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Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

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kristiang85

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This is a fairly decent summary of the vaccine passport debate that might be well placed here: https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1367527617377746945

1. INTRO - WHAT ARE THEY?
A ‘vaccine certificate’ or ‘passport’ is, in the simplest form, a means of proving that a person has been vaccinated. This can be paper or digital.
In one sense, vaccine certificates have been around for decades - e.g. the 1969 International Health Regulations made extensive provision for certificates of Yellow Fever vaccination for international travel https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/96616/9241580070.pdf;jsessionid=845A8FBE4DE0A49FF315386F9602E5F4?sequence=1
It seems inevitable that COVID-19 vaccination certificates will become the norm - at least in the short to medium term - for international travel. The EU and World Health Organisation are working on standardised versions BUT the WHO don’t yet recommend the use of them https://who.int/news-room/articles-detail/interim-position-paper-considerations-regarding-proof-of-covid-19-vaccination-for-international-travellers…
So vaccination certificates themselves are not controversial or new - what is controversial and new is the proposed use certificates to determine whether an individual can participate in workplace and social activities.
e.g. saying that frontline care home workers need to prove vaccination Or a supermarket worker a visitor to a cinema the user of a deckchair on a beach
(That last image is from Tel Aviv - I don’t know if the chairs are real or not but Israel is one of the first countries in the world to implement a “Green passport”, i.e. requiring a digital vaccine certificate for certain daily activities)
One other point about definitions: it is not obvious what a vaccination certificate would demonstrate. As the Royal Society point out, a COVID passport could show both (1) protection from COVID and (2) that the person cannot transmit COVID. https://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-vaccine-passports.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=A3319C914245F73795AB163AD15E9021
And if you are showing those two things, and a justification is to prevent passing on the virus, why not include people who have had the disease and have antibodies? And if so, what kind of test do you use?
And for how long? The ‘Green Passport’ in Israel lasts for 6 months, what happens after that? You would presumably need a booster, but what if you can’t get one in time?
And immunity to what? As we know, COVID constantly mutates and vaccines may not be as effective against a more dangerous strain. Or one vaccine might but the other not. As you might imagine, this can lead to difficult issues over how and what to certify.
This point is made well by the @AdaLovelaceInst https://adalovelaceinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/COVID-19-vaccine-passports-rapid-expert-deliberation.pdf… “the duration of validity of the passport will remain dynamic in response to developing scientific understanding rather than a fixed date of issue”.

2. THE POSITIVES
When thinking of the positives, we immediately hit one of the problems with identifying obvious good or bad things about vaccine certificates - it really depends on how you use them.
So, for example, requiring care home workers to prove they have been vaccinated could have a clear but quite narrow benefit (if it prevents transmission to vulnerable residents). I have discussed the employment/discrimination law implications of that here https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1364888482519404544
But a more extensive version of the policy, e.g. requiring vaccine certificates for shopping in a supermarket would have quite different benefits - not just protecting e.g. vulnerable people in the supermarket but also incentivising people generally to have the vaccine. Incentivising people to have the vaccine is clearly a public good as the more people who have it, the more likely we will get to herd immunity and reduce the proliferation of mutated versions of the virus which could put us back to square one. Another potential positive is the alternative - regular lockdowns caused by rampant COVID - is worse. Essentially you sacrifice some personal liberty (privacy) for other liberties such as participating in ‘normal’ social life. See Lord Sumption: https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1367455833253101573

3. THE NEGATIVES
There are, I think, six key arguments against vaccine certificates being used widely to restrict access to social activity.
First, VCs amount to coercing people to vaccinate. I am not convinced by the argument this is akin to a forced medical procedure but as @Nuffbioethics say pressure can take various forms and lead to stigmatisation. Is this the kind of society we want? https://nuffieldbioethics.org/publications/covid-19-antibody-testing-and-immunity-certification/read-the-briefing
Second, there isn’t enough evidence that vaccination prevents onwards transmission of COVID which means that the justification of getting more people to vaccinate to reach herd immunity is not yet backed up by evidence.
This is why the @AdaLovelaceInst does not yet support vaccine passports - but would potentially in future if the science changed. This objection is very much contingent as evidence may emerge soon to show vaccines reduce transmissibility.
Third, there is a ‘slippery slope’ argument, well articulated by @libertyHQ who also fought against national ID cards. It is conceivable that once the infrastructure is put in place to ‘prove’ our health credentials, this could lead to other data being added e.g. HIV status.
Fourth, privacy. This is similar to the objection to a contact tracing app which stored data centrally (didn’t ultimately happen in the UK). Public authorities are not always good at keeping our data private and not sharing it amongst themselves. Can we trust them with this?
Fifth, exacerbating existing social inequalities. E.g. if black and minority ethnic communities are already not taking up the vaccine in high numbers, then restricting access to society to people who are already disproportionately affected by social inequality is very risky. This raises a legal implication too - under the Equality Act any policy which discriminates against a group who share a protected characteristic like race must be proportionate. This policy risks not being justifiable if it exacerbates racial injustice.
Sixth, vaccine passports may discriminate unfairly against people who cannot take the vaccine for medical/disability reasons, or because they are pregnant, or are too young to be offered it yet. I hope govt would include exemptions as with the face covering rules to address this.

