Llangollen Railway appoints receivers

[35B]

I'm sure they'd attract in loco preservation societies if they found themselves short of locos, and I doubt there is a shortage of people who would volunteer to be drivers, firemen and guards (as that's the fun "playing trains" bit), and Mk1 and Mk2 fresh-air coaching stock is hardly rare, either. The main thing of concern is the infrastructure, as once a housing estate gets plonked on any part of it it's gone for good.

Except that it's much of the Mk1 rolling stock that's on the block to pay the debts, where serviceable examples are increasingly scarce and therefore desirable. As for the loco owners, I'd be more than a little cautious if I owned a loco given the collapse of the Llangollen Railway plc is largely the result of problems with the contract engineering business at Llangollen - problems that have left the preservation groups involved significantly out of pocket due to issues with the work done, not to mention the enforced moves.

I've also seen it suggested that, if the debts from the plc aren't cleared by the administration process, there could be a serious knock-on effect elsewhere as lenders reassess the ability of preserved railway plc organisations to repay the money due. As a common structure is a combined charity and plc, with most of the key assets owned "safely" by the charity, this could have a serious impact.

 

[Djgr]

And having checked over lunchtime, the only regular public transport connection to England seems to be the bus to Oswestry. These things matter the older you get.

Point well made but also a short bus ride to Ruabon with regular trains to Chester

 

[EbbwJunction1]

And having checked over lunchtime, the only regular public transport connection to England seems to be the bus to Oswestry. These things matter the older you get.

Point well made but also a short bus ride to Ruabon with regular trains to Chester

The latter is the route that I had been looking at using from South Wales before the current unpleasantness (Covid, not financial). It's a good route with a pretty regular bus service from Ruabon in normal times; my fingers are crossed that I'll be able to do it again.

 

[Stroud Valleys]

A major knock on effect for other heritage lines is lenders increasingly becoming more nervous about lending to plcs if like llangollen there is not sufficient security.

If the Llangollen plc had lied about their assets, the former directors will be pursued for criminal and civil claims. Potentially any trustees of the charity arm who were knowingly involved could equally be involved as well.

The administrators report to the insolvency service will be a very interesting but equally damming report for the entire llangollen set up, effectively putting a black mark against any previous director named and shamed from being involved in any railway operation in a senior capacity.

Hopefully at auction some monies can be raised, and the bare bones of a railway is still there is allow a simple railway operation to be made.

 

[mpthomson]

Wasn't the previous Duke of Westminster who passed away a few years ago a bit of an enthusiast and member or patron of the trust? A shame he is not around the debt at Llangollen would be just small change for him!

Apologies, only just reading this thread, having known the man in question through the military reasonably well, he wouldn't have been throwing his money at something broken without major changes being made to ensure its financial viability. He wasn't a sentimental man.

 

[John Luxton]

Apologies, only just reading this thread, having known the man in question through the military reasonably well, he wouldn't have been throwing his money at something broken without major changes being made to ensure its financial viability. He wasn't a sentimental man.

Obviously business people can't afford to be sentimental and one would not expect money just to be thrown at something which wasn't run properly - but who might be able to help steer things back and ensure management suitable for the job are in place. LR appears to certainly have suffered a high degree of mismanagement in recent years.

 

[alexl92]

Obviously business people can't afford to be sentimental and one would not expect money just to be thrown at something which wasn't run properly - but who might be able to help steer things back and ensure management suitable for the job are in place. LR appears to certainly have suffered a high degree of mismanagement in recent years.

This is purely hypothetical thinking (so please don't quote it elsewhere as rumour or even fact), but given that Jeremy Hosking appeared quite keen to support the railway by giving them the contract to overhaul 92212 when other groups were pulling their locos out, I do wonder if he might consider offering his business expertise and maybe a few quid to a potential rescue deal - as an advisor or something like that to ensure things are done properly? He appears to already have a strong relationship with the Watercress Line so there might be a conflict of interest, I don't know.

As I say, I'm not suggesting he would or will. Just a thought.

 

[John Luxton]

This is purely hypothetical thinking (so please don't quote it elsewhere as rumour or even fact), but given that Jeremy Hosking appeared quite keen to support the railway by giving them the contract to overhaul 92212 when other groups were pulling their locos out, I do wonder if he might consider offering his business expertise and maybe a few quid to a potential rescue deal - as an advisor or something like that to ensure things are done properly? He appears to already have a strong relationship with the Watercress Line so there might be a conflict of interest, I don't know.

