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Penalty fare or fare evasion?

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ale

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2020
Messages
11
Location
London
Hello, I am new in the forum. I would like to ask for your guidance on a possible penalty fare or fare evasion that happened to me two weeks ago. Sorry for my English, it is not my first language. Returning from abroad, arrived at Luton airport, border official told me that I had to do quarantine because I was returning from a country that was not exempt. From the airport I took the bus to Luton city, train station. At Luton train station, I bought a general ticket 14.10 which is a bit more expensive than the off-peak 13.90, I don't know when is the peak or off-peak time and last year I got a penalty fare and I didn't want to buy the wrong ticket, I prefer spend a bit of more money than have another problem regarding fares. I selected the ticket to Cricklewood because it is closer to my house, cheaper and I only have to take a bus or simply walk to my house. I could not see the Cricklewood stop on the screens and I asked a guard in the station how should I go to Cricklewood. She told me that there was no direct train to Cricklewood that I had to change in St Alban city. I caught the first train stopping in St Albans city. However, I missed the St Alban stop which connected me with Cricklewood, I got off at the next stop which is St Pancras International, which is further from my house, so my option was to take the underground which is more expensive. I had student oyster card plus another extra oyster both with credit in case something happens. In St Pancras, I put the ticket in the reading machine and the doors did not open. I approached to one of the guards and asked him why the doors did not open. The guard took the tickets and told me that the ticket I had was for Cricklewood not St Pancras. The guard began to question me about whether I wanted to go out at the wrong station, he asked me for a document with my name and address. I showed him my oyster and he checked the credit on it. He told me that I did not look like the one in the photo to which I replied that how could he know that if I was wearing a mask. I told him that I was starting my quarantine and I showed him the immigration quarantine document with my personal details, and he wrote in his notebook. I explained him that my destination was Cricklewood, but I don't remember say that I missed the stop. I asked him what was wrong, what was the problem and he told me that nothing was wrong . The guard insisted on whether I wanted to go out at the station, I must admit that I did not understand much what he was saying either, I was worried because I was not feeling well and I was in quarantine, at the airport I was told to go directly to my house and avoid contact, In fact, I had the covi-19 test few days later. The guard gave me back my oyster but he did not give me any copy or the tickets that I had bought, I only have the bank statement that says the value and that it was in Luton train station and the ticket from the airport to Luton city. The guard only told me that the company would contact me. I had in my head the idea that the ticket was from Luton to London as something general not that I cannot exit in St Pancras. I searched tickets price and there is indeed a price difference between Cricklewood and St Pancras station. In any moment I have the intention of avoiding paying the corresponding price, because I had the money to do so. However, obviously my ticket was not a valid ticket or that is what I understand, I do not understand very well how the train lines works and I do not use them frequently, I always use my travel card zona 1-3 and pay as you go. My question is, what should I expect now, what should I do? Should I look for a solicitor advice? Should I contact them if I do not receive any letter? I have read in this forum and the mere fact of having a criminal record risky my studies. This year is my last year in University and I do not know how this might affect whether I decide to do a master's degree or just find a job. I have been waiting many years for the opportunity to go to the university and now this, because I did not pay enough attention.
 
