Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[nlogax]

There was definitely at least one fast London - Surbiton 455 working, although I can't imagine they were exactly up to the job.

They were fun services from a passenger perspective. Elderly 455s at top whack..a lot easier when sat down.

 

[DorkingMain]

There was definitely at least one fast London - Surbiton 455 working, although I can't imagine they were exactly up to the job.

Line speed as far as Surbiton is 75mph on the fast anyway. They don't struggle too much to hit 70.

 

[Val3ntine]

Line speed as far as Surbiton is 75mph on the fast anyway. They don't struggle too much to hit 70.

Goes up to 80 around New Malden and then 90 after surbiton/hampton court junction. But yes you’re right the journey to Surbiton doing 70-75 won’t really affect much plus you’d be bringing the speed down from New Malden/Berrylands anyway due to restrictive signalling ahead.

 

[spark001uk]

Another delivery booked for tomorrow, 6X24 Derby LL - Eastleigh.

Realtime Trains - 6X24 0756 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[444045]

Does anyone know which 701 is coming south with 66752 on 6X24, currently 145 late from Derby ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[spark001uk]

66752 with 701023 today, approx 150 late currently.

 

[444045]

66752 with 701023 today, approx 150 late currently.

Thank you @spark001uk for your help and swift reply.

 

[spark001uk]

Thank you @spark001uk for your help and swift reply.

No prob, I was actually typing it before you posted.!

 

[Snow1964]

I see First Rail are tendering for "Inspection and audit activities relating to the build and acceptance of the Class 701".

The contract commences on 3rd May 2021 and runs for 10 months until 28th February 2022. This appears to indicate a very ambitious introduction schedule.

Acceptance and Introduction into service are not same thing.

Acceptance is delivery, checking, the required mileage (and a trip to somewhere like Brockenhurst or Poole, following some shorter runs can easily get this done). Once accepted the train builder can be paid and lease rentals start.

Introduction into service is going to depend on training of drivers etc. Presumably if Covid restrictions end in few months, this can ramp up. But I could easily see the December 2022 timetable change as more realistic for full service and older units finally gone.

I’m not upto speed on how many are now built, and how many are delivered, or build rate (which varies as the works transition the production from Overground to Anglia, to SWR, to West Midlands, to C2C units). Of course the SWR Franchise agreement (before revision) has all 750 coaches in service by now. Covid (as a reason) has only delayed production a maximum of 12 months (probably nearer 6 months)

Maybe someone can update on numbers built, but must be something like two thirds the 750 vehicles by now. Although actual delivery will be much lower.

 

[Goldfish62]

Acceptance and Introduction into service are not same thing.

Acceptance is delivery, checking, the required mileage (and a trip to somewhere like Brockenhurst or Poole, following some shorter runs can easily get this done). Once accepted the train builder can be paid and lease rentals start.

Introduction into service is going to depend on training of drivers etc. Presumably if Covid restrictions end in few months, this can ramp up. But I could easily see the December 2022 timetable change as more realistic for full service and older units finally gone.

I’m not upto speed on how many are now built, and how many are delivered, or build rate (which varies as the works transition the production from Overground to Anglia, to SWR, to West Midlands, to C2C units). Of course the SWR Franchise agreement (before revision) has all 750 coaches in service by now. Covid (as a reason) has only delayed production a maximum of 12 months (probably nearer 6 months)

Maybe someone can update on numbers built, but must be something like two thirds the 750 vehicles by now. Although actual delivery will be much lower.

Yes, but the TOC is not going to want to accept the units then have them sitting around for ever. As you say they'll have to pay for them and then there's storage, while still retaining the fleets being displaced. The impetuous has to be to get them into service as quickly as possible after acceptance.

I imagine in the protracted negotiations on the new contract DfT will be trying to screw down SWR on this as ultimately it'll be the Treasury paying for all this.

 

[TEW]

Training has still not started. I know the original units delivered did not have the redesigned cab layout so were not able to be used for training. There were some other outstanding issues ASLEF had with the units too and I haven't heard yet that they have been resolved.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, but the TOC is not going to want to accept the units then have them sitting around for ever. As you say they'll have to pay for them and then there's storage, while still retaining the fleets being displaced. The impetuous has to be to get them into service as quickly as possible after acceptance.

I imagine in the protracted negotiations on the new contract DfT will be trying to screw down SWR on this as ultimately it'll be the Treasury paying for all this.

