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Advice Only for Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud

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Gloster

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I'm not sure what the real purpose of Delay Repay is.
It is to give the impression that the government and the train operators care about passengers, rather than just regarding them as milch cows. If they did care, they would have developed an effective, reasonably simple and fair system repayment system. Fat chance.
 
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Watershed

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I don't see anything of the sort.

"For claims made under the industry arrangements (set out at paragraph 32.1.1 above) for losses caused by the delay and/or cancellation of a train service, you can only recover up to the price of your Ticket.

However, in exceptional circumstances, a Train Company may consider claims for other losses. This will be for the Train Company to decide in its sole discretion.
"

This clause refers to "the delay", so one delay, not multiple delays. It is clearly directed at contractual claims for losses such as consequential losses that exceed the amount offered under the rail industry's Delay Repay schemes and exceed the price of the ticket.

I'm not sure what the real purpose of Delay Repay is. But if the purpose is to compensate for the inconvenience of delays, offering total compensation greater than the value of a return ticket where a passenger has been significantly delayed on both the outward and return journeys is not, in my opinion, surprising or unreasonable. Nor is offering compensation worth more than the value of a ticket, in response to lengthy delays, any different to existing practice in the airline industry.
Like much of the NRCoT, it's open to interpretation. I'm sure the TOCs will be interpreting it the way I initially did, and that they will be attempting to limit payments accordingly (of course some have relevant clauses in their Charters anyway). I don't think this is likely to be tested in Court anytime soon though.
 

Hadders

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No, you are issued two coupons which make up one ticket.
But not in the case of an outboundary travelcard which is one coupon covering both the outward and return journey.
 

Wallsendmag

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You claim for the delay (in minutes), not for an amount in pounds. It is up to the train company to decide how much you are compensated. If they round-up or "over pay" you are free to accept their offer of compensation. If they then want a refund you can query it and possibly charge for your time in doing so.

"claims" are limited to the price paid for a ticket, but it is unclear if that is per claim or for all claims on one ticket. For a return journey you are issued two tickets. (Out & return).
You are issued two coupons for a return ticket but it is definately only one ticket. Obviously if you use two single products to form a return journey then that would be two tickets.
 

sefton

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Well the learning point from this thread seems to be that it is quite foolish to use a smartcard where the data from it can be subject to different interpretation.

I am certain that the train company I used in the past would have had a wonderful time if I had used a smartcard. Until last year I worked in an office in London with no fixed hours. The building was open from 7am and if you wanted to stay after 7pm you only needed to notify the security guard. No minimum hours, so if you fancied leaving at lunchtime, no problem - the important thing was a successful outcome for the tasks being undertaken.

So that meant on a warm summer's day I might be on the 6am train, the following day I might have a few tasks around the house before setting off on the 10am train. On the way back it might be the 5pm train, but it might be the 3pm train if I had come in early, or it might be the 10pm if I had been out in town. No pattern at all.

With the time it would take to drive to my home station less than the time the train took to reach their from its origin, I would never set off until it had departed. If cancelled I wouldn't leave home - that would be stupid to wait at the station pointlessly. But I was intending to catch it. I wouldn't catch the following train because it would obviously now be full of two trainloads of customers and I would need to stand all the way to London, so would catch the following service. Obviously a Delay Repay claim would go in based on the original train I had intended to catch based on the delay of *that* train.

As for the "the train company might have put a taxi on" - pull the other one. Not a cat in hells chance they were going to do that for the few hundred people waiting for the cancelled train to take them the 60 miles into London. And putting an additional stop on trains - nope. More likely they would run them through non-stop to minimise delays elsewhere as we were already late.

Similarly on the way home, my office was 15 minutes walk from the London terminus so there would be a check every afternoon that the train I wanted to catch hadn't been cancelled before I headed off to the station. If it was work a bit longer, but as with the morning, no way am I catching the following service as it will be overcrowded. And again a a Delay Repay claim would go in based on the original train I had intended to catch based on the delay of *that* train.

If there was a lot of disruption on the way home (not that infrequent), then it would head out to the pub / museum / restaurant and catch something substantially later when everything had died down. And again a a Delay Repay claim would go in based on the original train I had intended to catch based on the delay of *that* train.

Now had I been using a smartcard then I have no doubt that someone could look at the absence of a pattern and go 'but, but, but... they claimed for the 4pm train but actually caught the 6pm, or 7pm, or 9pm train and never intended to catch the 4pm'. However they would be wrong.

