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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

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PHILIPE

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Blimey! They didn't hang about.
Nope! If there’s no realistic prospect of them being re-leased then why hang on to them, incurring storage costs.

Same applies to the 321s as well - which are also Eversholt owned.
 

47827

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I'd guess if a single diagram is got back it'll be just 1 diagram out and back Holyhead to Cardiff as per the original WAG diagram with set swaps at Canton as a handful of drivers at Holyhead/Crewe/Cardiff and enough guards at their respective depots would have passed out by early summer to attempt some sort of turn, given training started again over the winter very slowly. Then amend to 2 diagrams by the end of the summer/September and anything else is still speculation after that. That's all assuming the managers aren't being widly optimistic over the first turn. May could prove to be June/July though of course.
 

Wolfie

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I used the dining service (both ways) about 5 times between December 2019 until March 2020 (just before Covid struck). Southbound you'd get about 50% in dining but the Northbound was pretty much 100% with little space for those turning up at the last minute.

To be honest it was very good high quality food and the staff fantastic. Hopefully, when we get back to normal I can sample it again.
What was the cost like?
 

hexagon789

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No idea but probably Press and high ranking staff. I didn't see them but not ordinary fare paying passengers
Right, wasn't sure if it was purely rail staff or if they'd invited the media

Nope! If there’s no realistic prospect of them being re-leased then why hang on to them, incurring storage costs.

Same applies to the 321s as well - which are also Eversholt owned.
I appreciate that, just surprised how many they'd scrapped as opposed to how many were scrapped and awaiting scrapping.

What was the cost like?
For the first class upgrade?
 

ainsworth74

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What was the cost like?

Depended on exactly what ticking combo you went with and if you had railcards but potentially very cheap. Last few times I did it it was between Cardiff and Chester and I tended to buy a Standard Class AP and then the Business Zone upgrade (utilising a tame booking office clerk as it can be a pain to procure). I can't recall what the AP was without a railcard but probably £20 odd and then the upgrade can be had for £26 on that bit of the route so for around £50 for travel and a three course (very high quality, seriously it was always proper restaurant quality and good portions) meal I'd call it extremely good value.

Both the AP and the Upgrade are railcard discountable as well. I'm sure I've done it for around £30 in the past.
 

nedchester

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Depended on exactly what ticking combo you went with but potentially very cheap. Last few times I did it it was between Cardiff and Chester and I tended to buy a Standard Class AP and then the Business Zone upgrade (utilising a tame booking office clerk as it can be a pain to procure). I can't recall what the AP was without a railcard but probably £20 odd and then the upgrade can be had for £26 on that bit of the route so for around £50 for travel and a three course (very high quality, seriously it was always proper restaurant quality and good portions) meal I'd call it extremely good value.

Both the AP and the Upgrade are railcard discountable as well. I'm sure I've done it for around £30 in the past.
Yes I forgot the AP + Upgrade option as well.

Either way - very good value.
 

Wolfie

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Nope! If there’s no realistic prospect of them being re-leased then why hang on to them, incurring storage costs.

Same applies to the 321s as well - which are also Eversholt owned.
Agreed. That's what makes some of the more outlandish MK3 proposals seen on here even more ridiculous.

A Chester to Cardiff C Off-peak return was about £79 for Standard and £119 for First but included Breakfast in the morning and 3-course meal in the evening.
TY.

Right, wasn't sure if it was purely rail staff or if they'd invited the media


I appreciate that, just surprised how many they'd scrapped as opposed to how many were scrapped and awaiting scrapping.


For the first class upgrade?
Re the cost: for the upgrade and the food.
 

ainsworth74

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Yes I forgot the AP + Upgrade option as well.

Either way - very good value.

Yes that was always the cheapest way of doing it. I think technically it wasn't valid to use a Standard AP with the upgrade but I've never had a conductor on there even given a second glance once presented with the upgrade and a reservation for the business zone. The 1st Class APs were usually not too bad value either. I did it once from Cardiff to Holyhead and opted for APs as I was travelling with my mother and decided to go for the 100% guaranteed no bother option rather than the 99% guaranteed no bother option and I feel like they came in at around £60 each. Which again considering the inclusive food, distance travelled and first class I thought was excellent value even if it wasn't the cheapest way of doing it.

It's one of the reasons I feel like there might be some growth potential on the service. I think you could probably jack up the prices a bit and as long as you maintained the quality service still sell even more seats than they were doing pre-pandemic (with a bit of marketing).
 

Wolfie

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Depended on exactly what ticking combo you went with and if you had railcards but potentially very cheap. Last few times I did it it was between Cardiff and Chester and I tended to buy a Standard Class AP and then the Business Zone upgrade (utilising a tame booking office clerk as it can be a pain to procure). I can't recall what the AP was without a railcard but probably £20 odd and then the upgrade can be had for £26 on that bit of the route so for around £50 for travel and a three course (very high quality, seriously it was always proper restaurant quality and good portions) meal I'd call it extremely good value.

