May 2021 Timetable Change

[158756]

The previous idea for this service was that it would go to Manchester all day, as it currently does at peak times. That would also provide 2tph all day at Eccles and Patricroft. Of course it's rather off the table now...

I would argue that it is in fact reasonably necessary. Either Whiston and Rainhill are worth serving or they're not. If they're worth serving they need at least half-hourly to be any use. If they're not worth serving, close them. The same applies with the Lea Green / St Helens Junction split. Of course, going to Wigan via Golborne would be notably more useful than going to Warrington Bank Quay is. Indeed this was hinted at by the fact that one service terminated at Earlestown and immediately ran back to Liverpool Lime Street empty to resume another working. Not least because it would offer regular Newton-le-Willows to Wigan service.

Does this change also reduce St Helens Junction and Rainhill to 1tph, and Earlestown to Liverpool? Also all stations except St Helens between Huyton and Wigan now 'permanently' 1tph. Not great for a suburban stopping service.

With Preston-Manchester Victoria down to two-hourly as well it seems like the cuts are focused on the lines which just had a fortune spent on electrification a few years ago? If the TPE frequency over Chat Moss doesn't come back is there much need for the four tracking around Huyton either?

 

[geoffk]

it seems like quite a sensible plan reducing peak volumes whilst demand is still low.

But how long is Northern expecting demand to remain low? Presumably there will another change before December.

Does this change also reduce St Helens Junction and Rainhill to 1tph, and Earlestown to Liverpool? Also all stations except St Helens between Huyton and Wigan now 'permanently' 1tph. Not great for a suburban stopping service.

With Preston-Manchester Victoria down to two-hourly as well it seems like the cuts are focused on the lines which just had a fortune spent on electrification a few years ago? If the TPE frequency over Chat Moss doesn't come back is there much need for the four tracking around Huyton either?

None of this is "permanent" is it? Surely until Covid is out of the way or at least until demand starts to pick up again. Peak-hour extras and long-distance trains will probably be another matter.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This is repeat of a misleading story that first appeared some time ago. There is definitely no dedicated airport service, as others have said. There was a flurry of these stories mid 2019, here’s an example:

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/08/20/new-express-service-to-run-between-luton-airport-and-london-st-pancras/

Seems quite a few media outlets are running the same inaccuracies in the last day or so, theres no evidence EMR intend an airport express branding, in the way it’s been done for Heathrow and Gatwick...

Hopefully there will be single fare approach at Luton Airport Parkway and not the farce with Gatwick Express being so over priced that barely anyone uses the trains and there being a Southern and thameslink fare despite there all the same operator.

Although given GX has effectively been suspended since Covid reductions were implemented it might never return given that Gatwick is suffering more than Luton is currently.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hopefully there will be single fare approach at Luton Airport Parkway and not the farce with Gatwick Express being so over priced that barely anyone uses the trains and there being a Southern and thameslink fare despite there all the same operator.p

Why would there be a fares issue if there‘s absolutely no evidence of a separate service?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Why would there be a fares issue if there‘s absolutely no evidence of a separate service?

I hope not but that's the case at Gatwick Airport so as you will have two different operators EMR and Thameslink at Luton had the franchises remained there may have been an attempt to provide different fares to drive revenues but no longer relevant with EMRAs.

 

[clagmonster]

Any changes to the hallam and penistone line coming waiting for the Leeds to Lincoln service to back.

Are there any changes to Leeds - Nottingham?

Both listed as no change.

To be honest, from what has been said the past few months, with all the delays to crew training I would expect it to be May 2022 at the earliest before things get back completely to full timetable.

In my opinion, lack of peak extras is probably sensible at this stage, I am sure that this will be reviewed if people return to commuting into Leeds in large numbers. That said, they can only run what they can crew.

The one change I would like to see is the Hull - Doncaster stopper reinstated, perhaps partly at the expense of the Scarborough - Sheffield.

 

[Llandudno]

Both listed as no change.

To be honest, from what has been said the past few months, with all the delays to crew training I would expect it to be May 2022 at the earliest before things get back completely to full timetable.

In my opinion, lack of peak extras is probably sensible at this stage, I am sure that this will be reviewed if people return to commuting into Leeds in large numbers. That said, they can only run what they can crew.

The one change I would like to see is the Hull - Doncaster stopper reinstated, perhaps partly at the expense of the Scarborough - Sheffield.

Sheffield - Hull - Bridlington - Scarbados maybe extra busy this summer..!