Could I prove that I was going to catch the 4pm train. Well I would have as much evidence as they would have to argue that they believed I was not going to catch the 4pm train. At the end of the day the system is based on trust, but would I trust someone not to interpret smartcard data in their favour. Not a chance.

Anyway, if we are talking about the stupidity of Delay Repay, the journey that always amused me was one I had to make every month or so. It was a 7 hour journey involving two changes of train and I knew from sorry experience that the timings allowed by the National Rail enquiries system for changes were completely inadequate and there was no chance I would make the connections to the infrequent local service - was it immoral to book that train knowing that the journey would be free or at minimum half price, because it was - every time.
 

eoff

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Well the learning point from this thread seems to be that it is quite foolish to use a smartcard where the data from it can be subject to different interpretation.
Not at all, the learning point is to keep records if you claim from others.
 

43096

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Not at all, the learning point is to keep records if you claim from others.
I disagree. I can totally see Sefton's point - how do you prove that you were going to get the 5pm train? Whilst some on this thread have tried it on, this is pretty obviously a fishing expedition by the TOC on top of catching those who have made false claims. Using Smartcard data 12 months+ later for something that you can't actually prove is an appalling use of data.

Far better to use paper tickets.
 

ashkeba

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Using Smartcard data 12 months+ later for something that you can't actually prove is an appalling use of data.
Well https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/privacy-policy claims under "revenue protection data" which includes data at station gate lines
Why we retain your information

We retain your information to undertake analysis to identify any patterns in the data and to minimise future fraudulent activities.

Length of time records are kept

Records are kept for a maximum of 12 months.

There is no exceptions or maybes, so have GA just revealed that they commited a privacy crime of lying about data retention?

And anyone who was trying to look up how long to keep delay evidence might have found that policy and thought they only needed keeping the last 12 months.

This fishing stinks.
 

packermac

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The elephant in the room is that "Delay Repay" does not appear to be defined consistently and accurately anywhere in the public domain. There is a lot of genuine confusion about what would or would not constitute a valid claim, so in cases like these, you're left to fall back on whether or not any of the declarations made while applying were manifestly false. As has already been mentioned, elements of GA's claims process are open to varying interpretations. So, realistically, it's only the most egregious abuses that could be pursued - both the passenger and the company seem to have significant margins of discretion in claims at the moment. Amazingly, the paper form doesn't even require any explicit declaration - everything is based on informal and implicit assumptions and interpretations of ill-defined terms such as "your train". It asks for length of delay and implies that up to 59 minutes that means the length of delay to the train you were on (which might be different from the delay to your journey), whereas 60 minutes or over it means the delay to you (which might be different from the delay to "your train"). Or in other words, there remain a lot of grey areas in these schemes.

So while posters in this forum have evolved towards a generally-agreed nuanced interpretation of what should or should not constitute a valid claim, that's largely based on the application of "common sense" to the intentions that are thought to be behind the scheme and hearsay about successful and unsuccessful claims and appeals.

The question facing people in receipt of one of these letters is whether or not any of their contentious claims fall clearly outside any of the grey areas such that they should not have been submitted in the way that they were.
I think you have pretty much hit it on the head here.
People should play by the rules, but it seems maybe "the rules" or at least their interpretation is only known to one side, and perhaps be changed at will?
I have said before I have no truck with people who abuse the system, and have also said before I do not agree with Delay Repay, but it is forced on TOC's so people should use it.
What it seems to me, especially for those with season smartcards is that the system is seriously loaded to the benefit of the TOC.
So say you have a season on the line from Ipswich to London. If your station has no barriers I guess you could tap in for the train you want and if it is cancelled go get a coffee, breakfast etc. However on a gated station, certainly Liverpool Street say you always take the 18:00 it would appear you need to tap in and stay on the platform to have a valid claim otherwise GA will claim you were not aiming for that train. Yes if you see it is cancelled/long delay and you go off to the pub or to have dinner I think you have forgone a claim, unless of course your later train is delayed. But why should you have to wait on the platform? In some places this could be in rain or falling snow, last time I was at Liverpool St they often would not let you on the platform if the train was not yet in.
It just all seems in favour of the TOC, who can then come up 18 months later with a request for evidence that you will never remember and could not prove anyway.
Of course do away with it all and it ceases to be an issue.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Well https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/privacy-policy claims under "revenue protection data" which includes data at station gate lines


There is no exceptions or maybes, so have GA just revealed that they commited a privacy crime of lying about data retention?

And anyone who was trying to look up how long to keep delay evidence might have found that policy and thought they only needed keeping the last 12 months.