As I say, I'm not suggesting he would or will. Just a thought.

That sounds very plausible he is a significant shareholder in the Dart Valley Railway Company - one of the few lines which has made a success of purely commercial operation combining it with ferries, pleasure steamers and buses. DVR management would probably know how to exploit the tourist potential of Llangollen Railway. - Be interesting to see if suggestion turns out to be correct.

 

[35B]

Obviously business people can't afford to be sentimental and one would not expect money just to be thrown at something which wasn't run properly - but who might be able to help steer things back and ensure management suitable for the job are in place. LR appears to certainly have suffered a high degree of mismanagement in recent years.

Just bear in mind that it's not uncommon for someone to allow their name to be used as a patron for a cause on the express condition that they aren't expected to do anything else for that cause.

 

[quantinghome]

That sounds very plausible he is a significant shareholder in the Dart Valley Railway Company - one of the few lines which has made a success of purely commercial operation combining it with ferries, pleasure steamers and buses. DVR management would probably know how to exploit the tourist potential of Llangollen Railway. - Be interesting to see if suggestion turns out to be correct.

Dartmouth railway is profitable due to geography:

- It is short.
- It connects a significant population centre.
- It connects perfectly with other transport modes (national rail and ferry).
- Road journeys are inconvenient by comparison.
- It's located in a very large tourist market.

Llangollen has none of these advantages.

 

[BayPaul]

Dartmouth railway is profitable due to geography:

- It is short.
- It connects a significant population centre.
- It connects perfectly with other transport modes (national rail and ferry).
- Road journeys are inconvenient by comparison.
- It's located in a very large tourist market.

Llangollen has none of these advantages.

It also has the advantage that it goes TO a town that is a very big tourist attraction (with very limited parking as you mentioned). Unlike most heritage railways it is actually used as a means of (tourist) transport - the vast majority of passengers use it as a way of having a day in Dartmouth during their stay in Torbay, and just take a simple return trip on it as part of that day out. Most other heritage lines in tourist areas, including the Llangollen, are effectively a round-trip attraction, with little at the far end, so need to entertain their visitors all day with museums / multiple trips etc, which is much more challenging. Cunningly, Dartmouth railway can effectively charge a price for a full day out, whilst only looking after its passengers for around 2 hours! Swanage also has a similar advantage.

 

[paul1609]

That sounds very plausible he is a significant shareholder in the Dart Valley Railway Company - one of the few lines which has made a success of purely commercial operation combining it with ferries, pleasure steamers and buses. DVR management would probably know how to exploit the tourist potential of Llangollen Railway. - Be interesting to see if suggestion turns out to be correct.

Jeremy has a lot of different fingers in different pies in the heritage railway world, but the problem is as Ive described on here before is no two railways are the same you couldn't apply the dart Valley Railway principles to the Llangollen and expect it to flourish. It needs dedicated management at each site to develop it strengths.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It also has the advantage that it goes TO a town that is a very big tourist attraction (with very limited parking as you mentioned). Unlike most heritage railways it is actually used as a means of (tourist) transport - the vast majority of passengers use it as a way of having a day in Dartmouth during their stay in Torbay, and just take a simple return trip on it as part of that day out. Most other heritage lines in tourist areas, including the Llangollen, are effectively a round-trip attraction, with little at the far end, so need to entertain their visitors all day with museums / multiple trips etc, which is much more challenging. Cunningly, Dartmouth railway can effectively charge a price for a full day out, whilst only looking after its passengers for around 2 hours! Swanage also has a similar advantage.

I'm not sure. When I've travelled out and back on the train (using the RST concession is only for rail, obviously) I've noticed that everyone else leaves the station at Kingswear and continues on what is called the 'Round Robin' - open top bus and ferry.

It's a very commercial operation (that's not a criticism!) with very tight barrier control and 100% on train ticket inspection. Ticket sales at the station are only for the next train, and when it's full (seated) the booking office closes until the next train. Their loco utilisation must be the best in the whole railway industry - seems to be two locos working two diagrams day in day out.

 

[TPO]

I'm not sure. When I've travelled out and back on the train (using the RST concession is only for rail, obviously) I've noticed that everyone else leaves the station at Kingswear and continues on what is called the 'Round Robin' - open top bus and ferry.

It's a very commercial operation (that's not a criticism!) with very tight barrier control and 100% on train ticket inspection. Ticket sales at the station are only for the next train, and when it's full (seated) the booking office closes until the next train. Their loco utilisation must be the best in the whole railway industry - seems to be two locos working two diagrams day in day out.

