• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

43 302

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2019
Messages
1,624
Location
London
I thought Mk4 vehicles in the 113xx range were POD, or Pullman Open Disabled; whatever the hell that actually means.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,165
If I understand correctly -
Trailer Open (End), Trailer Open, Trailer Open (Disabled), Service Vehicle (i.e. shop/buffet car), First Open (Disabled), Drivimg Van Trailer.
I think the ‘T’ is Tourist rather than Trailer (as it is in locomotive hauled TSO vehicles).
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
What I can't understand is that these sets will only have 2 standard class carraiges per set. Hardly a capacity upgrade for standard class passengers over a 3 car 175.
One and a half first class carriages seems overkill compared to just two standard.
Not sure where you got that idea from, but there isn't going to be 1½ coaches of first class.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
I believe so...

...If what I'm told is correct they are acquiring vehicles to lengthen the three existing sets as well, so will be formed TOE-TO-TOD-SV-FOD-DVT.

Presumably that means that DB Cargo will be providing some more 67s on top of the 6 already modified.
If that's true, that's going to be very complicated on the Marches unless they get SDO fitted.

See posts #691 and #692.
Indeed, I got mixed up in my reply. Duly edited now.
 

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
3,905
What I can't understand is that these sets will only have 2 standard class carraiges per set. Hardly a capacity upgrade for standard class passengers over a 3 car 175.
One and a half first class carriages seems overkill compared to just two standard.

Its 2 and a half coaches standard and 1 coach first. Mk4 service vehicles in the Mallard refurb were converted to standard accommodation (having originally been built at first - it was at this time the GNER rakes were standardised and the Pullman sets dispensed with, prior to that the trains had either 2.5 first or 3.5 first in Pullman sets, this made everything the same as 3 first).
 

Caaardiff

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2019
Messages
852
How do formations work? Could they not just pickup 3-4 standard class vehicles instead of having a buffet car and a whole First Class carriage? Surely there's enough spare carriages going to have a more fitting setup.
 

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
3,905
How do formations work? Could they not just pickup 3-4 standard class vehicles instead of having a buffet car and a whole First Class carriage? Surely there's enough spare carriages going to have a more fitting setup.

You need the buffet car to cook meals and the whole point of the train is it has premium accommodation so you need the first class vehicle.
 

Caaardiff

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2019
Messages
852
Does South Wales to Manchester need a premium service? The only reason the Cardiff - Holyhead service has them is because the Welsh Government subsidise it.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,538
Does South Wales to Manchester need a premium service? The only reason the Cardiff - Holyhead service has them is because the Welsh Government subsidise it.
No, neither route requires a premium service. It is nothing more than a vanity project and frittering away Welsh taxpayers money.
 

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
3,905
No, neither route requires a premium service. It is nothing more than a vanity project and frittering away Welsh taxpayers money.

There is probably a market for first class accommodation between Cardiff and Manchester as for all the other bells and whistles as you say it’s a political project.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,098
Location
Somewhere, not in London
How do formations work? Could they not just pickup 3-4 standard class vehicles instead of having a buffet car and a whole First Class carriage? Surely there's enough spare carriages going to have a more fitting setup.
Not that simple as you'd need SDO, and to fit the coaches for AAR, fit PIS and all the other mods that needed doing.
 

nedchester

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2008
Messages
2,093
No, neither route requires a premium service. It is nothing more than a vanity project and frittering away Welsh taxpayers money.
Or maybe they realise that South Wales to Manchester is one of their more lucrative routes?
 

47827

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
591
Location
Middleport
I wonder what routes they would be used on then ? As only Holyhead & a small part of Crewe drivers sign them in the north, it would mean probably Llandudno junction drivers & guards would be needed or more at Crewe.

If it's the GC sets they look nice after the refurbished & TFW may have got a good deal to use them after the lease company spent all that money on them.

Correct. You would probably need to increase the numbers of drivers (and guards) trained at the bigger existing depots as well as considering new depots to train staff. If (as suggested in the past) it was all of the Holyhead to Cardiff services plus even an odd balancing service here and there (and perhaps reliefs/specials on sporting/summer type dates), there would also be also be a case of looking at all/most of the depots en route having at least some trained staff or else the farce potential when depots have to cross cover is too high if there were say 4 or 5 weekday diagrams plus an odd set at weekends (even if you could try and avoid training any drivers at some depots). I doubt Chester, Cardiff or Crewe will ever see every driver trained on them but new links can be created or expanded if the need existed. It's a bit easier to train guards up although any with zero previous experience of loco hauled stock may not be as comfortable with the idea naturally. You could probably argue all/most that sign the route should eventually receive training.