4. CONCLUSIONS
Sorry this thread has been so long - it’s a difficult issue with serious rights implications.
I think the ‘get out of the cycle of lockdowns’ argument is the strongest in favour. It is not obvious, as @AdaLovelaceIns say, that vaccine passports will incentivise people to be vaccinated. They could do the opposite as people conflate opposition to vaccination and VCs. But whether or not you agree with lockdowns, they are the standard policy of most governments and will probably continue to be. We must do everything we reasonably can to avoid an endless cycle of lockdowns - the big question is whether vaccine passports can do that. The risks and dangers outlined above are real but I don’t think any of them clearly discounts the policy entirely.
And whatever the government does, it is obvious that private employers and companies will require vaccine certificates anyway - arguing that it is part of their health and safety duties in law. So either govt bans them completely or regulates them. Has to be one or other. What cannot - must not - happen is the same emergency powers used for the lockdown and hotel quarantine be used for this. There must be a proper parliamentary debate and democratic accountability. Here’s hoping!
 
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duncanp

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I'd fake a vaccine card to go to the pub rather than stomach trawling anyone who wants to come into my workplace on their own terms around the countryside all day to not be allowed to do anything in my own time :lol:

Someone in the comments section of the BBC website made an important point.

"..Who is going to work in these pubs that require a vaccination certificate. A large number of bar staff are younger people who will not have been vaccinated. "

You would end up with the ludicrous situation whereby unvaccinated bar staff are allowed to enter a pub for work purposes, spend 8 hours or so doing a shift, but be unable to come in for a couple of pints on their day off as a paying customer.

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that this is Boris floating the idea in public just to see what the reaction will be. If the idea gets shot down in flames, which seems to be happening, then it won't be adopted.
 

Gadget88

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Just wondering what people think? Will we be a free society free of masks social distancing and no covid passports or will we wearing masks limiting numbers in stadiums by 2022? I don’t feel very positive so maybe somebody else can be more positive that’s we don’t head down compulsory vaccination yearly? Are we going to be taking COVID tests to keep the numbers up or will the media stop reporting it like flu? Any thoughts?
 

bspahh

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This is a fairly decent summary of the vaccine passport debate that might be well placed here: https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1367527617377746945
There is an unrolled version here:
Some thoughts on the legal and ethical implications of ‘vaccine passports’ (thread)
Vaccine passports are controversial and the govt is reviewing the possibility of their use.[...]
 

Baxenden Bank

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Someone in the comments section of the BBC website made an important point.

"..Who is going to work in these pubs that require a vaccination certificate. A large number of bar staff are younger people who will not have been vaccinated. "

You would end up with the ludicrous situation whereby unvaccinated bar staff are allowed to enter a pub for work purposes, spend 8 hours or so doing a shift, but be unable to come in for a couple of pints on their day off as a paying customer.

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that this is Boris floating the idea in public just to see what the reaction will be. If the idea gets shot down in flames, which seems to be happening, then it won't be adopted.
Rather, Boris is just blowing in the wind without an opinion of his own. Alternatively he has an opinion but he is not prepared to expose it to public scrutiny because, whatever it may be, someone will disagree with it. Time for some leadership. Time to steer the debate rather than sit on the fence (or hide behind the settee). Easier to just go see what happens by default.

I note in the Sky news report here that;
Asked about vaccine certificates for pubs, he said: "I think that's the kind of thing that may be up to individual publicans. It may be up to the landlord."
has been reported as;
The biggest bombshell was that pub landlords may be given the power to bar anyone without a Covid jab in future.

There is a large difference between a publican deciding to require a vaccination certificate (under their general powers to refuse entry/service to anyone without having to give a reason) and being given a specific power to ban people. Some leap in the mind of the journalist there.

