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Eurostar: Juxtaposed Controls, Customs, Regulation from 01/01/2021

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Starmill

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Maybe this will encourage airlines to improve or reintroduce flights between London and Paris/Brussels. No need for juxtaposition of border controls and airports already have customs facilities.
I think this would have been a strong possibility were it not for Covid-19.
 
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RT4038

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Maybe this will encourage airlines to improve or reintroduce flights between London and Paris/Brussels. No need for juxtaposition of border controls and airports already have customs facilities.

I doubt it will make any noticeable difference at all.
 

radamfi

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I'd fly myself anyway; Eurostar is a third rate, expensive ground level airline.

That would be my preference but Eurostar has severely impeded air competition on those routes. If you don't take Eurostar between London and Brussels, you are basically left with premium airlines, coach, car, or some indirect route, for example via Schiphol.
 

Starmill

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That would be my preference but Eurostar has severely impeded air competition on those routes. If you don't take Eurostar between London and Brussels, you are basically left with premium airlines, coach, car, or some indirect route, for example via Schiphol.
Surely a premium airline or a bus is what you're after if you don't like Eurostar? Depending on whether you dislike Eurostar because of its poor approach to customer care or because of its high prices.
 

radamfi

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Surely a premium airline or a bus is what you're after if you don't like Eurostar? Depending on whether you dislike Eurostar because of its poor approach to customer care or because of its high prices.

There is a comprehensive choice of flights between London and Amsterdam, with many London airports to choose from, so you don't have to travel into central London. We could have had something like that for Paris especially if it wasn't for Eurostar.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Re "Unfortunately, we voted for it." Well, strictly speaking "we" (collectively) didn't. Leaving the EU structure (which is what the vote was about) didn't inevitably mean the introduction of additional passport and visa controls. Agreements can exist (and do in places*) for adjoining countries to allow travel between them without routine use of such formalities, and without being part of an overarching political structure. In a different political situation (different with regard to the current politics of the UK and the current politics of the EU) the UK could have ceased to be part of the EU without all the effects which now seem likely - and certainly without the need for any checks beyond those which already happened between the UK and France/Belgium. (*Including in places in Europe, between EU members and non-EU members.) There are many political decisions being made on both sides which aren't necessitated by the UK withdrawal from the EU.

Well, we put the Tories in in 2015, 2017 and 2019 and have to accept their policies.
My description of EU travel after Brexit doesn't apply to Ireland of course, to which travel is unaffected because of the "British Isles" CTA (Common Travel Area).
It's possible some of the current arrangements with France and Belgium may survive because of the Channel Tunnel treaty and other bilateral agreements.
But the FCO seems determined to make Europe just another foreign destination, so that immigration law is consistent.
They were badly hurt by free movement from places like Romania and Bulgaria, while restricting it from places like Australia and Canada.
 

Bletchleyite

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Surely a premium airline or a bus is what you're after if you don't like Eurostar? Depending on whether you dislike Eurostar because of its poor approach to customer care or because of its high prices.

Both. easyJet is cheaper and has an overall better attitude. (No good for Bruxelles, I give you, but plenty to Paris).

Unfortunately, the arrogant "cheminot" attitude pervades anything that SNCF has been anywhere near.
 

AlbertBeale

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While this is true one, can make the argument that a vote for the Conservative party in 2019 was a vote for a particular form of Brexit which would sever almost all such ties, and without doubt to remove all of our benefits from the point of view of border checks. Obviously the majority of voters did not choose to support the Conservative party but that's another matter, and many did. To put it another way, there are inevitable consequences from an exit from the Single Market and Customs Union, and the Conservative party promised to deliver that.

Yes - I accept there was a likely political route that would be taken. I was trying to make the point that the changes are the result of political decisions (both by the UK government and the EU chiefs), and were not in principle an inevitable result of whether or not the UK was an EU member or not. Other connections between EU members and non-EU members manage to work rather more co-operatively...
 