 

[clagmonster]

I would keep the full service on the Wolds coast, I agree that stretch will be busy and will need the 2tph south of Brid. What I would be looking to do is run an hourly Hull - Doncaster all shacks (preferably running through to Sheffield in the path of the Scarbs) to provide a decent service for Hessle, Ferriby, Gilberdyke and Thorne North and improve the service at Stainford and Kirk Sandall.

 

[northernchris]

Both listed as no change.

To be honest, from what has been said the past few months, with all the delays to crew training I would expect it to be May 2022 at the earliest before things get back completely to full timetable.

In my opinion, lack of peak extras is probably sensible at this stage, I am sure that this will be reviewed if people return to commuting into Leeds in large numbers. That said, they can only run what they can crew.

The one change I would like to see is the Hull - Doncaster stopper reinstated, perhaps partly at the expense of the Scarborough - Sheffield.

Is the Doncaster - Hull stopper not retaining its 2 trains per 3 hour service? If not that means stations like Kirk Sandall go from half hourly to 2 hourly

 

[Starmill]

None of this is "permanent" is it? Surely until Covid is out of the way or at least until demand starts to pick up again. Peak-hour extras and long-distance trains will probably be another matter.

Depends on your definition of "permanent", but I think it's clear that some of the changes aren't going to be reversed. The Atherton line going from 3 to 2tph is a prime example. Other elements are in a weird limbo, such as the 2tph interpeak between Blackburn and Manchester via Bolton, and the 1tph interpeak for Blackrod and Adlington. The second Chat Moss stopper now falls into this category.

 

[Iskra]

Can anyone elaborate on EMR's planned change, they say they will still continue with one London train per day to Leeds, returning to Derby only. Does anyone know which train this will be (ie will it actually be any use to passengers or is it going to be very early/late).

Also, why are they continuing to serve Leeds? Retaining route knowledge just in case for the future? And will this be a 222 that does this journey now?

 

[43055]

Can anyone elaborate on EMR's planned change, they say they will still continue with one London train per day to Leeds, returning to Derby only. Does anyone know which train this will be (ie will it actually be any use to passengers or is it going to be very early/late).

Also, why are they continuing to serve Leeds? Retaining route knowledge just in case for the future? And will this be a 222 that does this journey now?

I have no idea why they are continuing to Leeds. To me it just seems a bit pointless when it's just once a day probably in the evening given it will return to Derby. Most likely after 1930 from Sheffield as that is currently the last of the 30 min departures to London.

 

[Iskra]

I have no idea why they are continuing to Leeds. To me it just seems a bit pointless when it's just once a day probably in the evening given it will return to Derby. Most likely after 1930 from Sheffield as that is currently the last of the 30 min departures to London.

I agree. They are continuing to York on Sundays with 2 trains, do these run via Leeds, Doncaster or Pontefract? If Leeds, then continuing to serve Leeds each day would make slightly more sense?

 

[43055]

I agree. They are continuing to York on Sundays with 2 trains, do these run via Leeds, Doncaster or Pontefract? If Leeds, then continuing to serve Leeds each day would make slightly more sense?

York is via Doncaster

 

[swt_passenger]

I agree. They are continuing to York on Sundays with 2 trains, do these run via Leeds, Doncaster or Pontefract? If Leeds, then continuing to serve Leeds each day would make slightly more sense?

Doncaster. We discussed it earlier in this thread, referencing the track access applications. Please follow the second link in post #44. Also only one train on Sunday now, although that might be a temporary reduction...

 

[DDB]

I have no idea why they are continuing to Leeds. To me it just seems a bit pointless when it's just once a day probably in the evening given it will return to Derby. Most likely after 1930 from Sheffield as that is currently the last of the 30 min departures to London.

I have also been wondering that. The current pandemic timetable has cut the weekday Leeds extensions apart from those that would otherwise run ECS to start and end the two remaining HST diagrams at Leeds for access to the depot yet keeps some Leeds and York extensions are running at weekends.

My only guess at a reason to keep these in from May is that it is for route retention purposes to allow extra services to be run relatively easily from STP to York/Leeds during planned engineering closures of the southern part of the the ECML. However this seems too much forward planning and cross TOC cooperation to be true.

 

[Iskra]

I have also been wondering that. The current pandemic timetable has cut the weekday Leeds extensions apart from those that would otherwise run ECS to start and end the two remaining HST diagrams at Leeds for access to the depot yet keeps some Leeds and York extensions are running at weekends.

My only guess at a reason to keep these in from May is that it is for route retention purposes to allow extra services to be run relatively easily from STP to York/Leeds during planned engineering closures of the southern part of the the ECML. However this seems too much forward planning and cross TOC cooperation to be true.