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WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
Hello, I am new in the forum. I would like to ask for your guidance on a possible penalty fare or fare evasion that happened to me two weeks ago. Sorry for my English, it is not my first language. Returning from abroad, arrived at Luton airport, border official told me that I had to do quarantine because I was returning from a country that was not exempt. From the airport I took the bus to Luton city, train station. At Luton train station, I bought a general ticket 14.10 which is a bit more expensive than the off-peak 13.90, I don't know when is the peak or off-peak time and last year I got a penalty fare and I didn't want to buy the wrong ticket, I prefer spend a bit of more money than have another problem regarding fares. I selected the ticket to Cricklewood because it is closer to my house, cheaper and I only have to take a bus or simply walk to my house. I could not see the Cricklewood stop on the screens and I asked a guard in the station how should I go to Cricklewood. She told me that there was no direct train to Cricklewood that I had to change in St Alban city. I caught the first train stopping in St Albans city. However, I missed the St Alban stop which connected me with Cricklewood, I got off at the next stop which is St Pancras International, which is further from my house, so my option was to take the underground which is more expensive. I had student oyster card plus another extra oyster both with credit in case something happens. In St Pancras, I put the ticket in the reading machine and the doors did not open. I approached to one of the guards and asked him why the doors did not open. The guard took the tickets and told me that the ticket I had was for Cricklewood not St Pancras. The guard began to question me about whether I wanted to go out at the wrong station, he asked me for a document with my name and address. I showed him my oyster and he checked the credit on it. He told me that I did not look like the one in the photo to which I replied that how could he know that if I was wearing a mask. I told him that I was starting my quarantine and I showed him the immigration quarantine document with my personal details, and he wrote in his notebook. I explained him that my destination was Cricklewood, but I don't remember say that I missed the stop. I asked him what was wrong, what was the problem and he told me that nothing was wrong . The guard insisted on whether I wanted to go out at the station, I must admit that I did not understand much what he was saying either, I was worried because I was not feeling well and I was in quarantine, at the airport I was told to go directly to my house and avoid contact, In fact, I had the covi-19 test few days later. The guard gave me back my oyster but he did not give me any copy or the tickets that I had bought, I only have the bank statement that says the value and that it was in Luton train station and the ticket from the airport to Luton city. The guard only told me that the company would contact me. I had in my head the idea that the ticket was from Luton to London as something general not that I cannot exit in St Pancras. I searched tickets price and there is indeed a price difference between Cricklewood and St Pancras station. In any moment I have the intention of avoiding paying the corresponding price, because I had the money to do so. However, obviously my ticket was not a valid ticket or that is what I understand, I do not understand very well how the train lines works and I do not use them frequently, I always use my travel card zona 1-3 and pay as you go. My question is, what should I expect now, what should I do? Should I look for a solicitor advice? Should I contact them if I do not receive any letter? I have read in this forum and the mere fact of having a criminal record risky my studies. This year is my last year in University and I do not know how this might affect whether I decide to do a master's degree or just find a job. I have been waiting many years for the opportunity to go to the university and now this, because I did not pay enough attention.
OK

You have almost certainly 'over ridden' by taking the train beyond your ticket destination (Cricklewood) and trying to leave the station at St Pancras (in order to go to the underground).

What you should have done when you missed the change at St Albans was to go to St Pancras on the train, get off, change platforms and go back to Crickelwood on the train (Thameslink Train presumably) and not attempted to leave and use the underground.

It will have looked to the staff at the barrier that you deliberately bought a cheaper ticket to Cricklewood to save some money when your intention was (they think) to go to St Pancras. Not that in reality you would have saved much money so chances are your story makes sense, but you did travel without a ticket for the leg between Crickelwood and St Pancras, technically.

They could potentially seek to charge you the fare evaded plus their costs of investigating this, or in worst case scenario they could prosecute you in court. Personally I think that is not likely, especially if you co-operate with them.

Dids you give the staff your name and addreess contact details? You say the ticket inspector said the train company would contact you so I assume you gave him your contact details?

Is so they may write to you any time up to 6 months ahead. You need to watch out for that letter (in the post) and not ignore it. When you get it you can post here for advice on how to respond.

Do you have any evidence of the cost of the ticket you bought in Luton? (bank record for example, or receipt from ticket machine) if so keep that as proof (screen shot, paper copy or whatever you have), you say you have that so keep it safe - it may be a while before you need it. Keep a copy of your post above as it is a good record from fresh in your mind of what happened.

As you are a student it would be a good idea to contact your student union for advice and help with this.

Basically you need to wait for them to contact you and see what they are asking.

Coming back to this thread for help when you get contacted is a good idea too.

Don't worry too much at this stage.

So re-reading your post it sounds like they did take your name and address - did they ask you to verify it as correct, and did you sign anything?

Was it your up to date address in the UK where you can expect to receive post in next 6 months?
 
Last edited:

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,981
The OP mentions having a Zone 1-3 Travelcard.