I guess with DB desperate to replace lost work for 67s and overhauled Mk4s on stream due to the GC Blackpool loss prices were more attractive for a quality product. TFW also do have a reasonable existing competency to transfer and upgrade from mk3/mk2 sets in the past compared with most companies. Would expect the loco requirement to double even if only 8 or 9 were available to use on one day. You would also be justified in sticking a spare loco at Holyhead to act as thunderbird or replacement for sets at the north end and I'd hope there would be one at Crewe too (or use of the WCML thunderbird).
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,714
What I can't understand is that these sets will only have 2 standard class carraiges per set. Hardly a capacity upgrade for standard class passengers over a 3 car 175.
One and a half first class carriages seems overkill compared to just two standard.
The catering car has standard class seating, giving 2.5 std and one first.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,098
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Correct. You would probably need to increase the numbers of drivers (and guards) trained at the bigger existing depots as well as considering new depots to train staff. If (as suggested in the past) it was all of the Holyhead to Cardiff services plus even an odd balancing service here and there (and perhaps reliefs/specials on sporting/summer type dates), there would also be also be a case of looking at all/most of the depots en route having at least some trained staff or else the farce potential when depots have to cross cover is too high if there were say 4 or 5 weekday diagrams plus an odd set at weekends (even if you could try and avoid training any drivers at some depots). I doubt Chester, Cardiff or Crewe will ever see every driver trained on them but new links can be created or expanded if the need existed. It's a bit easier to train guards up although any with zero previous experience of loco hauled stock may not be as comfortable with the idea naturally. You could probably argue all/most that sign the route should eventually receive training.

I guess with DB desperate to replace lost work for 67s and overhauled Mk4s on stream due to the GC Blackpool loss prices were more attractive for a quality product. TFW also do have a reasonable existing competency to transfer and upgrade from mk3/mk2 sets in the past compared with most companies. Would expect the loco requirement to double even if only 8 or 9 were available to use on one day. You would also be justified in sticking a spare loco at Holyhead to act as thunderbird or replacement for sets at the north end and I'd hope there would be one at Crewe too (or use of the WCML thunderbird).
Except the 57/3 can't operate in multiple with the Mk.4C DVT (when converted), or anything for that matter as the 57/3 has no multiple working. So would purely be thunderbird only duties. So the WCML thunderbird is not that suitable, nor does it being a different FoC on a service contract to a different ToC make it practicable either.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
It's worth pointing out that if the Cardiff - Holyhead service was a stand alone route with its own dedicated fleet, a 2 hourly service would require between 5 and 6 sets (depending on stopping pattern and how tough the turn around times are). If TfW are taking on 4 extra sets that would give them a total of 7, which would fit rather nicely.

And that's before we get into the operational and political reasons why if these extra sets take are coming it seems more likely to me they'll go to Holyhead rather than Manchester.
 

47827

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
591
Location
Middleport
Except the 57/3 can't operate in multiple with the Mk.4C DVT (when converted), or anything for that matter as the 57/3 has no multiple working. So would purely be thunderbird only duties. So the WCML thunderbird is not that suitable, nor does it being a different FoC on a service contract to a different ToC make it practicable either.

My comment re the 57 was it's use in rescuing the train if somewhere within an hour of Crewe.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,098
Location
Somewhere, not in London
My comment re the 57 was it's use in rescuing the train if somewhere within an hour of Crewe.
Which will still be subject to the fact that if DRS sent it to rescue the WAG Express, it wouldn't be available for the WC Contract and would land DRS in hot water, so it wouldn't happen.
This isn't BR days, that loco although available is busy waiting for something to do for a different company.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,551
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Which will still be subject to the fact that if DRS sent it to rescue the WAG Express, it wouldn't be available for the WC Contract and would land DRS in hot water, so it wouldn't happen.
This isn't BR days, that loco although available is busy waiting for something to do for a different company.

Actually I'm sure I recall Network Rail has the ability to requisition nearby rolling stock if needed to deal with an emergency/line blockage?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,543
Location
Redcar
Actually I'm sure I recall Network Rail has the ability to requisition nearby rolling stock if needed to deal with an emergency/line blockage?

There is presumably some sort of mechanism as otherwise you wouldn't have videos like the below where a 59 is used to rescue an HST whilst still hauling it's own freight train (so not even waiting for something to happen, it was actively doing something at the time!)


Though perhaps we're starting to wander a little off topic here ;)
 

47827

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
591
Location
Middleport
Actually I'm sure I recall Network Rail has the ability to requisition nearby rolling stock if needed to deal with an emergency/line blockage?

Would be down to the Network Rail. But naturally if there was a spare 67 or indeed a crewed DB loco in the vicinity of a failure they would probably be taken first. It's a credible point to consider if we reach a point where there are several loco hauled trains between North Wales and Cardiff as that would no doubt increase failure risk versus the previous diagrams. Sticking one of the spare 67s at Chester, Crewe or Shrewsbury is also an option but carries a crewing cost if someone has to sit with it.
 