GingerSte

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I trained as an architect, and I remember a representative of the St Pancras International project team giving us a presentation about the redevelopment of the station. Even then it seemed blindingly obvious to me that the Eurostar departure area was not only too small to accommodate any significant growth (or, as we now expect, longer wait times) - but that the physical arrangement of the station made it almost impossible to cheaply expand it.

We can expect longer wait times at customs and immigration, that much is clear. Therefore the queuing space between security and the controls has to accommodate more people.

Referring to the drawing below ("north" is to the right)... as of now it's tight in the departure lounge - you pass the departure controls and are almost immediately level with the east-west "aisle" through the departure lounge from which the 3 north-facing and 3 south-facing ramps climb up to the platforms.

You can probably make more space in the departure lounge by either losing the business premier lounge or some of the shops facing the public arcade (numbers 17a/b/c/d, 32, 33, 34, 35 etc). But I can't see a simple solution to extending the queueing space for departures.

(Arrivals might be easier... that's a very large hall at the base of the ramps which could easily be tensa-barriered up for arrival checks).

e05b721320397cf1c0dbbc203a260768.png

I took that drawing and did a little analysis on it. The escalators take up a fair amount of the departures area. Presumably you wouldn't be increasing those. If you account for these, then adding the area of shops 33 to 38 (all of those to the west of the departure lounge) gave a 20% increase in available seating area. You could make that 25% by going to that first line of columns to the west, currently in the arcade. You could also make that 30% if you took some of the market to the north of Departures.

I think that the Business Premier lounge has been moved up out of the undercroft level. I understand that you take a lift from there up a number of floors (not sure how many).

My solution would be slightly different. I would make the arrivals area into a departures one. I would then have arrivals on a mezzanine level above the platform. Access would be through travelators directly above one set of the existing ones from Departures, which would feed onto a footbridge (by the far end of the Barlow train shed) and then Passport/Customs+Arrivals (maybe in the champagne bar area). All of that would give a massive (roughly 70%) increase in the original area. This is excluding the retails areas to the north and west of Arrivals. If you added all of them (and the retail next to Departures), you could more than double the area for Departures.
 

Meerkat

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I took that drawing and did a little analysis on it. The escalators take up a fair amount of the departures area. Presumably you wouldn't be increasing those. If you account for these, then adding the area of shops 33 to 38 (all of those to the west of the departure lounge) gave a 20% increase in available seating area. You could make that 25% by going to that first line of columns to the west, currently in the arcade. You could also make that 30% if you took some of the market to the north of Departures.

I think that the Business Premier lounge has been moved up out of the undercroft level. I understand that you take a lift from there up a number of floors (not sure how many).

My solution would be slightly different. I would make the arrivals area into a departures one. I would then have arrivals on a mezzanine level above the platform. Access would be through travelators directly above one set of the existing ones from Departures, which would feed onto a footbridge (by the far end of the Barlow train shed) and then Passport/Customs+Arrivals (maybe in the champagne bar area). All of that would give a massive (roughly 70%) increase in the original area. This is excluding the retails areas to the north and west of Arrivals. If you added all of them (and the retail next to Departures), you could more than double the area for Departures.
A proposal for a mezzanine level above the platforms won’t even land on the listed building folk’s desk before they have rejected it!
 

BahrainLad

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Wasn't the original idea to have a mezzanine above the platforms, being served by a new International building to one side of the trainshed?

Anyway, the Business Premier lounge is indeed two levels, one at undercroft level, one at platform level. It's actually not that big and remember E* have recently made changes to Club Eurostar in order to try and reduce the number of Carte Blanche holders who have access.
 

Chester1

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We currently have free movement with the EU, and passport checks are only for identity (no visa), and UK holders can stay as long as they like, and work.
From 1 January, it will be like any other non-EU border, where visas will be checked for length of stay.
The plan is for 90-day visa-free travel between UK and EU states (but no work allowed), so entry and exit will have to be checked/stamped, as it is now in places like South Africa which have a 90-day visa-free visitor rule.
At the very least, it will take more time at airport desks/passport control - enjoy the non-EU queues at Schiphol, CDG etc.
It might even mean you have to have a return ticket and demonstrate funds for your stay, and all those irritating "foreigner" checks.
Unfortunately, we voted for it.

