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UK face coverings discussion

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MikeWM

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He is extremely pro-mask, even wanting them mandatory outdoors.

He was fairly clear about it before the election; it is pretty much his only policy position we heard about over here. I posted some similar comments by him earlier in this thread, here, although at that point he was claiming 'every major study' said that doing so would save over 100,000 lives - seems that has fallen to 40,000 in just the last month. Gotta love those modelers, eh?

It doesn't say a lot for his rational thinking skills.
 
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bramling

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Have to see which idiot is more dangerous. They both have a lot of potential!

It’s rather depressing that the bar for Trump’s presidency is that we’re all thankful that four years have elapsed without some mad war (for example with North Korea) having happened.

The masks situation in America is ridiculous though, the way they have been politicised.
 

WM Bus

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Very interesting post regarding Green Bus, Hockley, Birmingham.
According to the post, they have a policy of "no mask, no travel", failing to take into account exemptions and refusing access to the service to exempt children/disabled children with valid exemptions.

Now, firstly IM is subject to DfT guidelines, not DfE, but as a former teacher, he is maybe a bit tunnel vision. Even if he was following DfE guidance though, he would have to allow exempt students the same rights as non-exempt ones. It’s the law. All the government’s coronavirus guidance, from whichever department it originates, insists that operators of public services must consider their compliance with existing equalities legislation when devising their coronavirus response measures. IM appears totally ignorant of this fact, despite having been challenged by several individual parents on the matter. He simply refuses to budge and is refusing access to any student (whether validly exempt or not) without a mask. He has even set up a dedicated line for children to “grass” on other children using the service if they are not wearing a mask throughout the journey to school! This totally goes against the DfT’s “Coronavirus guidance for transport operators” which aims to encourage passenger compliance rather than to enforce it, and leaves room for valid exemptions. Imagine a shop or a cafe trying to open up without disabled access – this would exclude a whole set of people with a protected characteristic and therefore discriminate against them. This is exactly the same.

 

Baxenden Bank

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It’s rather depressing that the bar for Trump’s presidency is that we’re all thankful that four years have elapsed without some mad war (for example with North Korea) having happened.

The masks situation in America is ridiculous though, the way they have been politicised.
Still chance yet, Trump retains the job officailly, and has his finger on the big red button, until January.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Very interesting post regarding Green Bus, Hockley, Birmingham.
According to the post, they have a policy of "no mask, no travel", failing to take into account exemptions and refusing access to the service to exempt children/disabled children with valid exemptions.



Does the 'exemptions apply' message - having to specifically appear on posters in shops - apply to bus companies? The mask wearing requirements come under different Statutory Instruments.
 

MikeWM

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Does the 'exemptions apply' message - having to specifically appear on posters in shops - apply to bus companies? The mask wearing requirements come under different Statutory Instruments.

Unfortunately not - the relevant regulation is 2A of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Obligations of Undertakings) (England) Regulations 2020 - which can be found here - and that only applies to the 'Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place' regulations - ie. shops, hospitality, etc.

A random observation - a large number of the issues I've seen reported with over-zealous police and/or lack of recognition of exemptions seem to be in the West Midlands. Is there something specific going on there?
 

greyman42

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Back onto topic, does anyone know what the risks are of getting fined for not wearing a face mask on public transport? I'm going to be making a long journey on the train in the next few weeks and I don't look forward to having a face mask on for the whole journey.
If you are challenged by a member of staff just politely state that you are exempt, that should cover it. If the member of staff persists then remain polite but ask for their name regarding making a complaint and they will probably move on. Regarding the general public, it is none of their business. I would be surprised if you have any problems.
 

bramling

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If you are challenged by a member of staff just politely state that you are exempt, that should cover it. If the member of staff persists then remain polite but ask for their name regarding making a complaint and they will probably move on. Regarding the general public, it is none of their business. I would be surprised if you have any problems.

Be prepared for some dirty looks though.
 

hst43102

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If you are challenged by a member of staff just politely state that you are exempt, that should cover it. If the member of staff persists then remain polite but ask for their name regarding making a complaint and they will probably move on. Regarding the general public, it is none of their business. I would be surprised if you have any problems.
My problem is that I'm young and in good health and have no convincing "reason" for being exempt. I'm more than happy to wear a mask in the station, when boarding the train, and when going to the cafe/toilet on board, it's just while I'm seated that it seems particularly pointless. Is the chance of being fined very small?
 

MikeWM

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Slightly confused by the fact that "people who are covered by exemptions" opting to wear face coverings anyway due to "personal choice or feeling pressured". I thought exemptions would only apply to people who are actually unable to wear them, in which case they can hardly opt to wear them to avoid confrontation.

There's going to be a quite a collection of people who can wear one for some period of time but not the whole length of time required to get to your destination/finish your shopping/etc. I'm in that category, for example.