You've hit the nail on the head- "it's a very commercial operation."

Whether running trains or doing engineering, effective commercial operations require a certain level of coherent management control and compliance systems.

From what I have seen in railway engineering across Heritage and different levels of mainline, tooo many Heritage organisations who do engineering are (at best) stuck somewhere around the 1980's in quality/process management. Even where there's a really good paid staff engineering core, they can be undermined when the engineering sheds become dumping grounds; when influential persons or those who hold a Board role own a loco, it's not unusual for the railway to become their free storage/workshop facilities, and volunteers are allowed to make the place untidy and have stuff everywhere. I doubt many Heritage people realise the value/cost of railway shed and pit/workshop space (or even siding space) on the open market!.

Similarly, when you have a management board and "Heads of" who are amateurs or retired senior fitters/Drivers/Guards who know the front-end stuff but never managed at that level, it's not always going to end well. Even where someone did a job like "Driver Training" in a mainline company, there they had the whole system behind them- someone else (usually several someone elses in fact) wrote the training packs and build the CMS that they used. There's quite a few in Heritage think they can build SMS's, CMS's and accompanying architecture but not many actually can produce something that is ailored for th eoperaiton in question, and would stand up to proper scrutiny in the event of an accident and full-on investigation; their competences/qualifications may similarly not stand up either. A lot of "old boy" connections and backy-scratchy in Heritage, and not a great lot of checking of professional indemnity insurance and qualifications (e.g. chartered in suitable professional body) methinks.

The "trust" type structure or PLC may not help as it too often decouples decisions from responsibility. It also makes it more difficult to make necessary-but-unpopular decisions and easier for a control-freak-on-an-ego-trip type character to dominate a railway and run it into the ground without any consequences. In a nutshell, the governance is not always good.

No doubt the pressure of COVID will have been the final load which broke a few crumbling structures, we'll find out in as the season unfolds. Llangollen may be the first to come to public notice but (unfortunately) I strongly suspect it won't be the last.

TPO

 

[BayPaul]

I'm not sure. When I've travelled out and back on the train (using the RST concession is only for rail, obviously) I've noticed that everyone else leaves the station at Kingswear and continues on what is called the 'Round Robin' - open top bus and ferry.

It's a very commercial operation (that's not a criticism!) with very tight barrier control and 100% on train ticket inspection. Ticket sales at the station are only for the next train, and when it's full (seated) the booking office closes until the next train. Their loco utilisation must be the best in the whole railway industry - seems to be two locos working two diagrams day in day out.

I was including that as part of their operation. Almost everyone goes across to Dartmouth (on their ferry), and as you say, a lot continue on the round Robin. This is unlike most other lines of my experience, where you board at one station, half an hour later get to the other, have lunch, wander around the engine shed, get the train back, then try to decide if you want to do another round trip, or if it is time to go home. I think that's a reason they attract such high numbers.

The P&DSR is as you say, a proper commercial tourist attraction, very well run, professional and efficient.

 

[6Gman]

That may well be true generally, but Llangollen is a popular coach day trip from north-west/midlands origins, and its attractions are more than the railway.
It is just one of several things to do in the town, and many will just gaze at the train movements in the station while eating ice cream on the Dee bridge, watching the canoeists in the river or the horse-drawn narrow boats on the canal, or attempting the first bit of the steep climb to Castell Dinas Brân or the walk to Horseshoe Falls.
There might also be an antiques fair at the Eisteddfod site, and bikers like to congregate at the Ponderosa cafe at the top of the Horseshoe Pass.
The coaches, and bikers, will keep coming even if the railway is moribund.

I think this makes an important point, which as two significant implications:

1. Given the other attractions in and adjacent to the town how many visitors are inclined to devote £ x and time y to actually travelling on the railway rather than just watching it from the Dee Bridge?
2. Would the closure of the railway have a significant impact on the overall number and total spend of visitors to the town?

 

[Cowley]

If we could keep the discussions about the Dartmouth Steam Railway to this thread about profitable railways from here on that would be good:

Profitable Railways

Are there any railways in the United Kingdom which made a regular profit before Covid? I ask as a follow up to the thread about Llangollen Railway and it's receivers. I assume the following did make money: Snowdon Mountain Railway Dartmouth Vale of Reheidol? Any others?

www.railforums.co.uk

I do realise that some of this is relevant but it feels like we need to keep this discussion on the Llangollen where possible as it’s a very important subject.
Thanks all.