Was the OP in possession of this Travelcard at the time of the journey. If so then an offence hasn't taken place, although the OP has complicated matters by using a paper ticket to Cricklewood to exit the at St Pancras rather than the Travelcard.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
Hello, I am new in the forum. I would like to ask for your guidance on a possible penalty fare or fare evasion that happened to me two weeks ago. Sorry for my English, it is not my first language. Returning from abroad, arrived at Luton airport, border official told me that I had to do quarantine because I was returning from a country that was not exempt. From the airport I took the bus to Luton city, train station. At Luton train station, I bought a general ticket 14.10 which is a bit more expensive than the off-peak 13.90, I don't know when is the peak or off-peak time and last year I got a penalty fare and I didn't want to buy the wrong ticket, I prefer spend a bit of more money than have another problem regarding fares. I selected the ticket to Cricklewood because it is closer to my house, cheaper and I only have to take a bus or simply walk to my house. I could not see the Cricklewood stop on the screens and I asked a guard in the station how should I go to Cricklewood. She told me that there was no direct train to Cricklewood that I had to change in St Alban city. I caught the first train stopping in St Albans city. However, I missed the St Alban stop which connected me with Cricklewood, I got off at the next stop which is St Pancras International, which is further from my house, so my option was to take the underground which is more expensive. I had student oyster card plus another extra oyster both with credit in case something happens. In St Pancras, I put the ticket in the reading machine and the doors did not open. I approached to one of the guards and asked him why the doors did not open. The guard took the tickets and told me that the ticket I had was for Cricklewood not St Pancras. The guard began to question me about whether I wanted to go out at the wrong station, he asked me for a document with my name and address. I showed him my oyster and he checked the credit on it. He told me that I did not look like the one in the photo to which I replied that how could he know that if I was wearing a mask. I told him that I was starting my quarantine and I showed him the immigration quarantine document with my personal details, and he wrote in his notebook. I explained him that my destination was Cricklewood, but I don't remember say that I missed the stop. I asked him what was wrong, what was the problem and he told me that nothing was wrong . The guard insisted on whether I wanted to go out at the station, I must admit that I did not understand much what he was saying either, I was worried because I was not feeling well and I was in quarantine, at the airport I was told to go directly to my house and avoid contact, In fact, I had the covi-19 test few days later. The guard gave me back my oyster but he did not give me any copy or the tickets that I had bought, I only have the bank statement that says the value and that it was in Luton train station and the ticket from the airport to Luton city. The guard only told me that the company would contact me. I had in my head the idea that the ticket was from Luton to London as something general not that I cannot exit in St Pancras. I searched tickets price and there is indeed a price difference between Cricklewood and St Pancras station. In any moment I have the intention of avoiding paying the corresponding price, because I had the money to do so. However, obviously my ticket was not a valid ticket or that is what I understand, I do not understand very well how the train lines works and I do not use them frequently, I always use my travel card zona 1-3 and pay as you go. My question is, what should I expect now, what should I do? Should I look for a solicitor advice? Should I contact them if I do not receive any letter? I have read in this forum and the mere fact of having a criminal record risky my studies. This year is my last year in University and I do not know how this might affect whether I decide to do a master's degree or just find a job. I have been waiting many years for the opportunity to go to the university and now this, because I did not pay enough attention.
Also - what was the date (and approx time) of the journey you took from Luton to Cricklewood / St Pancras, so that I can check the fare the barrier staff at St Pancras think you should have paid

£14.10 is an anytime single ticket Luton to Cricklewood
a Luton to St Pancras equivalent ticket would be £18.80

(But depending on time / day of the week you traveled it may be that you were entitled to a lower fare than £18.80).

So it may be that you have mistakenly evaded a sum of £4.70 at maximum. But still potentially an offence they can take action over unless you can persuade them it was an honest mistake.

The OP mentions having a Zone 1-3 Travelcard.

Was the OP in possession of this Travelcard at the time of the journey. If so then an offence hasn't taken place, although the OP has complicated matters by using a paper ticket to Cricklewood to exit the at St Pancras rather than the Travelcard.
Just seen this Hadders, good point.

@ale Perhaps you can confirm if your Zone 1-3 travelcard was valid for use on the date of travel?

If so, I would assume it was valid for the section of the train journey between Cricklewood and St Pancras.

Can others confirm even in situation where on a train that does not stop at Cricklewood, is a Travelcard valid on that train as it is classed a 'season ticket' for the area concerned? Cricklewood is in Zone 3, valid that is in combination with the ticket from Luton to Cricklewood that the OP purchased on the day of travel.

In which case it may simply be a case of replying clearly to the letter you may get sent, to explain all this and proove you had the tickets. In which case be sure to keep a record of all your tickets (inc your Zone 1-3 travelcard, showing they were valid on this date - eg a screenshot or print out of your travelcard validity from TfL website if you have it registered, if not can you register it as quickly as possible). This is because for any time in the next 6 months at least you may need to be able to easily proove you had these valid tickets which you had paid for an were using on this journey.
 
Last edited:

Dibbo4025

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2018
Messages
607
Can others confirm even in situation where on a train that does not stop at Cricklewood, is a Travelcard valid on that train as it is classed a 'season ticket' for the area concerned? Cricklewood is in Zone 3, valid that is in combination with the ticket from Luton to Cricklewood that the OP purchased on the day of travel.
7-day+ travelcards do count as season tickets, but all travelcards are also zonal tickets and so even with a day travelcard the train would not need to stop at the transition between tickets
 

hkstudent

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
1,357
Location
SE London
7-day+ travelcards do count as season tickets, but all travelcards are also zonal tickets and so even with a day travelcard the train would not need to stop at the transition between tickets
Yeah.
But, did OP mentioned about he is in possession of a Zone 1-3 Travelcard in Oystercard when OP attempted to leave St Pancras Station?