Some such may well choose to put one on for a minute or two to get past a ticket barrier/security guard/police officer and then remove it before it causes eg. an asthma attack. I started off doing this back in June when the rules first came in, but quickly decided that it was better to just not do it at all.
 

Scotrail12

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One thing I've noticed is that face nappies are now required when moving around a gym. It makes 0 sense. One goes exercising on a machine then when they finish, immediately go into their pocket fishing around for a mask and then on and off for every machine they use. Where is the logic in this?
 

MikeWM

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One thing I've noticed is that face nappies are now required when moving around a gym. It makes 0 sense. One goes exercising on a machine then when they finish, immediately go into their pocket fishing around for a mask and then on and off for every machine they use. Where is the logic in this?

There's no logic to it, of course. But that's one of the characteristics of abusive relationships - the rules set by the abuser don't make sense, and change regularly.
 

bramling

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My problem is that I'm young and in good health and have no convincing "reason" for being exempt. I'm more than happy to wear a mask in the station, when boarding the train, and when going to the cafe/toilet on board, it's just while I'm seated that it seems particularly pointless. Is the chance of being fined very small?
It depends.

If you’re prepared to say “I’m exempt” then the chance is zero.

If you’re prepared to keep a mask somewhere and pop it on then the chance is virtually zero, but this means you’d have to spend the journey keeping an eye out for the tiny chance of BTP. There’s always the option to keep a bottle of water on the table. Having a mask to hand is a riskier strategy then claiming exemption.

There are some mask obsessives about who may also cause trouble.

There's no logic to it, of course. But that's one of the characteristics of abusive relationships - the rules set by the abuser don't make sense, and change regularly.

There’s no logic to any of the mask requirements.

That’s what happens when we are gripped by collective hysteria, fuelled by people as accomplished as Cressida Dick and Matt Hancock.
 

hst43102

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It depends.

If you’re prepared to say “I’m exempt” then the chance is zero.

If you’re prepared to keep a mask somewhere and pop it on then the chance is virtually zero, but this means you’d have to spend the journey keeping an eye out for the tiny chance of BTP. There’s always the option to keep a bottle of water on the table. Having a mask to hand is a riskier strategy then claiming exemption.

There are some mask obsessives about who may also cause trouble.

I must say I would feel a lot more comfortable having a mask to hand than telling porky pies to the BTP!

I have plenty of scientific evidence to quote if a mask obsessive decides to mess with me!
 

island

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One thing I've noticed is that face nappies are now required when moving around a gym. It makes 0 sense. One goes exercising on a machine then when they finish, immediately go into their pocket fishing around for a mask and then on and off for every machine they use. Where is the logic in this?
It’s daft. It isn’t the law in England thankfully (notwithstanding that gyms are currently closed here).
 

35B

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I must say I would feel a lot more comfortable having a mask to hand than telling porky pies to the BTP!

I have plenty of scientific evidence to quote if a mask obsessive decides to mess with me!
You need to decide whether comfort or conscience matter more to you. If knowingly breaking the law bothers you, then you need to accept that it's compulsory and wear the mask. If you're not prepared to do that, then you need to choose between claiming an exemption in the knowledge that you aren't in a category entitled to one, or being on guard against someone catching you out for mask wearing, and accept the emotional discomfort of breaking a law. Finally, you have the option of confronting the law head on and acting as a conscientious objector, refusing to wear one and challenging anyone enforcing the law.

Each has drawbacks; you need to decide where your personal trade-offs are and how they apply to your values.
 

bramling

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You need to decide whether comfort or conscience matter more to you. If knowingly breaking the law bothers you, then you need to accept that it's compulsory and wear the mask. If you're not prepared to do that, then you need to choose between claiming an exemption in the knowledge that you aren't in a category entitled to one, or being on guard against someone catching you out for mask wearing, and accept the emotional discomfort of breaking a law. Finally, you have the option of confronting the law head on and acting as a conscientious objector, refusing to wear one and challenging anyone enforcing the law.

Each has drawbacks; you need to decide where your personal trade-offs are and how they apply to your values.

Personally I’d claim exemption. It’s possible to build a quite reasonable case for that, on the basis that the risk of transmitting germs to the face via the mask causes anxiety, which is a form of severe distress. That quite satisfactorily deals with any conscience issues as far as I’m concerned.

That sort of line doesn’t appear to have been tested in court, which suggests that claiming exemption is sufficient for things not to reach that point.

There’s certainly people who have been making their bottle or water and pack of biscuits last for the duration of their journey. This strategy I’d imagine is enough to avoid being fined, but not enough to avoid being requested by a police officer to put a mask on.
 

initiation

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Carl Henegan posts about the landmark Danish study into mask wearing... Facebook flags it as false information.