 

[paul1609]

I was including that as part of their operation. Almost everyone goes across to Dartmouth (on their ferry), and as you say, a lot continue on the round Robin. This is unlike most other lines of my experience, where you board at one station, half an hour later get to the other, have lunch, wander around the engine shed, get the train back, then try to decide if you want to do another round trip, or if it is time to go home. I think that's a reason they attract such high numbers.

The P&DSR is as you say, a proper commercial tourist attraction, very well run, professional and efficient.

The Llangollen is probably more akin to the South Devon Railway in both its location and organisation and of course the super professional commercial organisations method to that when it realised it couldn't make a profit was to close it down/ sell it on.

 

[John Luxton]

I think this makes an important point, which as two significant implications:

1. Given the other attractions in and adjacent to the town how many visitors are inclined to devote £ x and time y to actually travelling on the railway rather than just watching it from the Dee Bridge?
2. Would the closure of the railway have a significant impact on the overall number and total spend of visitors to the town?

Interesting comment on watching it from the Dee Bridge. I visited Llangollen frequently, several times a year, except for a gap between late 90s and early naughties. From my observation it always seems to attract not just to the bridge but also the platforms more "Gongoozlers" - sorry for using a canal term for observers - but it seems appropriate - than many other heritage lines I can think of.

When visiting other lines the majority of people on the platform and in the station are either arriving or departing - however sometimes at Llangollen I have noted more watchers than travellers on more than a few occasions, something one would not get at say Porthmadog. I think for some reason or another they have not been able to get the gongoozlers on board. It seems strange really as the station is in a good popular tourist town centre location than compared to quite a few other heritage lines. It needs some way of getting these people on board. Opening from Corwen could present some excellent park and ride opportunities given the ample parking adjacent to Corwen station.

Llangollen appears to have always been a fairly popular tourist town for some - I recall being taken there by my parents in the 1960s during the period the railway was closed and to me it appeared somewhat unexciting and despite living only 45 miles away never started going back until the late 1980s when the railway reached Berwyn and after that have generally kept going. I thought the railway gave the town added meaning.

I would imagine that the closure of the railway could have some effect on local hotels and that especially for gala weekends. When I am in the area I have often had an evening meal at the Britannia Inn and I know from comments the landlady there has made is that she gets regular staying guests for the gala weekends.

Overall, though hotels in the area from my observation have gone through a rough time in recent years. Several have gone bust and reopened in the last 10 - 15 years including Chain Bridge and Wild Pheasant. Whitewaters has been closed since early 2019.

John

 

[reddragon]

I have driven past the Llangollen Railway many times and have twice tried to visit the railway without success.

The last time was from the west but timetables were out & back from Llangollen making my trip unviable from the Corwen end.

It is small things that add up & stop custom.

 

[paul1609]

I have driven past the Llangollen Railway many times and have twice tried to visit the railway without success.

The last time was from the west but timetables were out & back from Llangollen making my trip unviable from the Corwen end.

It is small things that add up & stop custom.

To base your timetable on your major passenger flows is important for profitability on a heritage railway. its not public transport where you are going to be paid huge sums for providing trains that don't carry any passengers. At my railway 85% of the passengers come from the Kent end of the line and the timetable is planned accordingly. As many of our passengers get off at Bodiam castle and spend a day or half day there we try to fill the back trains with campers and reverse flow coach parties but it does mean that the timetable is not ideal for starting at the East Sussex End. If we were to run a timetable that accommodated starting at Bodiam it would double our costs to increase our passenger loads by maybe 10 to 15% wed also need twice as many volunteers that's just not feasible financially. Im sure the Llangollen is probably the same.

 

[reddragon]

To base your timetable on your major passenger flows is important for profitability on a heritage railway. its not public transport where you are going to be paid huge sums for providing trains that don't carry any passengers. At my railway 85% of the passengers come from the Kent end of the line and the timetable is planned accordingly. As many of our passengers get off at Bodiam castle and spend a day or half day there we try to fill the back trains with campers and reverse flow coach parties but it does mean that the timetable is not ideal for starting at the East Sussex End. If we were to run a timetable that accommodated starting at Bodiam it would double our costs to increase our passenger loads by maybe 10 to 15% wed also need twice as many volunteers that's just not feasible financially. Im sure the Llangollen is probably the same.