Totally agree, there are going to be different objectives

The train builder will want to be paid as early as possible
The leaseCo will want to charge user as soon as feasible
The TOC won’t want to pay for new and old units in parallel

The train builder will have an agreed delivery schedule, their software issues, and Covid will have varied this. It can only have slipped, not advanced, but can TOC delay it months if their drivers aren’t ready without paying for the trains.

SouthEastern might have contractual dates for 707s, so have to leave regardless of introduction of 701s

The leaseCo (of other stock 455s, 458s) might have specified minimum extension or notice periods. The TOC has its hands tied here as can’t leave itself with no stock, but would struggle to accommodate it all if there was big overlap.

But the commercial contracts are not in public domain, so can’t tell who is in the strongest position contractually re determining introducion timescales.

 

[Bigfoot]

They are delivering trains that were built after a list of build problems were pointed out to bombardier with the very same problems on that list.

 

[DorkingMain]

Totally agree, there are going to be different objectives

The train builder will want to be paid as early as possible
The leaseCo will want to charge user as soon as feasible
The TOC won’t want to pay for new and old units in parallel

The train builder will have an agreed delivery schedule, their software issues, and Covid will have varied this. It can only have slipped, not advanced, but can TOC delay it months if their drivers aren’t ready without paying for the trains.

SouthEastern might have contractual dates for 707s, so have to leave regardless of introduction of 701s

The leaseCo (of other stock 455s, 458s) might have specified minimum extension or notice periods. The TOC has its hands tied here as can’t leave itself with no stock, but would struggle to accommodate it all if there was big overlap.

But the commercial contracts are not in public domain, so can’t tell who is in the strongest position contractually re determining introducion timescales.

The 707s are the only time sensitive members of the metro fleet, with their future being committed to Southeastern. The 455 / 456 / 458 is likely to end up on a scrapheap at the end of its term with SWR, so I suspect the leasing company is quite happy for them to continue paying for them.

They are delivering trains that were built after a list of build problems were pointed out to bombardier with the very same problems on that list.

Some of the stories I've heard about the build quality are absolutely shocking.

 

[Energy]

Some of the stories I've heard about the build quality are absolutely shocking.

Litchurch Lane isn't famed for its quality...

 

[RealTrains07]

Litchurch Lane isn't famed for its quality...

And yet they have managed to secure orders from 6 TOCs. 701s being the latest in a long line of poor quality trains which at this rate may not last 30 years?

 

[samuelmorris]

The build quality point is largely irrelevant. Almost regardless of manufacturer, most new fleets tend to be delivered with at least some glaring defects. I'm still not really sure I understand why that is, but it must be procedural. Everything from CAF as well as almost all of the AT300s have had build quality issues, not just the entire Aventra platform. The new Stadler units have also had very poor reliability, which basically only leaves Siemens. Even in there case, the early Desiro City units were far from trouble free. You can only really properly assess the quality of new fleets after the initial reliability ramp up has completed. For some fleets that's 2-3 years, others 5-10 years.

 

[Energy]

The build quality point is largely irrelevant. Almost regardless of manufacturer, most new fleets tend to be delivered with at least some glaring defects. I'm still not really sure I understand why that is, but it must be procedural. Everything from CAF as well as almost all of the AT300s have had build quality issues, not just the entire Aventra platform. The new Stadler units have also had very poor reliability, which basically only leaves Siemens. Even in there case, the early Desiro City units were far from trouble free. You can only really properly assess the quality of new fleets after the initial reliability ramp up has completed. For some fleets that's 2-3 years, others 5-10 years.

Hitachi have been pretty good and very reliable. The 802s do have some loose panels but they were built in Italy by Hitachi Rail Italy (previously AnsaldoBreda) who have been known for poor reliability.

The Stadlers have been pretty good, like most stock they had teething problems when introduced but have settled down to be reliable.

To be fair the Desiro Cities have been in service longer than other new EMUs...

 

[samuelmorris]

Hitachi have been pretty good and very reliable. The 802s do have some loose panels but they were built in Italy by Hitachi Rail Italy (previously AnsaldoBreda) who have been known for poor reliability.

The Stadlers have been pretty good, like most stock they had teething problems when introduced but have settled down to be reliable.

To be fair the Desiro Cities have been in service longer than other new EMUs...

I don't want to drag the thread off-topic but I was under the impression the UK-built 800/801s actually had a worse rep than the units from Italy. As for the Desiro City, even back in 2018 I'm pretty sure the 707s were posting scores well in excess of what any of those other fleets have achieved.