Both the AP and the Upgrade are railcard discountable as well. I'm sure I've done it for around £30 in the past.
Sounds great value done that way, TY.
 

craigybagel

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I'd guess if a single diagram is got back it'll be just 1 diagram out and back Holyhead to Cardiff as per the original WAG diagram with set swaps at Canton as a handful of drivers at Holyhead/Crewe/Cardiff and enough guards at their respective depots would have passed out by early summer to attempt some sort of turn, given training started again over the winter very slowly. Then amend to 2 diagrams by the end of the summer/September and anything else is still speculation after that. That's all assuming the managers aren't being widly optimistic over the first turn. May could prove to be June/July though of course.
Not sure I'd say the training is that slow - 2 guards and 2 drivers can be trained per depot a per week, and that is often being achieved. It's a 3 day course for each (though in the drivers case that's only the conversation if they previously signed 67s and MKIIIs).
Didn't it use to be a flat fee? Or has it always worked on a distance basis?
Certainly been a distance basis for many years, predating the change from First class to Business class. You can play around with BR fares and get the prices for each station combination.
 

hexagon789

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Certainly been a distance basis for many years, predating the change from First class to Business class. You can play around with BR fares and get the prices for each station combination.
I've misunderstood the pricing then

Something like £20 CDF-SHR £25 CDF-CTR £30 CDF-HHD
That's probably where I'm getting the '£20' figure from - the minimum to make use of the dining facilities?
 

IanXC

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I've misunderstood the pricing then


That's probably where I'm getting the '£20' figure from - the minimum to make use of the dining facilities?

I seem to recall that if travelling a shorter distance its possible to obtain lighter options in the morning, or selected courses in the evening (I have a recollection of a story of someone having a starter and a dessert for instance).
 

craigybagel

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I seem to recall that if travelling a shorter distance its possible to obtain lighter options in the morning, or selected courses in the evening (I have a recollection of a story of someone having a starter and a dessert for instance).
You can get a full meal for less than £20, there are cheaper station pairings that give time for a full meal if you look hard enough for them.
 

DorkingMain

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But how is the ORR's prefered auto-SDO (potentially relying on GPS that is not 100% accurate depending on whether a GPS-based or balise-based system is used) safer than a guard pressing a button to unlock only the doors ahead/behind the local panel instead of all doors (as I am led to believe it was done on GWR HSTs - in fact is it still done this way on the GWR Pembroke Dock services?)? I can understand the ORR not allowing unlocking of all doors at a short platform and relying on passengers to check there is a platform; obvious saftey risk there. But with SDO there I cannot see the risk.
Manual SDO errors are unfortunately much more common than ASDO technical failures. It relies on the guard remembering to be in the right place and activate it.

When I worked with a balise based ASDO system, if it didn't receive a signal it would simply open in "default" condition - defined by the platform length of the shortest platform served by that type of train. In the case of Class 444s for example that was 3 coaches for Beaulieu Road. I don't know if the same applies to GPS based systems.
 

hexagon789

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I seem to recall that if travelling a shorter distance its possible to obtain lighter options in the morning, or selected courses in the evening (I have a recollection of a story of someone having a starter and a dessert for instance).
As in - you could have the full lot but could request smaller meals if short on time etc?
 

craigybagel

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Having just had a look through BR Fares there are no Business class upgrade fares available for shorter journeys. They are only available for travel between stations from Holyhead - Shrewsbury to stations from Abergavenny to Cardiff, or vice versa. In many cases (especially along the North Wales coast) you could use first class tickets to get the same benefit but that would not be a cheap option - would you want to pay for that and feel like you need to rush your meal?
 

Bletchleyite

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Having just had a look through BR Fares there are no Business class upgrade fares available for shorter journeys. They are only available for travel between stations from Holyhead - Shrewsbury to stations from Abergavenny to Cardiff, or vice versa. In many cases (especially along the North Wales coast) you could use first class tickets to get the same benefit but that would not be a cheap option - would you want to pay for that and feel like you need to rush your meal?

Moved reply to a speculative thread:
 
Last edited:

Rhydgaled

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Manual SDO errors are unfortunately much more common than ASDO technical failures. It relies on the guard remembering to be in the right place and activate it.

When I worked with a balise based ASDO system, if it didn't receive a signal it would simply open in "default" condition - defined by the platform length of the shortest platform served by that type of train. In the case of Class 444s for example that was 3 coaches for Beaulieu Road. I don't know if the same applies to GPS based systems.
Presumably now that announcements of the next stop are mandatory as part of the PRM regulations the annoucement will remind the guard to be in the right place? Admittedly there is potential for human error there which is not present with a balise-based ASDO system but in my experience of GPS the potential for an error is much greater with GPS than I would expect from a well-trained guard. Of course the rail industry probably doesn't use the sort of GPS I was using on my university project (I was tracking bus services and wrote a software application that tried to provide punctuality statistics for said services); whenever the bus was stationary the GPS trace would wander many metres from the actual location and cause my software to think the bus had departed early, but I've never seen sufficient detail of GPS-based ASDO systems to know whether they are likely to suffer from the same issue.

In other words, based on my experience of GPS, I would be more inclined to trust the guard than GPS-based ASDO, but balise-based ASDO would probably be the safest of the three systems.
 

ainsworth74

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Isn't GPS only accurate to something like 3 metres unless you have the military spec upgraded system ?? I'm sure it was on a technology program

No civilian and military GPS are both as accurate as each other. GPS satellites broadcast on two different frequencies so the difference in accuracy creeps in because many civilian applications (such as smart phones) only have the capability of receiving one frequency whilst military (or professional civilian kit) will receive both giving the ability to be accurate to a few centimetres rather than a few meters (which is what your smartphone will manage). What is done is the there are speed (1,900kmh or 1,200mph) and altitude (18,000m or 59,000ft) limits fitted to civilian equipment to prevent them being used as guidance in things like long range missiles.

In the very very early days of civilian access to GPS they did deliberately make it so that they were less accurate than the military equivalent but that ended back in 2000 once it was clear what the potential benefits were of making extremely accurate navigation equipment available to everyone were.
 

ainsworth74

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Does anyone know what vehicles TfW have currently leased (so ignoring any they may or may not be getting from GC)?
 

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