On this basis, how many articles saying masks 'save lives' have been flagged as false?
 

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kristiang85

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My problem is that I'm young and in good health and have no convincing "reason" for being exempt. I'm more than happy to wear a mask in the station, when boarding the train, and when going to the cafe/toilet on board, it's just while I'm seated that it seems particularly pointless. Is the chance of being fined very small?

I wear bandana coverings on UK trains, which is absolutely fine as they are a "face covering" and it's a lot more comfortable than having strings behind your ears and your breath being directed into your eyes.

I've bought a couple of these, and they are totally washable and reusable: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B087WV6SMY?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
 

hst43102

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Thanks so much for the help, everyone. I'll have to see what the conditions are like on the train.
You need to decide whether comfort or conscience matter more to you. If knowingly breaking the law bothers you, then you need to accept that it's compulsory and wear the mask. If you're not prepared to do that, then you need to choose between claiming an exemption in the knowledge that you aren't in a category entitled to one, or being on guard against someone catching you out for mask wearing, and accept the emotional discomfort of breaking a law. Finally, you have the option of confronting the law head on and acting as a conscientious objector, refusing to wear one and challenging anyone enforcing the law.

Each has drawbacks; you need to decide where your personal trade-offs are and how they apply to your values.

It's not so much knowingly breaking the law that bothers me - I personally believe the law is wrong and unnecessarily authoritarian. It's more the fact that I would have to deal with the BTP, who are probably just doing their jobs and would prefer not to be enforcing these laws.
 

Skimpot flyer

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My council are denying the fact that the law states that shops should have their signage including a statement that exemptions are allowed.

This is the view of their legal council.

What next? Where do I go?
Do what I do. I’ve had a positive response from shops large and small by emailing them and advising them of the relevant legislation https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1008/regulation/2A

or posting on their Facebook / Twitter accounts, which is far more effective as they don’t like the negative publicity
He was fairly clear about it before the election; it is pretty much his only policy position we heard about over here. I posted some similar comments by him earlier in this thread, here, although at that point he was claiming 'every major study' said that doing so would save over 100,000 lives - seems that has fallen to 40,000 in just the last month. Gotta love those modelers, eh?

It doesn't say a lot for his rational thinking skills.
So is he saying that if you mask-up now instead of when he first asked, 60,000 extra deaths ‘will be on your conscience for not obeying sooner’ ? That’s the sort of shaming these maskivists like to bring to the table...
 

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VauxhallandI

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Do what I do. I’ve had a positive response from shops large and small by emailing them and advising them of the relevant legislation https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1008/regulation/2A

or posting on their Facebook / Twitter accounts, which is far more effective as they don’t like the negative publicity

So is he saying that if you mask-up now instead of when he first asked, 60,000 extra deaths ‘will be on your conscience for not obeying sooner’ ? That’s the sort of shaming these maskivists like to bring to the table...

I had already sent them the SI and guidance note highlighting the sections. They have taken their own “legal advice” and decided that it doesn’t say what we are saying which is very bizarre indeed.

I even anonymously quoted the Cancer Research example from. Here to show them the correct response and understanding but that made no difference

It’s very frustrating not being able to visit these people in the Council Office; I will not be treated like an idiot.

I lodged a formal complaint via email last night.
 

Bantamzen

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Carl Henegan posts about the landmark Danish study into mask wearing... Facebook flags it as false information.

On this basis, how many articles saying masks 'save lives' have been flagged as false?
What's shocking about this is that Facebook claim to have checked this through "independent fact checkers". I'd love to see who they are.
 

Mag_seven

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What's shocking about this is that Facebook claim to have checked this through "independent fact checkers". I'd love to see who they are.
At the very least we need to know what "facts" led them to that decision. We seem to be living in a very scary world where faceless "independent fact checkers" can effectively overrule an analysis done by the Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at a top university.
 

Richard Scott

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At the very least we need to know what "facts" led them to that decision. We seem to be living in a very scary world where faceless "independent fact checkers" can effectively overrule an analysis done by the Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at a top university.
Obviously free speech is no longer allowed. I cannot believe the world we're living in now compared to 12 months ago.
 

kez19

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I know I have previously slated the station but what about RT surely they could bend the rules on this?

However rather them (RT) only fact checking the UK Government, maybe fact check the devolved parliaments and see what the answer is?
 

island

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Obviously free speech is no longer allowed. I cannot believe the world we're living in now compared to 12 months ago.
Free speech is perfectly allowed; private platforms such as Facebook are not however required to provide access to them.
 

DB

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Free speech is perfectly allowed; private platforms such as Facebook are not however required to provide access to them.

The issue is that maby people think they do, and these platforms like to encourage this incorrect view.
 
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