Just wondering what people think? Will we be a free society free of masks social distancing and no covid passports or will we wearing masks limiting numbers in stadiums by 2022? I don’t feel very positive so maybe somebody else can be more positive that’s we don’t head down compulsory vaccination yearly? Are we going to be taking COVID tests to keep the numbers up or will the media stop reporting it like flu? Any thoughts?
Sorry, can't help you out, I'm in much the same mind. I feel/worry that many of the current restrictions are set to become permanent features in the new normal. There may be ebbs and flows according to season and Covid variety on offer in Tesco this month, but the control mentality has been unleashed and there are insufficient people aware of/concerned about the risks to our free society and also in a position to do much about it. A few Tory backbenchers like to wave their 'man piece' around but they won't bring down their own government.
 
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Cdd89

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Indeed it would arguably need a specific power/condition (making vaccination status a protected characteristic, or non vaccination being credibly linked to a disability or medical condition) in order for it to be out of a business owner’s control.
 

Gadget88

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Rather, Boris is just blowing in the wind without an opinion of his own. Alternatively he has an opinion but he is not prepared to expose it to public scrutiny because, whatever it may be, someone will disagree with it. Time for some leadership. Time to steer the debate rather than sit on the fence (or hide behind the settee). Easier to just go see what happens by default.

I note in the Sky news report here that;

has been reported as;


There is a large difference between a publican deciding to require a vaccination certificate (under their general powers to refuse entry/service to anyone without having to give a reason) and being given a specific power to ban people. Some leap in the mind of the journalist there.


Sorry, can't help you out, I'm in much the same mind. I feel/worry that many of the current restrictions are set to become permanent features in the new normal. There may be ebbs and flows according to season and Covid variety on offer in Tesco this month, but the control mentality has been unleashed and there are insufficient people aware of/concerned about the risks to our free society and also in a position to do much about it. A few Tory backbenchers like to wave their 'man piece' around but they won't bring down their own government.
That’s the issue they won’t bring the government down. We may be heading to some sort of sci-fi movie controlled state. But people put up with this?
 

NorthOxonian

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Just wondering what people think? Will we be a free society free of masks social distancing and no covid passports or will we wearing masks limiting numbers in stadiums by 2022? I don’t feel very positive so maybe somebody else can be more positive that’s we don’t head down compulsory vaccination yearly? Are we going to be taking COVID tests to keep the numbers up or will the media stop reporting it like flu? Any thoughts?
It's impossible to tell. I would hope we get out of this situation by the summer - certainly the vaccines seem good enough to enable that. I think vaccine passports will become a part of international travel in the medium term, but no more than that (they might be used briefly by some pubs who want to seem conscientious).

I don't know whether masks and social distancing go on June 21st (my gut says they'll go in some settings but not others, obviously I'd hope for more). I can't see them being around long term, no matter what ivory tower types like Mary Ramsay say most people don't want to live in some faceless distanced dystopia. There'll probably be a few virtue signallers who wear them for many years to come, but I expect most of society will see those people as a bit weird once we've got through the virus, so social pressures might bring an end to voluntary masks/distancing. We aren't quite the US where masks have become a religion and where I think a significant minority will wear them forever more.

Testing will be around for some time but once case rates drop to near zero, the cost implications and issues around false positives will lead it to gradually be quietly dropped. Again, hard to know an exact time scale but I think it'll be months rather than years.
 

brad465

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The problems with vaccine passports don't just include civil liberty issues, but they're no guarantee of avoiding infection: if every vaccine was 100% effective at preventing some form of illness and reducing transmission then there maybe a case, but this isn't the case.
 

Gadget88

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It's impossible to tell. I would hope we get out of this situation by the summer - certainly the vaccines seem good enough to enable that. I think vaccine passports will become a part of international travel in the medium term, but no more than that (they might be used briefly by some pubs who want to seem conscientious).

I don't know whether masks and social distancing go on June 21st (my gut says they'll go in some settings but not others, obviously I'd hope for more). I can't see them being around long term, no matter what ivory tower types like Mary Ramsay say most people don't want to live in some faceless distanced dystopia. There'll probably be a few virtue signallers who wear them for many years to come, but I expect most of society will see those people as a bit weird once we've got through the virus, so social pressures might bring an end to voluntary masks/distancing. We aren't quite the US where masks have become a religion and where I think a significant minority will wear them forever more.