The issue with the Llangollen is that parking is a nightmare, as is traffic & walk to the station. As I have only visited North Wales in the Summer, those facts has prevented me from accessing the railway. At Corwen, there is a large easy access car park and a destination a train ride away in Llangollen.

On my railway, the original main station brought in 90%+ of trade and has the main car park, loco depot & stock. When extended to its current southern extent, trade both grew & shifted to the other end. Now, early trains run light to the other end to pick up the trade & provide the extra income to maintain the extra infrastructure. Income doubled and trade became shared between the 2 ends.

If the Llangollen operated fresh air trains, perhaps a change of this sort was urgently required?

 

[paul1609]

The issue with the Llangollen is that parking is a nightmare, as is traffic & walk to the station. As I have only visited North Wales in the Summer, those facts has prevented me from accessing the railway. At Corwen, there is a large easy access car park and a destination a train ride away in Llangollen.

On my railway, the original main station brought in 90%+ of trade and has the main car park, loco depot & stock. When extended to its current southern extent, trade both grew & shifted to the other end. Now, early trains run light to the other end to pick up the trade & provide the extra income to maintain the extra infrastructure. Income doubled and trade became shared between the 2 ends.

If the Llangollen operated fresh air trains, perhaps a change of this sort was urgently required?

I don't know which railway is yours but as I have stated previously the business case depends on the individual railway. I suspect that the LLangollens business case is highly dependant on people arriving by road transport on the A5 from the urban centres to the east. People are not going to drive through Llangollen for 10 miles to then get a train back to what Id suggest is probably only a couple of hour stop.

 

[6Gman]

I don't know which railway is yours but as I have stated previously the business case depends on the individual railway. I suspect that the LLangollens business case is highly dependant on people arriving by road transport on the A5 from the urban centres to the east. People are not going to drive through Llangollen for 10 miles to then get a train back to what Id suggest is probably only a couple of hour stop.

That was rather the point I was trying to make. My judgement is that a very high proportion of visitors to Llangollen are day trippers who spend, perhaps, 4 or 5 hours in the town. By the time they've had a walk round, looked in a few shops, had a meal ... does spending £30 or so on the thick end of two hours on a train journey to nowhere in particular and back again constitute an attractive option ?

 

[John Luxton]

I don't know which railway is yours but as I have stated previously the business case depends on the individual railway. I suspect that the LLangollens business case is highly dependant on people arriving by road transport on the A5 from the urban centres to the east. People are not going to drive through Llangollen for 10 miles to then get a train back to what Id suggest is probably only a couple of hour stop.

I suppose it depends where you are coming from.

From Merseyside I always find it easier and probably quicker as it avoids going round Chester to cut through Queensferry and head for the Corwen end of the line. I I have nearly always parked at Carrog - free car park!

I think for Merseyside / Wirral the Corwen end is the more attractive option.

Many people heading to the FWHR probably drive past Blaenau Ffestiniog to Porthmadog and then head back up the line, thus doubling back.

 

[L401CJF]

As a kid, we used to go to Llangollen for the santa specials every year without fail. We always used to book a compartment which seated 6 (there was 6 of us) then they altered it to squeeze 8 in,so all of a sudden you'd be mingled in with half another family which put us off in the end.

I used to go there for the diesel galas, but over the years the diesel fleet dwindled right down to the point where I don't think they even did diesel galas? The line only really appeals these days to those who fancy a trip on an old steam hauled train rather than enthusiasts, they don't really offer much else. Over the last 20years they seem to have narrowed their market right down to fit the one image and one era in my opinion.

So I could either drive all the way into Llangollen from Merseyside, struggle to park, for a rare day where they have a diesel locomotive scheduled to run which may not run as is often the case. OR, I could drive for a similar amount of time in the opposite direction to the East Lancashire Railway, for a diesel weekend where I am guaranteed a good variety of traction. For me its a no brainer!

Llangollen is a railway I really used to love, and it's been a shame to watch its demise. Unfortunately it just doesn't offer what I look for anymore.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

As a kid, we used to go to Llangollen for the santa specials every year without fail. We always used to book a compartment which seated 6 (there was 6 of us) then they altered it to squeeze 8 in,so all of a sudden you'd be mingled in with half another family which put us off in the end.

I used to go there for the diesel galas, but over the years the diesel fleet dwindled right down to the point where I don't think they even did diesel galas? The line only really appeals these days to those who fancy a trip on an old steam hauled train rather than enthusiasts, they don't really offer much else. Over the last 20years they seem to have narrowed their market right down to fit the one image and one era in my opinion.