And, for a future encounter with any railway staff, if you don't understand what he/she said, you can ask for a repeat of what he/she said in a slower pace, especially if you are under caution. If you don't understand any words, you can also ask the staff to repeat in simpler wordings.

BTW, Luton Airport Parkway now accepts Contactless Pay As You Go. To avoid such a hassle, you may think of using contactless instead in future.
[Peak (Tap in at 0630-0929 OR 1600-1859): £10.90 / Off-Peak: £7.00]
(but of course, you will lose out the 16-25 railcard 1/3 off discount on paper tickets / Oystercard Pay-As-You-Go)
 
Last edited:

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
2,943
The advice above is good, but let me pull out a few points that may be more straightforward to follow.

If the railway person at St Pancras did not take your name and address, you have nothing to worry about - that means that they understood that you'd made a mistake, and nothing more will happen.

If they did take your name and address, then it is important to keep an eye out to see if the railway write to you. If for some reason you stop having access to the address you have given, it makes sense to have your mail redirected so you don't miss any letters. This isn't free, but you can find out how to do it at https://www.royalmail.com/personal/receiving-mail/redirection.

It may be that the railway don't write to you. That (again) will mean that they do understand that you'd made a mistake, and nothing more will happen. But you will only know that they aren't going to write when around seven months have passed (why seven months? Because if the railway do decide to take you to court, they have to take the prosecution to court within six months, and the court then has to advise you - which might take a few weeks. Six months plus a few weeks equals about seven months.).

If the railway do write to you, it's important to keep in touch with them. You've already told us what happened, so try and keep a copy of what you sent to us in your original message: that's what the railway will need to know. And as people have said, keep a note of what tickets you held on the day when this happened.

But just because they have written, that doesn't mean that you will have to go to court. It may be that once you have sent them more information, they will understand what has happened and not want to punish you. Or they may be prepared to 'settle out of court' (which means that you make a payment to them instead of being taken to court). So even if you get a letter, don't panic!

If you'd like us to help you, we can look at what you want to send to the railway, so please come back and let us know if the railway do write to you.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,981
Can others confirm even in situation where on a train that does not stop at Cricklewood, is a Travelcard valid on that train as it is classed a 'season ticket' for the area concerned? Cricklewood is in Zone 3, valid that is in combination with the ticket from Luton to Cricklewood that the OP purchased on the day of travel.

If the OP held a Zones 1-3 Travelcard season and a Luton to Cricklewood paper ticket there is no need for the tran to call at Cricklewood.

7-day+ travelcards do count as season tickets, but all travelcards are also zonal tickets and so even with a day travelcard the train would not need to stop at the transition between tickets

Worth noting that Day Travelcards cannot be held on Oyster (although I don't think this is relevant here). A PAYG Oyster that has reached the daily cap is not the same as a Travelcard.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
If the OP held a Zones 1-3 Travelcard season and a Luton to Cricklewood paper ticket there is no need for the tran to call at Cricklewood.



Worth noting that Day Travelcards cannot be held on Oyster (although I don't think this is relevant here). A PAYG Oyster that has reached the daily cap is not the same as a Travelcard.
Thanks - yes, and if the tickets were all valid as described I think the OP needs to follow Fawkes Cat advice now.

IE keep all the ticket evidence.
Wait to see if they are contacted by the railway.
Come back here for advice if they are contacted.

I can see why, if the tickets were presented in a particular way at the St Pancreas barrier, the staff may have initially felt suspicious. And if the OP was anxious, and English not first language, may have been unable to explain their ticketing in a way that the staff fully understood.

Indeed there is a real prospect that the OP has actually paid too much for the journey they took!
 

ale

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2020
Messages
11
Location
London
OK

You have almost certainly 'over ridden' by taking the train beyond your ticket destination (Cricklewood) and trying to leave the station at St Pancras (in order to go to the underground).

What you should have done when you missed the change at St Albans was to go to St Pancras on the train, get off, change platforms and go back to Crickelwood on the train (Thameslink Train presumably) and not attempted to leave and use the underground.

It will have looked to the staff at the barrier that you deliberately bought a cheaper ticket to Cricklewood to save some money when your intention was (they think) to go to St Pancras. Not that in reality you would have saved much money so chances are your story makes sense, but you did travel without a ticket for the leg between Crickelwood and St Pancras, technically.