And in 2022, as non-EU members, we will have to conform to the EU electronic pre-travel authorisation scheme, as you have to do today for US/Canada/Australia.
So no last minute dash to St Pancras on a whim to catch the last Eurostar of the day.

With the US system once signed up it lasts 5 years. For people who might "dash to St Pancras on a whim" (who must be rich given the airline style pricing of E* - rocking up is going to probably cost you around £300 return at minimum) it would be worthwhile just maintaining it continuously, about 20 quid every 5 years to do it would not be prohibitive to such people.

The ETIAs will be €7 for 3 years pre authorisation. Its not a visa as some people have described it. Its essentially just a check that people aren't on watchlists for serious crime or terrorism. US ESTAs can be processed within 20 minutes although it can take upto 3 days.

Using non EU passport queues is unlikely to be a major issue. Nationality of travellers on specific services don't vary hugely so demand can be predicted and officers can switch queues from EU only to all passports at a moments notice. Any airport serving tourists areas that gets a reputation for long queues for Brits will get huge political pressure to sort themselves out before the local tourist sector takes a hit. The UK has added low risk citizens of non EU countries (e.g. Americans, South Koreans etc) to the same queue as Brits and EU citizens so border queues will not change for EU Citizens coming here.
 

EAD

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As someone who quite regularly uses Eurostar and then onward connections to Germany to see family, I was just mulling the realities here at Midi/Zuid in Brussels next yeer. The well known 20 mins connection is a quick hustle currently (more so of course if the connections escalator/passage are closed). The original tripartite understanding for Eurostar from 15 December 1993 (and the various additions/amendments) [NB The Le Touquet Agreement is re Channel port traffic]) only covers immigration checks (entry/exit) and while all in the EU (but not Schengen for the UK) there has been no need for customs checks given it is travel within the internal market and customs/VAT unions. Of course it is within each country's rights to conduct spot checks on arrival as you see occasionally at Midi and St Pancras.

So, given you will now be crossing a customs border there will be a need to increase checks. At Midi I can see that resulting in the connection route being shut and passengers funnelled to the head of the train - this is a very tight space as it is which often causes delays. From a quick scan of local press/TV reports, it appears Belgian customs have been trained up and allocated space to do such checks with 28 new staff - I assume they would pull arrivals from the queue there and take them to an inspection area nearby (I have not been through since February, but there has been quite a bit of work in the station). I therefore think that the 20 minute connection will become a thing of the past unfortunately and instead a nice wait at Midi will result. It was perfectly doable (though if e.g. last train of the day it would be prudent to build in some extra time).

Recent Article following a customs officer already practising at Midi [main article behind a paywall]: La Libre also an older one here from RTBF. Both in French - just a note that while no-deal is mentioned in the 2019 article, since the UK position is to leave the customs and VAT union (and indeed the internal market) then even with a deal on an FTA basis checks will be needed.
 

riceuten

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But that is the responsibility of Serbia, so that doesn't mean the EU would not check. I don't expect regular strict checks, but it is possible and there should be some way of doing it. At the moment, I cannot see how they could do checks at arrival in for example Rotterdam

I've flown to Serbia from the UK, and yes, there are customs checks
 

riceuten

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They just rifled through my bags for electronics and currency - you had to declare how much at the time, and you couldn't take out more than you took in.
 

alex397

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I've flown to Serbia from the UK, and yes, there are customs checks

That wasn’t my experience flying from Belgrade to Luton last year. For me, it was just like flying from an EU country. I’m guessing there could still be some random custom checks from countries like that.

Going back to the 20 min connection at Midi, this arrival was also the one which stopped at Ashford International, which who knows if it will reopen. On top of it possibly becoming impossible to do the 20 min connection, the quick journey times from Kent to Germany will then be gone. I’m glad I made the most of Eurostar before the joys of Brexit.