This fishing stinks.
I'm pretty sure you'll not get too far with that arguement. The TOC would simply need to prove to the ICO why the data was retained for longer than advertised. A reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, even if later ruled out would be perfectly acceptable.

People think that GDPR and Data Protection is a magic stick to hit people with, but it's actually fairly flexible in practice.

In any event you are looking at the wrong section. The section you are looking at seems to be more around penalty fares and ticket inspection activity.

How we use your personal data

This information is used for administration of correspondence or processing claims you have made, such as delay repay as well as for fraud prevention purposes. We also use it to respond to complaints.

Why we retain your information

We retain your information to ensure that all claims are processed properly, to undertake analysis to minimise potential fraud and identify themes and patterns in the data.

Length of time records are kept

Records are kept for the length of the franchise in a restricted access site to allow analysis and identify themes and patterns.
 

ashkeba

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I'm pretty sure you'll not get too far with that arguement. The TOC would simply need to prove to the ICO why the data was retained for longer than advertised. A reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, even if later ruled out would be perfectly acceptable.
I have no need to get anywhere with this argument yet. I also am sure that they could retain data longer but they say they do not, which is strange. Surely they should not lie about it?

In any event you are looking at the wrong section. The section you are looking at seems to be more around penalty fares and ticket inspection activity.
No, I quoted the correct section that covers gate line data. You appear to have quoted the customer relations database data section. That covers delay repay claims I submit but not the gate line taps. I think this is strange but it is what they have posted.
 

jon0844

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I'd imagine gatelines store data for a limited period to manage billing, with regular updates from the gate to the gateline server that won't be at the local station.

Selected data is then transferred for safe keeping into a secure area for things like fraud detection or claims of incorrect billing further down the line. Access to this will be very restricted.

From the quotes above, it seems the TOC is being quite transparent about what it does.

I think we probably saw this on the TV series that followed TfL's fraud department on investigating fraud over a long period of time.
 

ashkeba

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From the quotes above, it seems the TOC is being quite transparent about what it does.
Transparent but incorrect. It would probably be legal for them to keep data longer if they did not lie about it and surprise claimants with tap data months after they said they destroy it.
 

jon0844

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Transparent but incorrect. It would probably be legal for them to keep data longer if they did not lie about it and surprise claimants with tap data months after they said they destroy it.

There can be two stores of data. The gatelines don't need to keep data for any great length of time, and may be managed by an outside agency (does Cubic manage the data for example?). The TOC could hold much more data, under far more secure conditions with very limited access and a very strict data trail.

I cannot see an issue if this is stated "Length of time records are kept: Records are kept for the length of the franchise in a restricted access site to allow analysis and identify themes and patterns."

How is anyone lying? It literally says they will hold the data for the length of the franchise!
 

Wolfie

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There can be two stores of data. The gatelines don't need to keep data for any great length of time, and may be managed by an outside agency (does Cubic manage the data for example?). The TOC could hold much more data, under far more secure conditions with very limited access and a very strict data trail.

I cannot see an issue if this is stated "Length of time records are kept: Records are kept for the length of the franchise in a restricted access site to allow analysis and identify themes and patterns."

How is anyone lying? It literally says they will hold the data for the length of the franchise!
Well for a start it assumes that all cases would be resolved within the length of the franchise and no data passed to any successor.... That might be rather awkward mid-litigation or prosecution....
 

jon0844

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Well for a start it assumes that all cases would be resolved within the length of the franchise and no data passed to any successor.... That might be rather awkward mid-litigation or prosecution....

Perhaps that gets negotiated at the time of the changeover. In any case, going forward I suppose it will all be down to the DfT.
 

35B

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There can be two stores of data. The gatelines don't need to keep data for any great length of time, and may be managed by an outside agency (does Cubic manage the data for example?). The TOC could hold much more data, under far more secure conditions with very limited access and a very strict data trail.

I cannot see an issue if this is stated "Length of time records are kept: Records are kept for the length of the franchise in a restricted access site to allow analysis and identify themes and patterns."

How is anyone lying? It literally says they will hold the data for the length of the franchise!
The (very poorly laid out) Data Protection Policy lists gateline data within the category "Revenue Protection and Penalty Fares", which explicitly states that "Records are kept for a maximum of 12 months". The "length of franchise" provision is solely for the section entitled "Customer Relations Database".

What appears to complicate the matter is that processing of Delay Repay falls under "Customer Relations Database", but the data being used for analysis is processed under the terms of the Privacy Policy for "Revenue Protection and Penalty Fares".