So I could either drive all the way into Llangollen from Merseyside, struggle to park, for a rare day where they have a diesel locomotive scheduled to run which may not run as is often the case. OR, I could drive for a similar amount of time in the opposite direction to the East Lancashire Railway, for a diesel weekend where I am guaranteed a good variety of traction. For me its a no brainer!

Llangollen is a railway I really used to love, and it's been a shame to watch its demise. Unfortunately it just doesn't offer what I look for anymore.

What an interesting post. My impression of the Llangollen is of somewhere that could use diesel traction to advantage as that rat hole of a tunnel made keeping things clean a losing battle. Probably the bulk of the clientèle preferred steam. The Isle of Wight Steam Railway experimented with a diesel Gala a little while ago but it was not lucrative and was discontinued. In other words you stick with your particular strengths. With the IOWSR the unique selling point is ''no blasted boring Mk.1 carriages'' whilst that of Llangollen is the Deeside scenery.

 

[reddragon]

I don't know which railway is yours but as I have stated previously the business case depends on the individual railway. I suspect that the LLangollens business case is highly dependant on people arriving by road transport on the A5 from the urban centres to the east. People are not going to drive through Llangollen for 10 miles to then get a train back to what Id suggest is probably only a couple of hour stop.

That is of course ignoring the large resident holiday traffic staying in Snowdonia, those coming down from Manchester / Merseyside to Corwen - which is quicker to reach than to Llangollen and anyone unable to park in Llangollen from the east.

Looking at the map, there isn't even enough parking to fill one train in Llangollen! The official website for visit Llangollen doesn't even mention parking! Corwen on the other hand has a large car park by the station.

Driving to Corwen, travelling by train into Llangollen (somewhere to visit) and riding back is therefore very attractive to a railway carrying fresh air!

 

[Vespa]

That may well be true generally, but Llangollen is a popular coach day trip from north-west/midlands origins, and its attractions are more than the railway.
It is just one of several things to do in the town, and many will just gaze at the train movements in the station while eating ice cream on the Dee bridge, watching the canoeists in the river or the horse-drawn narrow boats on the canal, or attempting the first bit of the steep climb to Castell Dinas Brân or the walk to Horseshoe Falls.
There might also be an antiques fair at the Eisteddfod site, and bikers like to congregate at the Ponderosa cafe at the top of the Horseshoe Pass.
The coaches, and bikers, will keep coming even if the railway is moribund.

Coach parties "gazing at trains" and not paying to ride on it is not making money for the railway.

I don't really do coach trips, I hate them, being cooped up with strangers and forced to go at their pace, I prefer to travel independently and go at my own pace, take as long as I want without worrying about catching the coach back, I'm sure there are many like that, family groups, individuals, coach parties is declining because cars are more affordable and enthusiast only makes up a small proportion of visitors to heritage railways, for heritage railways to survive it would have to follow the money, turn it into an experience for the customers, no grumpy "take it or leave it" BR style customer services here.

Hopefully Llangollen will learn some lessons from this and shake up the way it conducts itself, making pragmatic decisions without any egos messing it up and ensure the survival of the railway, history is littered with closed factories and business because of inflated egos and conflict, customers don't care and take their money elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coach parties "gazing at trains" and not paying to ride on it is not making money for the railway.

Depends. If they book into the railway cafe they still get money out of them, for example.

I don't really do coach trips, I hate them, being cooped up with strangers and forced to go at their pace, I prefer to travel independently and go at my own pace, take as long as I want without worrying about catching the coach back, I'm sure there are many like that, family groups, individuals, coach parties is declining because cars are more affordable and enthusiast only makes up a small proportion of visitors to heritage railways, for heritage railways to survive it would have to follow the money, turn it into an experience for the customers, no grumpy "take it or leave it" BR style customer services here.

Coach tours aren't popular in the way they were, but they are still a thing, primarily for older people who don't want to drive that far and often do like the social aspect with other like minded people. The S&C service trains end up booked up with them going a couple of stops often enough!

Hopefully Llangollen will learn some lessons from this and shake up the way it conducts itself, making pragmatic decisions without any egos messing it up and ensure the survival of the railway, history is littered with closed factories and business because of inflated egos and conflict, customers don't care and take their money elsewhere.

The issue with voluntary organisations - basically all of them - is that there's always politics. A knighthood would be due to someone who can actually solve that. Scouting is a prime example, it's insanely political.