can anyone recall with Greyrigg if there were multiple investigations, and also if the cause was as immediately apparent as with here?
ORR/BTP and The Police Scotland ones I believe are separate.
 

XAM2175

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I was wondering if they would have looked any different? I am not sure how fire suppression systems work apart from seeing them in the odd movie where the suppression agent leaves residue, also if they are pressurised which some suppression systems I would assume would be then them being intact shows that how strong they are.

This system uses a mix of nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide gases (trade-named Inergen) released from pressurised bottles to reduce the amount of oxygen available to the fire, so there'll not be any residue.
 

hwl

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This system uses a mix of nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide gases (trade-named Inergen) released from pressurised bottles to reduce the amount of oxygen available to the fire, so there'll not be any residue.
The cylinders are visible and exposed in the remains of the lead power car.
 

43096

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Diesel locos and DMUs have been fitted with fire extinguishing systems ever since their introduction on BR. But the sensing elements that trigger the discharge of the extinguishing agent are inside the engine compartment on locos (including HST power cars) and would not react to an external fire.
HSTs have had automatic fire systems since new; indeed it was a necessity as power cars run unmanned at the rear of the train. The original system used an ozone depleting gas so was replaced by the current Inergen system around 2003. At the same time the system was extended to include the clean air compartment, previously only the engine room was covered.
 

Jordan1296

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ScotRail are re-introducing trains to/from Montrose from Monday 14th September. Essentially, they’ll depart Montrose for Edinburgh at the times shown on ScotRail’s website, should they have been running to/from Aberdeen.

Glasgow QS services will continue to terminate/start back from Dundee.
 

plugwash

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This system uses a mix of nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide gases (trade-named Inergen)
Doing some reading it looks like the idea is that by including a small amount of CO2 in the mix they can stimulate breathing and hence make the hypoxic environment more survivable but not so much CO2 that the CO2 itself becomes a hazard.

I can't seem to find any information on why argon is included in the mix, but I would guess it is to increase the overall density and hence make it easier to achieve mixing with the air.
 

hwl

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Doing some reading it looks like the idea is that by including a small amount of CO2 in the mix they can stimulate breathing and hence make the hypoxic environment more survivable but not so much CO2 that the CO2 itself becomes a hazard.

I can't seem to find any information on why argon is included in the mix, but I would guess it is to increase the overall density and hence make it easier to achieve mixing with the air.
Argon - cheapest dense inert gas
The CO2 and Argon are better thermal insulators than Nitrogen (and most other gasses). The CO2 will also reduce the flame temperature and combustion rate. Argon is very useful at stopping electrical and organic material fires.
 

phil1960

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ScotRail are re-introducing trains to/from Montrose from Monday 14th September. Essentially, they’ll depart Montrose for Edinburgh at the times shown on ScotRail’s website, should they have been running to/from Aberdeen.

Glasgow QS services will continue to terminate/start back from Dundee.

Any idea why it's taken a month to get trains running between Dundee and Montrose again? The stock is there, the crews are there and taxis can be used to "bridge the gap"?

Phil
 

marks87

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Any idea why it's taken a month to get trains running between Dundee and Montrose again? The stock is there, the crews are there and taxis can be used to "bridge the gap"?

Phil

Note that this is only for the benefit of Montrose passengers. Dundee will still be the interchange point for buses to Aberdeen.
 

najaB

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Any idea why it's taken a month to get trains running between Dundee and Montrose again? The stock is there, the crews are there and taxis can be used to "bridge the gap"?
At a guess, Dundee's just a more convenient place to turn trains - four platforms and quite a few sidings rather than two platforms and one loop.

Edit: Just noticed that LNER are now running bus replacement services too, pretty sure that previously they were all provided by Scotrail. Unless I've missed something, the buses are running quite a bit later than the trains they're replacing at x:55 rather than x:05, at least southbound.
 
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Steddenm

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At a guess, Dundee's just a more convenient place to turn trains - four platforms and quite a few sidings rather than two platforms and one loop.

Edit: Just noticed that LNER are now running bus replacement services too, pretty sure that previously they were all provided by Scotrail. Unless I've missed something, the buses are running quite a bit later than the trains they're replacing at x:55 rather than x:05, at least southbound.

LNER have been running buses for a while between Aberdeen and Dundee.

I used one from Stonehaven a few weeks ago.

Apparently ScotRail buses call at all stops (Laurencekirk etc) where as the LNER ones only called at Stonehaven, Montrose, Arbroath and Dundee. Some were even fast direct non-stop.

I don't think they were entered into the timetable feeds.
 

najaB

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LNER have been running buses for a while between Aberdeen and Dundee.

I used one from Stonehaven a few weeks ago.
Okay, thanks. I hadn't seen them loaded in RTT and all the buses I saw at Dundee were on behalf of Scotrail.
 

13h202

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LNER run three buses in place of their Aberdeen services. They have been running since the derailment happened but have only recently been advertised (to avoid overcrowding, customers were previously only told by announcement on the connecting service from KGX and if they asked station staff)

Northbound:
EDB-ABD direct
EDB-DEE-ABD
EDB-DEE-ARB-MTS-STN-ABD
Customers for Fife stations and Haymarket should use ScotRail services.

Southbound is the same but in reverse, with a change at DEE for Fife stations.
 

najaB

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LNER run three buses in place of their Aberdeen services. They have been running since the derailment happened but have only recently been advertised (to avoid overcrowding, customers were previously only told by announcement on the connecting service from KGX and if they asked station staff)...
Thanks for the info.
 

Crossover

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also if they are pressurised which some suppression systems I would assume would be then them being intact shows that how strong they are.
I can't speak for railway fire suprression systems, but I know building ones have (highly) pressurised tanks - they'll need the pressure to expel the extinguishant. From stories I have heard, some of the larger systems used in buildings can be lethal, insomuch as if the valve gets disturbed (through being dropped) the whole bottle becomes a missile. Obviously the ones on trains are going to be a smaller scale, but I would imagine will have some pressure to them.
HSTs have had automatic fire systems since new; indeed it was a necessity as power cars run unmanned at the rear of the train. The original system used an ozone depleting gas so was replaced by the current Inergen system around 2003. At the same time the system was extended to include the clean air compartment, previously only the engine room was covered.
Am I correct in thinking that on some TOC's, there isa prohibition on anyone travelling in the rear powercar/cab because of the suppression system?
 

43096

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Am I correct in thinking that on some TOC's, there isa prohibition on anyone travelling in the rear powercar/cab because of the suppression system?
I believe that is correct. Because the system is auto activated (though train speed has to be below ~5mph) anyone in the cab/engine room/clean air compartment needs to be trained on what to do if the system activated. So technical riders are normally permitted as they are trained.
 

Taunton

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I would only have thought RAIB and BTP, maybe ORR would have been involved with Greyrigg, I am not 100% sure but BTP and Police Scotland may be taken as 2 separate entities in this case.
Looks like an agency turf war again, especially if BTP and Police Scotland are doing separate investigations into the same thing, let alone the others.

One wonders why the back power car, which didn't even derail apparently, is so carefully extracted and taken to Glasgow.
 

DB

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Looks like an agency turf war again, especially if BTP and Police Scotland are doing separate investigations into the same thing, let alone the others.

One wonders why the back power car, which didn't even derail apparently, is so carefully extracted and taken to Glasgow.

It did derail, and the procedure will be to take the whole train.

Has it definitely gone to Glasgow?
 
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