Testing will be around for some time but once case rates drop to near zero, the cost implications and issues around false positives will lead it to gradually be quietly dropped. Again, hard to know an exact time scale but I think it'll be months rather than years.
Cool what makes you think masks and passports won’t be long term? I like your optimism but don’t think see us being like Florida
 

MikeWM

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This is a fairly decent summary of the vaccine passport debate that might be well placed here: https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1367527617377746945

I have *some* time for Adam Wagner - his dissection of the ever-changing regulations is generally very useful - but I find it hard to take anyone seriously that appears to think that the only options available to us are rolling lockdowns forever, or a 'health papers please' society. In particular, any human rights lawyer that doesn't *instantly and totally* reject a 'health papers please' society doesn't really seem worthy of that description.

For what it is worth, my prediction is that they'll push this as far as they can.

- Festivals, concerts, conferences, sporting events appears inevitable.
- Theatres probably.
- Cinemas, pubs, restaurants - they'll probably try, how far they get depends on how much pushback occurs.
- Public transport, supermarkets, etc. - probably not at this point.

At that point the concept is sufficiently accepted by a section of society, understood and available. Next pandemic or other major event, it will all be there waiting to be extended to everywhere they didn't quite manage this time around.

As I've said before, if anyone thinks this will remain as proof of one specific vaccination against one specific disease, and won't quickly mutate into a Chinese-style social credit system, then you're far more optimistic than me.

Maybe many people are happy both with being vaccinated for this disease, *and* being required to show proof of that on demand to all sorts of people multiple times every day. But you need to ask yourself when there is not just one but 50, or 100, requirements for you to comply with in order for your phone to 'allow' you to do things, will you be equally happy complying with all 100 of those requirements?
 

NorthOxonian

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Cool what makes you think masks and passports won’t be long term? I like your optimism but don’t think see us being like Florida
Because ultimately the vast, vast majority of people want to return to normal. By which I mean proper normal. Being unable to see people's faces and hear them properly, or present papers wherever we go - that's not normal. Perhaps I'm wrong and this ends up like rationing after the Second World War (hanging around for years more than necessary), but I do think there'll be more pressure against this sort of thing than we think, once infection/hospitalisation/death numbers become utterly risible (as they will in a matter of months).

I agree we're not like Florida, but it's not as if the only two options are permanent restrictions on everything or a complete free for all right now.
 

LAX54

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It's impossible to tell. I would hope we get out of this situation by the summer - certainly the vaccines seem good enough to enable that. I think vaccine passports will become a part of international travel in the medium term, but no more than that (they might be used briefly by some pubs who want to seem conscientious).

I don't know whether masks and social distancing go on June 21st (my gut says they'll go in some settings but not others, obviously I'd hope for more). I can't see them being around long term, no matter what ivory tower types like Mary Ramsay say most people don't want to live in some faceless distanced dystopia. There'll probably be a few virtue signallers who wear them for many years to come, but I expect most of society will see those people as a bit weird once we've got through the virus, so social pressures might bring an end to voluntary masks/distancing. We aren't quite the US where masks have become a religion and where I think a significant minority will wear them forever more.

Testing will be around for some time but once case rates drop to near zero, the cost implications and issues around false positives will lead it to gradually be quietly dropped. Again, hard to know an exact time scale but I think it'll be months rather than years.
It's been stated by the Powers to be, that the elderly and those at risk, are (obviously) those at high risk, 99.9% of the rest of the poulation will be / would be ill with flu like symptoms, so surely of we kept the elderly / at risk 'jabbed up' then the rest of the poulation can get on with life as normal ?
 

HSTEd

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Indeed it would arguably need a specific power/condition (making vaccination status a protected characteristic, or non vaccination being credibly linked to a disability or medical condition) in order for it to be out of a business owner’s control.
Age is a protected characteristic isn't it?
 

Bantamzen

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I have *some* time for Adam Wagner - his dissection of the ever-changing regulations is generally very useful - but I find it hard to take anyone seriously that appears to think that the only options available to us are rolling lockdowns forever, or a 'health papers please' society. In particular, any human rights lawyer that doesn't *instantly and totally* reject a 'health papers please' society doesn't really seem worthy of that description.

For what it is worth, my prediction is that they'll push this as far as they can.

- Festivals, concerts, conferences, sporting events appears inevitable.
- Theatres probably.
- Cinemas, pubs, restaurants - they'll probably try, how far they get depends on how much pushback occurs.
- Public transport, supermarkets, etc. - probably not at this point.

At that point the concept is sufficiently accepted by a section of society, understood and available. Next pandemic or other major event, it will all be there waiting to be extended to everywhere they didn't quite manage this time around.