They could potentially seek to charge you the fare evaded plus their costs of investigating this, or in worst case scenario they could prosecute you in court. Personally I think that is not likely, especially if you co-operate with them.

Dids you give the staff your name and addreess contact details? You say the ticket inspector said the train company would contact you so I assume you gave him your contact details?

Is so they may write to you any time up to 6 months ahead. You need to watch out for that letter (in the post) and not ignore it. When you get it you can post here for advice on how to respond.

Do you have any evidence of the cost of the ticket you bought in Luton? (bank record for example, or receipt from ticket machine) if so keep that as proof (screen shot, paper copy or whatever you have), you say you have that so keep it safe - it may be a while before you need it. Keep a copy of your post above as it is a good record from fresh in your mind of what happened.

As you are a student it would be a good idea to contact your student union for advice and help with this.

Basically you need to wait for them to contact you and see what they are asking.

Coming back to this thread for help when you get contacted is a good idea too.

Don't worry too much at this stage.

So re-reading your post it sounds like they did take your name and address - did they ask you to verify it as correct, and did you sign anything?

Was it your up to date address in the UK where you can expect to receive post in next 6 months?
OK

You have almost certainly 'over ridden' by taking the train beyond your ticket destination (Cricklewood) and trying to leave the station at St Pancras (in order to go to the underground).

What you should have done when you missed the change at St Albans was to go to St Pancras on the train, get off, change platforms and go back to Crickelwood on the train (Thameslink Train presumably) and not attempted to leave and use the underground.

It will have looked to the staff at the barrier that you deliberately bought a cheaper ticket to Cricklewood to save some money when your intention was (they think) to go to St Pancras. Not that in reality you would have saved much money so chances are your story makes sense, but you did travel without a ticket for the leg between Crickelwood and St Pancras, technically.

They could potentially seek to charge you the fare evaded plus their costs of investigating this, or in worst case scenario they could prosecute you in court. Personally I think that is not likely, especially if you co-operate with them.

Dids you give the staff your name and addreess contact details? You say the ticket inspector said the train company would contact you so I assume you gave him your contact details?

Is so they may write to you any time up to 6 months ahead. You need to watch out for that letter (in the post) and not ignore it. When you get it you can post here for advice on how to respond.

Do you have any evidence of the cost of the ticket you bought in Luton? (bank record for example, or receipt from ticket machine) if so keep that as proof (screen shot, paper copy or whatever you have), you say you have that so keep it safe - it may be a while before you need it. Keep a copy of your post above as it is a good record from fresh in your mind of what happened.

As you are a student it would be a good idea to contact your student union for advice and help with this.

Basically you need to wait for them to contact you and see what they are asking.

Coming back to this thread for help when you get contacted is a good idea too.

Don't worry too much at this stage.

So re-reading your post it sounds like they did take your name and address - did they ask you to verify it as correct, and did you sign anything?

Was it your up to date address in the UK where you can expect to receive post in next 6 months?
Hi, sorry for my late reply and thank youfor your advices

-I gave the guard my address and all the information they requested, including in which area in London my home is, I did not tell him directly, I showed him the visa and immigration document where all my personal details are and the guard copied them from the document. I also signed what the guard wrote, although I did not check if the data was correct.

-I do not have the tickets in my possession because the guard did not return them to me, even the orange receip ticket, he only returned my oyster card. But I have the bank statement where it says the value and that it was in Luton where I bought it.

The OP mentions having a Zone 1-3 Travelcard.

Was the OP in possession of this Travelcard at the time of the journey. If so then an offence hasn't taken place, although the OP has complicated matters by using a paper ticket to Cricklewood to exit the at St Pancras rather than the Travelcard.
Hello, I had my oyster card with money on it but not travelcard zone 1-3 at that time, while I am not going to UNI I only top up my student card because it is cheaper, currently, I only go to work 2 days a week and I am avoiding going out due the pandemic and my health condition. At the time I actually had 2 oyster cards, the one I showed the guard with £ 28 and the other with £ 20. I also used this oyster to take the underground afterwards. I also have my record from that day to corroborate it.

Also - what was the date (and approx time) of the journey you took from Luton to Cricklewood / St Pancras, so that I can check the fare the barrier staff at St Pancras think you should have paid

£14.10 is an anytime single ticket Luton to Cricklewood
a Luton to St Pancras equivalent ticket would be £18.80

(But depending on time / day of the week you traveled it may be that you were entitled to a lower fare than £18.80).

So it may be that you have mistakenly evaded a sum of £4.70 at maximum. But still potentially an offence they can take action over unless you can persuade them it was an honest mistake.