I asked EMR on Twitter and they said;

There is still an expectation for us to have a token service to Leeds at this time, this will be on a weekday evening only and will return from Leeds to Derby. ^PB

https://twitter.com/EastMidRailway/status/1360979276233904130

This implies it has come from the DFT

 

[swt_passenger]

I asked EMR on Twitter and they said;

https://twitter.com/EastMidRailway/status/1360979276233904130

This implies it has come from the DFT

Discussions here over the last couple of years suggest the opposite. There was no DfT requirement to serve Leeds at all in the franchise ITT. I wouldn’t expect the Twitter team to be aware of the exact details either.

 

[Iskra]

Discussions here over the last couple of years suggest the opposite. There was no DfT requirement to serve Leeds at all in the franchise ITT. I wouldn’t expect the Twitter team to be aware of the exact details either.

There were clear depot related reasons previously. Those obviously don’t exist anymore.

 

[Glenn1969]

Think they mentioned something about need for more seats early evening Derby- Sheffield- Leeds and vv.

 

[Iskra]

Think they mentioned something about need for more seats early evening Derby- Sheffield- Leeds and vv.

Interesting

 

[Class 170101]

The other reason to keep Leeds is if the route from Sheffield to York via Doncaster is closed. The last block of this route I think you will find saw Cross Country run via Ferrybridge but EMT run via Leeds and then either Wakefield Westgate or Barnsley as they don't sign Ferrybridge.

 

[Iskra]

The other reason to keep Leeds is if the route from Sheffield to York via Doncaster is closed. The last block of this route I think you will find saw Cross Country run via Ferrybridge but EMT run via Leeds and then either Wakefield Westgate or Barnsley as they don't sign Ferrybridge.

They don’t do Leeds-York though do they?

 

[greyman42]

I agree. They are continuing to York on Sundays with 2 trains, do these run via Leeds, Doncaster or Pontefract? If Leeds, then continuing to serve Leeds each day would make slightly more sense?

Are there any timings yet?

 

[Glenn1969]

No May times on RTT except Freight

 

[bunnahabhain]

I just noticed 1 or 2 trains that freight is in the way of that's all. Remains to be seen whether they have been moved slightly to fit or removed etc. Also there is a curious thing in the track access document on Network Rail website where EMR applied to convert an ECS to passenger service at 22:00 Sheffield to Derby, but there was originally supposed to be a 22:00 Sheffield to London. So something weird is going on there. I suppose I should just be patient until all is confirmed.

There's one in at 2156 as far as Derby, perhaps its that one? Curiously for that route it isn't an "Intercity" train.

The other reason to keep Leeds is if the route from Sheffield to York via Doncaster is closed. The last block of this route I think you will find saw Cross Country run via Ferrybridge but EMT run via Leeds and then either Wakefield Westgate or Barnsley as they don't sign Ferrybridge.

Some certainly do sign Ferrybridge, I've been on a train that way on a Sunday in recent years, and The Pickering Paxman operated that way crewed by EMT staff (our GBRF conductors joined and alighted at York).

 

[g22]

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-02/s22-abellio-east-midlands-1st-sa-supplemental-agreement.pdf

EMR 1st Supplemental Agreement May 21 Timetable has now been approved by ORR apparently. Schedule 5 Table 2.2 seems to have additional passenger train slots York to London and London to York on Saturday and Sunday (in addition to the normal London to York, York to London on Saturday and Leicester to York, York to London on Sunday) so it seems there will be 2 each way to York if I am reading it correctly. It definitely says via Doncaster.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-02/s22-abellio-east-midlands-1st-sa-decision-letter.pdf

Can only hope that Covid doesn't ruin things.

 

[Iskra]

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-02/s22-abellio-east-midlands-1st-sa-supplemental-agreement.pdf

EMR 1st Supplemental Agreement May 21 Timetable has now been approved by ORR apparently. Schedule 5 Table 2.2 seems to have additional passenger train slots York to London and London to York on Saturday and Sunday (in addition to the normal London to York, York to London on Saturday and Leicester to York, York to London on Sunday) so it seems there will be 2 each way to York if I am reading it correctly. It definitely says via Doncaster.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-02/s22-abellio-east-midlands-1st-sa-decision-letter.pdf

Can only hope that Covid doesn't ruin things.

They confirmed 2 return trains on a Saturday to me on twitter on the above link.

 

[g22]

They confirmed 2 return trains on a Saturday to me on twitter on the above link.

Apologies, I did look at that twitter response but must have failed to click to reveal the final reply!

 

[Iskra]

Apologies, I did look at that twitter response but must have failed to click to reveal the final reply!

Sorry, that came across a bit blunt, I wasn’t criticising you, just confirming what you were saying