Eccles1983

On Moderation
Joined
4 Sep 2016
Messages
841
A rescue loco couldn't sit at Chester. There is simply no room in the platforms or even parcels, and no Chester crew sign it to keep it in the nearly constantly used yard.

No other depot signs Chester yard, or even the shunts. Same for Abbey Foregate, Salop crew only.

IF and that's a big IF they decide to use more of these, then the most sensible option would be to train a small amount of Chester drivers on them. It would then have proper resilience covering all routes across the Coast, Crewe, and Salop. You realistically could have two drivers (Cardiff/Chester) covering the entire route. It could even have specials running from Liverpool through to Cardiff on sporting events.

Salop and Crewe drivers don't cover the coast, Junction and Holyhead don't cover Crewe-Salop and most don't cover Chester/Salop

The traction learning cost would be prohibitive, but it would make the services much more reliable. It's not going to happen because of the cost, but it would be the most beneficial.
 

Mollman

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
1,211
It's worth pointing out that if the Cardiff - Holyhead service was a stand alone route with its own dedicated fleet, a 2 hourly service would require between 5 and 6 sets (depending on stopping pattern and how tough the turn around times are). If TfW are taking on 4 extra sets that would give them a total of 7, which would fit rather nicely.

And that's before we get into the operational and political reasons why if these extra sets take are coming it seems more likely to me they'll go to Holyhead rather than Manchester.
Don't forget Manchester is already due to get the 5-car 197s formed on the 1st class fitted 3-car sets and a 2-car set which will be attached / detached at Swansea.
 

47827

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
591
Location
Middleport
A rescue loco couldn't sit at Chester. There is simply no room in the platforms or even parcels, and no Chester crew sign it to keep it in the nearly constantly used yard.

No other depot signs Chester yard, or even the shunts. Same for Abbey Foregate, Salop crew only.

IF and that's a big IF they decide to use more of these, then the most sensible option would be to train a small amount of Chester drivers on them. It would then have proper resilience covering all routes across the Coast, Crewe, and Salop. You realistically could have two drivers (Cardiff/Chester) covering the entire route. It could even have specials running from Liverpool through to Cardiff on sporting events.

Salop and Crewe drivers don't cover the coast, Junction and Holyhead don't cover Crewe-Salop and most don't cover Chester/Salop

The traction learning cost would be prohibitive, but it would make the services much more reliable. It's not going to happen because of the cost, but it would be the most beneficial.

I imagine that's correct RE: Chester although there would be the other cost obstacles anyway that would make sticking a thunderbird there unlikely. If it wasn't the case then either training would have to be undertaken on the sidings or you are reliant on the non passenger bay near the entrance at the Crewe end being free as that's part of the station infrastructure and units go in overnight. Equally likely you'd have a Crewe or Shrewsbury option anyway if you were having a thunderbird in the central parts of where a train might ever need a rescue. As said in my other post I suspect cost would prevent it. Having a second spare loco at Holyhead rather than just the Canton one would seem more likely.
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
875
What I can't understand is that these sets will only have 2 standard class carraiges per set. Hardly a capacity upgrade for standard class passengers over a 3 car 175.
One and a half first class carriages seems overkill compared to just two standard.
Depends on the number of seats within the carriages.
You must remember that its got nothing to do with the number of carriages, it's about how many seats.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,543
Location
Redcar
Depends on the number of seats within the carriages.
You must remember that its got nothing to do with the number of carriages, it's about how many seats.

Indeed though whilst @Cardiff123 got the wrong end of the stick regarding the SV vehicles (as they're standard not first class) it is a fair point that the originally proposed formations (assuming that @43096's source pans out!) do have less capacity in standard class than a 3-car 175. From what I can find a 3-car 175 is around 190 seats whilst the proposed Mk4 sets would have 170 seats (with four additional tip up seats in the wheelchair spaces). Of course that is a fair bit more than the 2-car 175s and overall there are more seats on the train as you gain the 40-odd first class seats as well (so total seats are somewhere north of 200). But it is fair to say that standard class passengers lose out.

Of course if the formations are going to have three full Mk4s to go with the SV and the first class vehicle then that is a capacity gain overall (and a fairly substantial one at that).
 

Cardiff123

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,318
Depends on the number of seats within the carriages.
You must remember that its got nothing to do with the number of carriages, it's about how many seats.
Ok, but whether it's 2 or 2.5 standard class carriages, that's still a downgrade from the 3 standard class carriages there were on the previous Mk3 loco hauled north - south services. TfW should be all about upgrading capacity wherever possible, especially as passengers won't be keen on being packed in crowded trains when people start travelling regularly again. Let's hope that the speculation that the Mk4 sets will have 3.5 standard carriages now is true.

Out of interest, does anyone know how busy did the half carriage first class dining used to get on the Mk3's? Is there going to be enough demand for a full first class carriage?
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
875
Mark IVs don't have SDO do they?
So they can't just add vehicles to the sets and make them longer which is unfortunate.
 

Top