That suggests to this non-lawyer that, should AGA try to use such data in proceedings, they would have to answer difficult questions about the legitimacy of their using data processed outside of the constraints of their Data Protection Policy. Those in turn might lead to interesting conversations about why that data is being kept beyond the retention limit.

My personal hunch is that these cases are a scenario not considered by AGA when the policy was written and, if ICO were a proactive and assertive regulator, could lead to difficult questions about AGA's compliance with law.
Perhaps that gets negotiated at the time of the changeover. In any case, going forward I suppose it will all be down to the DfT.
I think that could be tricky; GDPR is based on the rights of the data subject, not what a company or government department might find convenient. My experience, decidedly inconveniently, is that trasnfers between TOCs have involved requiring user accounts to be created anew.

A good lawyer could have some quite profitable fun with this set of policies.
 

jon0844

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I would hope that going forward we'll finally get one body managing all ticketing (so then we'll have true interoperability) and things like fare evasion can be looked at nationally rather than by TOC.

Private companies will simply run the trains in much the same way as TfL or the TSGN management contract.

I am sure the Government will do things properly (sarcasm intended).
 

Wolfie

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The (very poorly laid out) Data Protection Policy lists gateline data within the category "Revenue Protection and Penalty Fares", which explicitly states that "Records are kept for a maximum of 12 months". The "length of franchise" provision is solely for the section entitled "Customer Relations Database".

What appears to complicate the matter is that processing of Delay Repay falls under "Customer Relations Database", but the data being used for analysis is processed under the terms of the Privacy Policy for "Revenue Protection and Penalty Fares".

That suggests to this non-lawyer that, should AGA try to use such data in proceedings, they would have to answer difficult questions about the legitimacy of their using data processed outside of the constraints of their Data Protection Policy. Those in turn might lead to interesting conversations about why that data is being kept beyond the retention limit.

My personal hunch is that these cases are a scenario not considered by AGA when the policy was written and, if ICO were a proactive and assertive regulator, could lead to difficult questions about AGA's compliance with law.

I think that could be tricky; GDPR is based on the rights of the data subject, not what a company or government department might find convenient. My experience, decidedly inconveniently, is that trasnfers between TOCs have involved requiring user accounts to be created anew.

A good lawyer could have some quite profitable fun with this set of policies.
That sounds about right....
 

SteveM70

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My experience, decidedly inconveniently, is that trasnfers between TOCs have involved requiring user accounts to be created anew.

Not sure about created anew, certainly with Northern I’m pretty sure I got an email with a button I could click to give them permission to migrate my data
 

Shawshank

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Hi everyone,

apologies for my tardy reply. Thanks for all the positive responses to my post.

I just wanted to provide some points of clarity from my previous post. As I reminder I advised GA that the large majority of my claims were instances where my intended train was delayed/cancelled I would go for dinner or beers and take a train a couple hours later. GA’s smartcard data corroborated this.

- I appreciate that the above example seems harsh and I maintain that the claims were still valid, GR did NOT explicitly say they were not.
- I would only claim for the delay experienced, I.E. I would claim 30 mins+ despite staying for 2 hours for beers.
- GA only said the expectation was the next available service would be taken, but did not say explicitly that what I’d done was a breach of DR rules.
- however there were a small number of examples that GA gave smartcard data for which showed that the delays reported in DR claims were longer than those actually experienced....is was this claims that GA used to ‘get me’

It would seem that as GA had empirical evidence to show that some of the claims were invalid/fraudulent...they basically saw it fit to decide that all my claims were invalid and asked for repayment of every claim I had made.

i did ask GA to provide a revised figure for repayment of those claims whereby I had clearly claimed an inflated amount which I would happily pay in full however they ignored this and just said they wanted the lot to close the case.

hands up, I did it.

anyway, just thought I’d clarify, it’s maybe not quite as harsh as it first seemed, but in any case I wanted this behind me and the consequence of legal action was not worth the money to make this go away.

i came to this forum simply to confirm the original letter was valid.

hopefully my experience helps/informs others in a similar position. Apologies in advance for any further delays in replying.
 

NorthWestRover

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I am very uneasy about this whole matter. It sounds like GA are using the fear of police action/court/prosecution to extract sums far larger than the actual value of fraudulent claims. I was shocked enough at the start that they were pursuing so many claims from more than a year ago. Now I'm hoping someone stands up to them and makes a big fuss about this.