Just seen this Hadders, good point.

@ale Perhaps you can confirm if your Zone 1-3 travelcard was valid for use on the date of travel?

If so, I would assume it was valid for the section of the train journey between Cricklewood and St Pancras.

Can others confirm even in situation where on a train that does not stop at Cricklewood, is a Travelcard valid on that train as it is classed a 'season ticket' for the area concerned? Cricklewood is in Zone 3, valid that is in combination with the ticket from Luton to Cricklewood that the OP purchased on the day of travel.

In which case it may simply be a case of replying clearly to the letter you may get sent, to explain all this and proove you had the tickets. In which case be sure to keep a record of all your tickets (inc your Zone 1-3 travelcard, showing they were valid on this date - eg a screenshot or print out of your travelcard validity from TfL website if you have it registered, if not can you register it as quickly as possible). This is because for any time in the next 6 months at least you may need to be able to easily proove you had these valid tickets which you had paid for an were using on this journey.
The date was 3rd September, at 13:30 was the train, I don't know the destination I only checked that stop in St Albans city.

The advice above is good, but let me pull out a few points that may be more straightforward to follow.

If the railway person at St Pancras did not take your name and address, you have nothing to worry about - that means that they understood that you'd made a mistake, and nothing more will happen.

If they did take your name and address, then it is important to keep an eye out to see if the railway write to you. If for some reason you stop having access to the address you have given, it makes sense to have your mail redirected so you don't miss any letters. This isn't free, but you can find out how to do it at https://www.royalmail.com/personal/receiving-mail/redirection.

It may be that the railway don't write to you. That (again) will mean that they do understand that you'd made a mistake, and nothing more will happen. But you will only know that they aren't going to write when around seven months have passed (why seven months? Because if the railway do decide to take you to court, they have to take the prosecution to court within six months, and the court then has to advise you - which might take a few weeks. Six months plus a few weeks equals about seven months.).

If the railway do write to you, it's important to keep in touch with them. You've already told us what happened, so try and keep a copy of what you sent to us in your original message: that's what the railway will need to know. And as people have said, keep a note of what tickets you held on the day when this happened.

But just because they have written, that doesn't mean that you will have to go to court. It may be that once you have sent them more information, they will understand what has happened and not want to punish you. Or they may be prepared to 'settle out of court' (which means that you make a payment to them instead of being taken to court). So even if you get a letter, don't panic!

If you'd like us to help you, we can look at what you want to send to the railway, so please come back and let us know if the railway do write to you.
Hi, Thank you for your advices and about mail redirect, I will be so far in the same address.
 
Last edited:

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,477
Location
Reading
Did you have a zone 1-3 travelcard on your Oystercard that was valid on that day?
 

MikeWh

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Did you have a zone 1-3 travelcard on your Oystercard that was valid on that day?
That has actually been answered two posts above yours. Sadly it was held up because the forum spam filter saw the word money.
 

WesternLancer

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So the issue here will be that the OP owned a valid travelcard, but not with them on this journey? And would not have touched in on PAYG Oyster?

I think they have to write when they get contacted to explain, you may hope that being able to show they owned tickets, and the small fare involved, may mean a good letter could minimise any impact on the OP. Would be pretty crazy for that to go to court IMHO.

We can no doubt help with letter content, and / or Student Union should be able to help.

Thanks to OP for answering the various questions

Given the travel time looks like the OP overpaid fare anyway! Hardly the actions of a fare evader...
 

crablab

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Would it not be helpful for the OP to have a copy of their journey history from TfL saved? Presumably this shows that after they touched back in at Kings Cross Underground, and exited at Cricklewood.
 

30907

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From what you have told us, you have not been charged a penalty fare.
So the issue here will be that the OP owned a valid travelcard, but not with them on this journey? And would not have touched in on PAYG Oyster?
As post #10 says, the OP did not have a Travelcard at the time.
 

WesternLancer

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From what you have told us, you have not been charged a penalty fare.

As post #10 says, the OP did not have a Travelcard at the time.
I am unclear if the OP means he had a valid travelcard, but not with him (had left it at home) or the travelcard is expired?
 