Getting to Germany will now involve travelling up to London, then waiting for a long time at Brussels, making flying more attractive for many. But anyway, “taking back control” and so on....
 
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route101

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They just rifled through my bags for electronics and currency - you had to declare how much at the time, and you couldn't take out more than you took in.

Interesting, I know Serbia is one of the few countries in Europe that will stamp your passport. In the Balkans all I've seen of customs is a customs officer that walks through the train. Some places they don't even look at your passport like Greece.
 

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I think we can conclude Serbia does not always do customs checks but does sometimes. To get back on topic, the EU countries will need to do proper customs checks at least sometimes, for which there are no facilities available at the moment. So presumably they would need to accept that there are nearly never checks and sometimes cordon off a platform at arrival. I am curious how this aspect will be handled next year.
 

Bletchleyite

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There seem to be 2 approaches - either "check everyone" as the USA and Canada do (as a minimum you have to make an explicit declaration, or random, targetted checks like the UK does (i.e. not overly bothering yourself if someone is carrying one packet of fags too many, but rather concentrating on those with large amounts of contraband). I guess the latter is what would likely be in use.
 

XAM2175

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I know Serbia is one of the few countries in Europe that will stamp your passport.

I have a not-insignificant number of stamps applied by immigration officers in France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Sweden, all in the last five years.

It's an Australian passport, mind, but anybody travelling to the EU and/or Schengen area on a British passport after the end of this year will probably find themselves with the beginnings of a collection too.
 

ainsworth74

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It's an Australian passport, mind, but anybody travelling to the EU and/or Schengen area on a British passport after the end of this year will probably find themselves with the beginnings of a collection too.

Always wanted to start accumulating stamps in my passport. But not like this :'(
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Well, you're only going to get a stamp at the first Schengen arrival point - so usually Lille/Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam for Eurostar.
After that you are in the Schengen area so it will be the same as now until you leave to come home.
Might be different if you cross into the few EU/EFTA countries not currently in Schengen (hr, ro, bg, cy).
 

alex397

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I think this may be the one and only ‘benefit’ of Brexit - getting a collection of stamps in a passport! Although in this ever digital world, it seems quite a backwards step to be doing that (but of course backward steps are a UK trend at the moment).
 

DanielB

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Well, you're only going to get a stamp at the first Schengen arrival point - so usually Lille/Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam for Eurostar.
I doubt you'll get a stamp at Amsterdam. It would be much more likely to have some kind of passport check on the train post Brexit as both Eurostar stops in The Netherlands are really not equipped for passport/customs checks on arrival.
At Amsterdam Central it would be possible to use the Eurostar terminal at platform 15 for both directions, although that will be a nightmare in terms of capacity as platform 15 is heavily used for both domestic and international high speed trains in the opposite direction.
Currently Eurostar arrives at platform 13 which is the most convenient for trains having to use bridge 3 at the Oosterdoksbrug in order to get to Watergraafsmeer depot.

At Rotterdam Central using the Eurostar terminal isn't even possible as platform 2 cannot be reached by trains arriving from the south. So there you'll be stuck to using a island platform without any facilities for border checks.
 

route101

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Once the new Euro-ESTA thing comes into play, will they bother stamping or will they just use the electronic record from that?

I doubt they will stamp UK passports. I used to ask for them as a wee record to myself .
 

StephenHunter

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Interesting, I know Serbia is one of the few countries in Europe that will stamp your passport. In the Balkans all I've seen of customs is a customs officer that walks through the train. Some places they don't even look at your passport like Greece.

My only stamps in my current passport are from Montenegro on a day trip from Croatia with a car tour. The driver just showed his Croatian ID badge. One of the customs officers was called Sandra.
 

biko

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I presume the stamping (if it will happen) will be done at departure in London, as that is where border checks are and will be done.

Customs is totally separate and not juxtaposed so needs to be done on arrival. That’s, I think, the most interesting aspect as currently there are no customs checks at all.
 
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