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The case for and against the effectiveness of face coverings and the mandating of their use

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AlterEgo

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I don't understand why you "hope usage goes down"

I am very happy that it is a personal choice, and I will usually choose to not wear one, but I couldn't care less what other people are doing as it is a personal choice and I have no idea what factors have gone into that decision.

You complained earlier in this thread about someone who you thought was judging you for not wearing one - this kind of language could be interpreted as making a similar judgement of people who are wearing them as it infers they are making the "wrong" decision

It was always going to be a gradual process and that is not helped by the fact we are in the middle of another wave (though I know not as serious due to vaccines) and because of the ineptitude of our Government.
Well, quite. I am happy not to wear one, and indeed, I am not wearing one unless I am visiting somewhere that explicitly requires it as part of the house rules. But it's not a war. If some people choose to wear a mask that is up to them. We now have personal choice and the ability to decide for ourselves, which is good.
 
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bramling

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I don't understand why you "hope usage goes down"

I am very happy that it is a personal choice, and I will usually choose to not wear one, but I couldn't care less what other people are doing as it is a personal choice and I have no idea what factors have gone into that decision.

You complained earlier in this thread about someone who you thought was judging you for not wearing one - this kind of language could be interpreted as making a similar judgement of people who are wearing them as it infers they are making the "wrong" decision

It was always going to be a gradual process and that is not helped by the fact we are in the middle of another wave (though I know not as serious due to vaccines) and because of the ineptitude of our Government.

I hope it goes down too. It’s not normal to see covered faces, and it’s quite clear they’re well into chocolate teapot territory in terms of their effectiveness. For many they are a comfort blanket, and a reduction in overall use would show that increasing numbers of people are regaining the confidence to live a normal fulfilled life, without being scared that anyone else is some dirty germ-laden monster lying in wait to kill them.

However if people choose to wear them then on an individual level it’s fine by me.
 

Class 33

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I hope it goes down too. It’s not normal to see covered faces, and it’s quite clear they’re well into chocolate teapot territory in terms of their effectiveness. For many they are a comfort blanket, and a reduction in overall use would show that increasing numbers of people are regaining the confidence to live a normal fulfilled life, without being scared that anyone else is some dirty germ-laden monster lying in wait to kill them.

However if people choose to wear them then on an individual level it’s

fine by me.


Seconded.
 

Bristol Rich

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I'm sorry, unless i have mis-read this you actively want to see less people covering their faces on public transport around the city when the city's R rate is now the worse its ever been and when 30 neighbourhoods within the area are in the most severe covid category?!!!

This will help how ???

I accept face coverings are a personal choice however im reasonably confident they help on public transport and surely we need to be doing all we can to stop this spread at the minute so actively wanting to see less people wearing them is a bit bizarre in my opinion.

I genuinely think i must have mis understood the post i think, apologies.


Some encouraging posts here about the reduced numbers of mask wearers on public transport. Here in Bristol on the buses so far this week I'd say it's about 60% on average still wearing masks. Hope it further receeds over the coming weeks.
 

Class 33

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I don't understand why you "hope usage goes down"

I am very happy that it is a personal choice, and I will usually choose to not wear one, but I couldn't care less what other people are doing as it is a personal choice and I have no idea what factors have gone into that decision.

You complained earlier in this thread about someone who you thought was judging you for not wearing one - this kind of language could be interpreted as making a similar judgement of people who are wearing them as it infers they are making the "wrong" decision

It was always going to be a gradual process and that is not helped by the fact we are in the middle of another wave (though I know not as serious due to vaccines) and because of the ineptitude of our Government.

As I've previously mentioned, the problem is what I'm concerned(and others here will share my concern) about is if mask wearing on public transport and in shops, etc remains high, then the government ministers will notice this and think "Well it seems the vast majority of people are wearing masks. So let's reimpose mandatory face mask rules again.". We just can't have that happening again. By all means let it remain optional and I think over the coming months more people will become confident to ditch wearing them. But to reimpose mandatory face mask wearing all over again, PLEASE GOD NO!!!