Haywain

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I am unclear if the OP means he had a valid travelcard, but not with him (had left it at home) or the travelcard is expired?
The OP's words seem clear to most of us:
I had my oyster card with money on it but not travelcard zone 1-3 at that time,

Would it not be helpful for the OP to have a copy of their journey history from TfL saved? Presumably this shows that after they touched back in at Kings Cross Underground, and exited at Cricklewood.
Touching in at Kings Cross underground to travel to somewhere in the vicinity of Cricklewood does not equate to paying for a journey from Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras when a ticket to Cricklewood was held.
 

crablab

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Touching in at Kings Cross underground to travel to somewhere in the vicinity of Cricklewood does not equate to paying for a journey from Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras when a ticket to Cricklewood was held.
I appreciate that, but it does add weight to the OP's version of events.
 

ale

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I am unclear if the OP means he had a valid travelcard, but not with him (had left it at home) or the travelcard is expired?
Hi, I did not have at that time a travelcard, I had credit or pays you go in two oystercards, the student and an extra oyster card that I always bring with me in case something happen along with the student oyster card.

So the issue here will be that the OP owned a valid travelcard, but not with them on this journey? And would not have touched in on PAYG Oyster?

I think they have to write when they get contacted to explain, you may hope that being able to show they owned tickets, and the small fare involved, may mean a good letter could minimise any impact on the OP. Would be pretty crazy for that to go to court IMHO.

We can no doubt help with letter content, and / or Student Union should be able to help.

Thanks to OP for answering the various questions

Given the travel time looks like the OP overpaid fare anyway! Hardly the actions of a fare evader...
Hi, thank you for your advices, when the rail company contact me, I will let you know and for sure I will appreciate your advice in writing my answer.
 
Last edited:

WesternLancer

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Hi, I did not have at that time a travelcard, I had credit or pays you go in two oystercards, the student and an extra oyster card that I always bring with me in case something happen along with the student oyster card.


Hi, thank you for your advices, when the rail company contact me, I will let you know and for sure I will appreciate your advice in writing my answer.
One other question @ale
Can I just ask (and I can think of several perfectly legit reasons for it) but what was your reason for not, when you arrived at St Pancras, cross to the northbound platform and take the next train (not tube) back to Cricklewood?
Given the trains run every 15 mins and the journey is appox 15 mins long - why did you seek to leave the St Pancras barrier and then go on the underground to take the tube instead?

I suspect it is your reason to do this that alerted and caused suspicion on the part of the member of staff at the barrier. So a clear explanation for this will help you respond.

For example, it may be that there is a tube station nearer your house then cricklewood railway station, so once near the tube at St Pancras it mirth have been logical for you to think to swap to the tube, if that is indeed accurate.
 

ale

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One other question @ale
Can I just ask (and I can think of several perfectly legit reasons for it) but what was your reason for not, when you arrived at St Pancras, cross to the northbound platform and take the next train (not tube) back to Cricklewood?
Given the trains run every 15 mins and the journey is appox 15 mins long - why did you seek to leave the St Pancras barrier and then go on the underground to take the tube instead?

I suspect it is your reason to do this that alerted and caused suspicion on the part of the member of staff at the barrier. So a clear explanation for this will help you respond.

For example, it may be that there is a tube station nearer your house then cricklewood railway station, so once near the tube at St Pancras it mirth have been logical for you to think to swap to the tube, if that is indeed accurate.
Hi, the reason why I decided to exit in king Cross was because I was coming from Luton and to go to cricklewood I should stoped in St Albans city (that train do not stop at cricklewood, there is not direct train from Luton to cricklewood) and after change to another train in St Alban that stop in Crickelwood, I think is just one stop ftom Crickelwood. As I missed St Albans c stop and I did not know how to back or if there is a train from King Cross to crickelwood( I do not use almost never the train, just underground) I just though that the most practical was take the underground because I know the way and was easier than start to ask if there was a train to crickelwood or from which plataform. While I was organising in my head the posible way to go home, I also did not realised that the ticket was not valid to exit in king Cross and that is why I asked the barrier guardian why the door did not open.
 

WesternLancer

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Hi, the reason why I decided to exit in king Cross was because I was coming from Luton and to go to cricklewood I should stoped in St Albans city (that train do not stop at cricklewood, there is not direct train from Luton to cricklewood) and after change to another train in St Alban that stop in Crickelwood, I think is just one stop ftom Crickelwood. As I missed St Albans c stop and I did not know how to back or if there is a train from King Cross to crickelwood( I do not use almost never the train, just underground) I just though that the most practical was take the underground because I know the way and was easier than start to ask if there was a train to crickelwood or from which plataform. While I was organising in my head the posible way to go home, I also did not realised that the ticket was not valid to exit in king Cross and that is why I asked the barrier guardian why the door did not open.
OK thanks - you will need to think how to explain that clearly to them when they write to you - or ask here for help with your letter - as many railway staff I think would instinctively assume that a person who missed a stop would go back the same way they had come (on the basis that trains usually stop at the same stations going both ways) - I know you may not have known that but I think that is how people who work on the railway will tend to think, and thus they will think you were deliberately 'short faring' - but you have set down enough to show that you have not aimed to do that in my view - just a case of hoping they understand that when the time comes.
 

ale

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One other question @ale
Can I just ask (and I can think of several perfectly legit reasons for it) but what was your reason for not, when you arrived at St Pancras, cross to the northbound platform and take the next train (not tube) back to Cricklewood?
Given the trains run every 15 mins and the journey is appox 15 mins long - why did you seek to leave the St Pancras barrier and then go on the underground to take the tube instead?