 

[Goldfish62]

As for the Desiro City, even back in 2018 I'm pretty sure the 707s were posting scores well in excess of what any of those other fleets have achieved.

That's correct.

 

[southern442]

Perhaps the 707s were a little lucky as they were quite similar to the 700s so many of the teething problems that showed up on the 700s were perhaps also anticipated on the 707 rollout so they could be dealt with quicker? Then again that was totally not the case for the 377/5s.

As for the 701's, there will be quite a few other Aventra units in service by the time these are introduced so perhaps it will be a similar story? I'm not too sure how the 720s are doing, but I haven't heard anything too terrible yet.

 

[samuelmorris]

Time will tell. By the time the 707s had been introduced and were performing well, it had only been 2 years since the 700s were introduced. By the time the 701s have been introduced en masse, it will have been two years since the 710s were introduced. Let's see how they compare. I suspect not favourably, but I'm open to being proven wrong!

 

[DorkingMain]

Most of the issues on the 700 / 707 were down to software rather than issues with the actual build quality.

 

[Domh245]

Time will tell. By the time the 707s had been introduced and were performing well, it had only been 2 years since the 700s were introduced. By the time the 701s have been introduced en masse, it will have been two years since the 710s were introduced. Let's see how they compare. I suspect not favourably, but I'm open to being proven wrong!

I think we should see similar improvements in the 701s as was seen 707 v 700. In both cases the fleet is simpler being DC only, and both should benefit from the "Wimbledon touch". Perhaps not as significant a gain as was seen 707 to 700, but a gain nonetheless

Most of the issues on the 700 / 707 were down to software rather than issues with the actual build quality.

Software has been the most significant issue on Aventras so far as well

 

[Bessie]

I assume the news that the 458’s are now to be used elsewhere on SWR metals means someone will finally get their finger out and get the 701’s into service before the end of 2021.

 

[Goldfish62]

I assume the news that the 458’s are now to be used elsewhere on SWR metals means someone will finally get their finger out and get the 701’s into service before the end of 2021.

Quite, given that 701 introduction will be needed before the 458s can be released for removal of the 5th coach, regearing and refurbishing.

I've noticed on RTT from May that the timetable on the Reading line is being heavily cut on weekdays, going from 4tph for much of the day to 2tph throughout.

Assuming that's permanent and peak extras are removed elsewhere it does look like SWR is going to end up with a surplus of 701s.

 

[southern442]

Quite, given that 701 introduction will be needed before the 458s can be released for removal of the 5th coach, regearing and refurbishing.

I've noticed on RTT from May that the timetable on the Reading line is being heavily cut on weekdays, going from 4tph for much of the day to 2tph throughout.

Assuming that's permanent and peak extras are removed elsewhere it does look like SWR is going to end up with a surplus of 701s.

As you mentioned on another thread, the 701 introduction has now become something a little more urgent. The reduced timetable frees up 707s, so some of them can go and get sorted without the need for the 701s, but now because of the 458s also being needed, they need to get at least some of them ready soon.

Is there any way to quickly push forward with a small chunk of units, for example, just the 5-car sets, to free things up? Probably quite a naive question but I'm sure everyone involved is quite keen to see a project on SWR that can actually be seen through to completion!

 

[spark001uk]

I've noticed on RTT from May that the timetable on the Reading line is being heavily cut on weekdays, going from 4tph for much of the day to 2tph throughout.

I looked at rtt for the May timetable change a couple of days ago, and it was still completely blank on swr entries (gwr, Southern, and one or two others seemed to be there though), so I wouldn't say with certainty that nothing else could trickle through onto the system in the coming days/weeks?

 

[southern442]

Assuming that's permanent and peak extras are removed elsewhere it does look like SWR is going to end up with a surplus of 701s.

I forgot to mention, but SWR still uses 450s on the Windsors, so perhaps these will cover the remaining 701s for a while.

Was it 4tph to Reading all day previously?

 

[Bald Rick]

I looked at rtt for the May timetable change a couple of days ago, and it was still completely blank on swr entries (gwr, Southern, and one or two others seemed to be there though), so I wouldn't say with certainty that nothing else could trickle through onto the system in the coming days/weeks?

There’s no guarantees in life except for the usual exceptions, but I would be very surprised if the SWR timetable changed in any significant way now. It was all published yesterday - anything that follows will be minor ‘tweaks’ to correct errors.