As I've said before, if anyone thinks this will remain as proof of one specific vaccination against one specific disease, and won't quickly mutate into a Chinese-style social credit system, then you're far more optimistic than me.

Maybe many people are happy both with being vaccinated for this disease, *and* being required to show proof of that on demand to all sorts of people multiple times every day. But you need to ask yourself when there is not just one but 50, or 100, requirements for you to comply with in order for your phone to 'allow' you to do things, will you be equally happy complying with all 100 of those requirements?
I don't agree with your assessment that domestic passports are inevitable for many activities. For a start for much of 2021 a large proportion of the population will not have proof of vaccination because, well they won't be fully vaccinated. It could be late into the year before all the adult population will have the opportunity for dual-dose vaccines. That means that any legal mandate will likely be challenged, and any venue requirements will see businesses / events will be severely limiting their customer bases / revenue, especially things like sports & festivals where a large proportion of their customers will be from the younger end of the spectrum.

Then there is the logistics. Right now as I type there is only one document available to all vaccinated people, that is a small piece of card with your name, batch number / type & date administered. A piece of card with no other checkable details, which could (and probably already has been) copied. As a form of proof it is probably one step above an ink stamp on the back of your hand. Of course details of vaccination are held on NHS records, and can be accessed via the website or mobile app. But even then, a simple screenshot (and for the technically minded a spoof app) could fool a layperson trying to check the details. As yet the NHS Covid app shows no sign of carrying vaccine data, although i don't know if the code yet carries this possibility. But in short, there is no available, viable scheme yet live that could support a standardised vaccine passport system. Now given that we are a year into this situation, this is slightly surprising. After all the Covid app has been live for some time, as has the development & distribution of the vaccine. So its not like there has not been time to at least develop a platform, even if it might never be used.

So with a few weeks to go before some pubs and restaurants start to partly reopen, time is running out. Because I honestly cannot see the public accepting being able to go to the pub in April unvaccinated, only to be told later in the year that they can no longer do so.
 

duncanp

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So with a few weeks to go before some pubs and restaurants start to partly reopen, time is running out. Because I honestly cannot see the public accepting being able to go to the pub in April unvaccinated, only to be told later in the year that they can no longer do so.

Yes, this is a point that bumbling Boris seems to have overlooked.

If it is "safe" for people to go to a beer garden in April without a vaccine, how come it is not "safe" for people without a vaccine to go to the pub indoors after 17th May.

For one thing, at current rates of vaccination around 70% of adults will have had a first jab by 17th May, which will give a large degree of immunity. Also when pubs reopen indoors there will still be measures such as social distancing, track & trace, hand sanitiser etc, which will help to reduce the risk of infection, and can be kept in place until 21st June, by which time over 90% of adults will have had a first jab.

Looking at all the negative reaction this morning, I don't think there is much chance of this proposal (and it is just that, a proposal) seeing the light of day.
 

Skimpot flyer

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That’s the issue they won’t bring the government down. We may be heading to some sort of sci-fi movie controlled state. But people put up with this?
When I posted last year about what Dr Vernon Coleman predicted was in store, people called me a ‘tin foil hat wearer’. Not looking so far-fetched now, is it ?
 

Ediswan

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Then there is the logistics. Right now as I type there is only one document available to all vaccinated people, that is a small piece of card with your name, batch number / type & date administered. A piece of card with no other checkable details, which could (and probably already has been) copied.
Plus, assuming my experience was typical, there was no ID check for the vaccination. Anybody who looks plausibly the right age could have turned up with my letter.
 

Bantamzen

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Plus, assuming my experience was typical, there was no ID check for the vaccination. Anybody who looks plausibly the right age could have turned up with my letter.
My experience was somewhat different, mainly because I wasn't registered with the NHS. So I had to supply my details, then verify my ID by scanning my passport into the NHS app & then it scanned my face to link up my ID (all done within a couple of hours of sending the registration, very impressive!). However as you say once at the centre, the appointment number & name / address / DOB was all that was needed to wave me through for the jab. So I'd say the little cardboard reminder wouldn't stand up as proof as much, in fact I know it wouldn't because in a former role I was trained in checking ID! If someone rocked up with just that, I'd be saying nope to that!
 