I suspect it is your reason to do this that alerted and caused suspicion on the part of the member of staff at the barrier. So a clear explanation for this will help you respond.

For example, it may be that there is a tube station nearer your house then cricklewood railway station, so once near the tube at St Pancras it mirth have been logical for you to think to swap to the tube, if that is indeed accurate.
I also though in back to St Albans and there take the train to crickelwood but were many
OK thanks - you will need to think how to explain that clearly to them when they write to you - or ask here for help with your letter - as many railway staff I think would instinctively assume that a person who missed a stop would go back the same way they had come (on the basis that trains usually stop at the same stations going both ways) - I know you may not have known that but I think that is how people who work on the railway will tend to think, and thus they will think you were deliberately 'short faring' - but you have set down enough to show that you have not aimed to do that in my view - just a case of hoping they understand that when the time comes.
Thank you, we will se what happens, I have a question, the guardian keept my tickets Is that common?
 

WesternLancer

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I also though in back to St Albans and there take the train to crickelwood but were many

Thank you, we will se what happens, I have a question, the guardian keept my tickets Is that common?
yes, it would be. The ticket was expired (valid only to cricklewood) and I expect if they think you are a dare dodger you may use that ticket again to try to dodge another gate (just by having something that looked like ticket in your hand I guess) so they seem to keep them. Also evidence of a ticket valid to cricklewood being used at St Pancras, ie beyond it's validity, and thus proof you broke the rules, ie traveled on a train without a valid ticket (your ticket not being valid between Crickelwood and St Pancras).

And if you had had a ticket to St pancras then the railway would have kept that too (swallowed up by the ticket gate).

I assume the staff did not keep any other tickets - eg your oyster card?
 

ale

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yes, it would be. The ticket was expired (valid only to cricklewood) and I expect if they think you are a dare dodger you may use that ticket again to try to dodge another gate (just by having something that looked like ticket in your hand I guess) so they seem to keep them. Also evidence of a ticket valid to cricklewood being used at St Pancras, ie beyond it's validity, and thus proof you broke the rules, ie traveled on a train without a valid ticket (your ticket not being valid between Crickelwood and St Pancras).

And if you had had a ticket to St pancras then the railway would have kept that too (swallowed up by the ticket gate).

I assume the staff did not keep any other tickets - eg your oyster card?
No, he give me back my oyster and keept the orange tickets
 

ale

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Hi, Today arrived the letter from Govia Thameslink Railway, asking for an explanation of what happened that day. Could you guide me in how to write the letter? I have 14 days to answer from the date letter which s 15 October. Thanks
 

30907

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This is a first attempt, which others will, I hope, improve on:

"On dd/mm/yy at about (time) after a flight I bought an Anytime Single ticket from Luton (Airport Parkway? you say "City") to Cricklewood.
I am not familiar with the route as I do not do this journey often/regularly/have never done it before. (choose!)
A member of staff told me I needed to change at St Albans for Cricklewood.
Unfortunately I missed the stop at St Albans and was over-carried to St Pancras.

I did not know how to get back to Cricklewood, so I attempted to leave the station and catch a Tube (as I knew how to get home from Cricklewood tube station).
I had an Oyster card with enough credit, and used it for this at about (time).
My ticket did not work the barriers, and this is when I was challenged.

I realise now that I should have asked advice and would have been told to catch a train back to Cricklewood from the other platform; however, I did not know this then, and tried to get home by a route I knew.

By trying to use the barrier I probably gave the impression that I was trying to evade paying the correct fare. I apologise unreservedly for my mistake, and hope you will accept that I was not attempting to defraud the railway.

(I know that fare evasion costs the railway a considerable amount. I also realise that investigating cases like this is costly in staff time. I hope you will agree to settle this informally. I am, of course, willing to pay the difference in fares plus an amount to cover the expense of your investigation.)"

Please re-word this in a way that you are comfortable with.

I am not sure whether you should include the last paragraph - maybe that should wait for the follow-up if they do not offer a settlement immediately.

What do others think?
 
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