I've only made two claims in my life - one in 2019, one in early 2020 (neither with GA). I'd be hard pressed to give you the details now other than the journeys from A to B. Only my recording of the unit numbers means I'd be able to confirm the date and even then one of the journeys I've made a few times, so I wouldn't be sure which one it was. How on earth run of the mill commuters are supposed to remember details of claims made over 12 months ago, I really don't know. They make dozens and dozens of pretty much the same journey and from my commuting days, I remember they all merge into one. If a claim is accepted, it shouldn't be pursued for repayment over a year later unless there is proof of significant and sustained fraud. It's ridiculous.
 

eoff

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The recent posts on GDPR make me think there may be an avenue to even up the information imbalance that people have posted about.
Ask the TOC for all personal information they have about you specifically including all historical information about ticket purchases and journey history. As far as I can tell they have a legal obligation to respond to a request for your data.
 

AlterEgo

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I am very uneasy about this whole matter. It sounds like GA are using the fear of police action/court/prosecution to extract sums far larger than the actual value of fraudulent claims. I was shocked enough at the start that they were pursuing so many claims from more than a year ago. Now I'm hoping someone stands up to them and makes a big fuss about this.

I've only made two claims in my life - one in 2019, one in early 2020 (neither with GA). I'd be hard pressed to give you the details now other than the journeys from A to B. Only my recording of the unit numbers means I'd be able to confirm the date and even then one of the journeys I've made a few times, so I wouldn't be sure which one it was. How on earth run of the mill commuters are supposed to remember details of claims made over 12 months ago, I really don't know. They make dozens and dozens of pretty much the same journey and from my commuting days, I remember they all merge into one. If a claim is accepted, it shouldn't be pursued for repayment over a year later unless there is proof of significant and sustained fraud. It's ridiculous.
The alternative is that GA prosecute those people who have defrauded them in court, for a much smaller amount - perhaps £100 or less, instead of several hundred quid as we've been seeing in the settlements. This would leave them with - if convicted - a criminal record, and a sentence on top of that.

I think there is a good reason why the posters here have decided to settle out of court and it is probably for the best, for both parties.
 

Horizon22

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I am very uneasy about this whole matter. It sounds like GA are using the fear of police action/court/prosecution to extract sums far larger than the actual value of fraudulent claims. I was shocked enough at the start that they were pursuing so many claims from more than a year ago. Now I'm hoping someone stands up to them and makes a big fuss about this.

I've only made two claims in my life - one in 2019, one in early 2020 (neither with GA). I'd be hard pressed to give you the details now other than the journeys from A to B. Only my recording of the unit numbers means I'd be able to confirm the date and even then one of the journeys I've made a few times, so I wouldn't be sure which one it was. How on earth run of the mill commuters are supposed to remember details of claims made over 12 months ago, I really don't know. They make dozens and dozens of pretty much the same journey and from my commuting days, I remember they all merge into one. If a claim is accepted, it shouldn't be pursued for repayment over a year later unless there is proof of significant and sustained fraud. It's ridiculous.

From what I've read from those involved though, everyone who has paid up has admitted making at least one let's say...exaggerated claim and has paid back some money accordingly. It may be that they've noticed irregularities and grouped them together as it might appear from the outset they are all fraudulent. Hence the asking for further information and details.
 

NorthWestRover

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It was Shawshank's update that prompted me to comment. He/she offered to pay what they had got fraudulently ; GA demanded repayment of the lot. Just seems off to me. Not quite PPI level, but there's something about the big company bullying passengers here.
 

Wolfie

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The recent posts on GDPR make me think there may be an avenue to even up the information imbalance that people have posted about.
Ask the TOC for all personal information they have about you specifically including all historical information about ticket purchases and journey history. As far as I can tell they have a legal obligation to respond to a request for your data.
It's called an SAR. They can charge a fee but damn right they have to provide it within a legally binding time period. Perhaps if every single current and past GA season ticket holder did this and brought their admin to a complete grinding halt they might get the message. I'm all for screwing over arrogant TOCs and costing them as much as possible whenever possible.

The alternative is that GA prosecute those people who have defrauded them in court, for a much smaller amount - perhaps £100 or less, instead of several hundred quid as we've been seeing in the settlements. This would leave them with - if convicted - a criminal record, and a sentence on top of that.

I think there is a good reason why the posters here have decided to settle out of court and it is probably for the best, for both parties.
Fine... If GA want to play that game there are ways to cost them serious money or more ...
 
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MikeWh

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It's called an SAR. They can charge a fee
I don't think they can now. This was one of the changes bought about with GDPR. You have the right to be told what is held about you and no fee can be made. It's why the credit reference agencies no longer charge a nominal fee for a one-off credit report.
 
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