Reliablebeam

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So far my public sector employer don't seem to be keen on recording vaccination status and are very lukewarm about testing (although some of the private tenants on our site are a bit hotter on this)

Apparently my site will be moving to what they call 'level 2' operation from June (we are currently at 3). There doesn't seem to be any firm guidance on what this means - based on the experience last year I think there will be pressure from BEIS (core civil service) level to get more of us back in work to 'set an example' to the private sector in London. The potential flashpoint here is our exec board have indicated a lot of covid controls may stay in place at level 2 - I can foresee a bit of kerfuffle between those that want to get back to normal and the desire to appease the neurotic and get them back on site... I can see a lot of accelerated retirements amongst our technical staff grades if some of this does continue.
 

Harold Hill

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He's not 'Boris', he's Prime Minister Johnson, the authoritarian premier responsible for the massive damage to the economy and to the health of the nation
 

kez19

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When I posted last year about what Dr Vernon Coleman predicted was in store, people called me a ‘tin foil hat wearer’. Not looking so far-fetched now, is it ?


I would have said it differently, open minded and looking at it in a different perspective but you are right though autopilot label "tin foil hat" "conspiracy theory nut" etc.
 

brad465

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The latest press coverage and words from the PM on vaccine passports I think is starting to get more people waking up to what might be going on here; one particular place is the BBC comments' section of yesterday and today on separate articles, despite past articles having users supporting the idea of such things for healthcare settings and travel abroad, suggesting hospitality is a step too far. Whether enough of the population wakes up and resists change though remains to be seen.
 

kez19

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The latest press coverage and words from the PM on vaccine passports I think is starting to get more people waking up to what might be going on here; one particular place is the BBC comments' section of yesterday and today on separate articles, despite past articles having users supporting the idea of such things for healthcare settings and travel abroad, suggesting hospitality is a step too far. Whether enough of the population wakes up and resists change though remains to be seen.


Yet its took them a year to realise? I admit I didn't see anything from day 1 but the mucking around after Lockdown 1 was enough for me to bail out and realise something wasn't right (to repeat the cycle)
 

joncombe

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The latest press coverage and words from the PM on vaccine passports I think is starting to get more people waking up to what might be going on here; one particular place is the BBC comments' section of yesterday and today on separate articles, despite past articles having users supporting the idea of such things for healthcare settings and travel abroad, suggesting hospitality is a step too far. Whether enough of the population wakes up and resists change though remains to be seen.
Well it looks like Boris is as usual doing a U-turn. Today the suggestion for pubs is it will be up to publicans to decide policy for their pub. I think this means it is certain that vaccine passports will be introduced. You can't make a publican take a decision on whether to accept something that doesn't exist.

I can't imagine many pubs will want to but I think I can see where this will go. Local authorities will then make it a condition of the publicans license that they check for vaccine passports. Then it will be rolled out to pretty much every public place (including shops).

So if you don't want to take the vaccine you're essentially forced into the life of a hermit.
 

DustyBin

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Well it looks like Boris is as usual doing a U-turn. Today the suggestion for pubs is it will be up to publicans to decide policy for their pub. I think this means it is certain that vaccine passports will be introduced. You can't make a publican take a decision on whether to accept something that doesn't exist.

I can't imagine many pubs will want to but I think I can see where this will go. Local authorities will then make it a condition of the publicans license that they check for vaccine passports. Then it will be rolled out to pretty much every public place (including shops).

So if you don't want to take the vaccine you're essentially forced into the life of a hermit.

This is my take on the situation too. One thing that is becoming increasingly apparent is that we aren’t returning to normal on the 21st of June. I’m livid about it all to be honest!
 

brad465

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Not that we needed proof of this, but one of many examples here that politicians change their opinions when it supposedly suits them best:


Boris Johnson, 2004 “If I am ever asked to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong then I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it in the presence of whatever emanation of the state has demanded that I produce it”

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Ediswan

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I would like to see some numbers. Vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing transmission. Demanding proof of vaccination will not eliminate the risk. By all accounts, the vast majority of the population will eventually be vaccincated. Unvaccinated people will be a minority. Just how much more risky would a pub be if open to all ?

Also, anybody advocating demanding proof of vaccination is also demanding that those who are unable to provide that proof will be refused entry. Are they really prepared to see those who cannot be vaccinted being denied access ? (The moral maze of those who choose not to be vaccinated is already being discussed elsewhere.)
 

DustyBin

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Apparently if you don’t support vaccine passports you’re an anti-vaxxer. Are these people thick? I’ve no problem with being vaccinated, I have a BIG problem with having to prove it in order to participate in society. They’re two completely separate issues. This has really pushed my buttons, in case you can’t tell!
 
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