However from my observations since Monday, it appears face mask wearing is slowly disappearing.
 

Bristol Rich

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Ok so I have read the post correctly.

Its of course a personal choice to wear a face covering, personally I will on public transport for now certainly around the local area due to as i detailed above the cases around here are at horifically bad levels.

Class 33 it is of course your right not to wear one and i certainly myself wouldnt look at you / stare at you for not wearing one, however i dont think you should be surprised that a few people will at the moment.
 

Merseysider

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This will help how ???
More cases doesn’t result in an exponential increase in deaths. Most people who catch the virus now will be young and healthy.

40-50,000 cases per day and just over 50 deaths on average.

I’m of the opinion that masks aren’t going to make a difference to the death rate.
 

Ianno87

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I hope it goes down too. It’s not normal to see covered faces, and it’s quite clear they’re well into chocolate teapot territory in terms of their effectiveness. For many they are a comfort blanket, and a reduction in overall use would show that increasing numbers of people are regaining the confidence to live a normal fulfilled life, without being scared that anyone else is some dirty germ-laden monster lying in wait to kill them.

I'm not scared. It's simply no bother to wear one for a little while longer. That's not hard to understand, surely?
 

Freightmaster

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One passenger did board, and then ask the driver "Do I still need to wear a mask?" to which the driver replied "Yes, the buses prefer you to continue wearing them until this is completely over." So, he put one on, and then sat down.
But the pandemic won't be "over" for several years, so will public transport/retail companies "prefer" that we wear masks indefinitely?! o_O


I'm not scared. It's simply no bother to wear one for a little while longer. That's not hard to understand, surely?
What's hard to understand is your definition of "a little while longer" - if you mean until all adults are able
to have their second jab, that sounds entirely reasonable to me, but some people want everyone to keep
wearing masks until the pandemic is 'over', as per my quote above, which is definitely not acceptable...





MARK
 

Ianno87

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What's hard to understand is your definition of "a little while longer" - if you mean until all adults are able
to have their second jab, that sounds entirely reasonable to me, but some people want everyone to keep
wearing masks until the pandemic is 'over', as per my quote above, which is definitely not acceptable...

At present, with 10s of people still dying a day and not all adults able to have been double vaccinated (including myself for another week and a bit), keeping a bit of cloth over my face that causes me no bother whatsoever doesn't seem unreasonable.
 

43066

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I hope it goes down too. It’s not normal to see covered faces, and it’s quite clear they’re well into chocolate teapot territory in terms of their effectiveness. For many they are a comfort blanket, and a reduction in overall use would show that increasing numbers of people are regaining the confidence to live a normal fulfilled life, without being scared that anyone else is some dirty germ-laden monster lying in wait to kill them.

However if people choose to wear them then on an individual level it’s fine by me.

Agree. Sadly I think the continued use shows how irrational many people are. I do accept that there will be those who are wearing coverings purely as a sop to those who remain terrified, rather than because they believe they actually work, although sadly I suspect the former are outnumbered by the latter. Neither are approaches I agree with personally, but each to their own. In my observation usage is steadily reducing. On the Northern Line train I was on a few minutes ago it was 50/50.

Something else that seems to be rearing its head as the network gets busier is people trying to prevent anyone sitting close to them by obstructing seats with luggage. I’ve witnessed several instances on the tube of people refusing to move bags, and one of our TMs was telling me this is increasingly common on our services (which have no reservations and lots of passengers with baggage). People will selfishly try to “reserve” groups of four seats with strategically placed suitcases. Her (correct) response to that is to ask the person to purchase three more tickets!
 

farleigh

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I think mask wearing is a bit silly but if it comforts people to wear one then what harm does it do anyone else?

The impact that disposable mask wearers have on the environment is troubling to some I think but they are doing nothing illegal so live and let live. I feel I am protecting others by not wearing one with respect to the environment.
 

43066

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be sure to write to Northern to ask that appropriate training be provided in respect of staff providing accurate information in announcements. Please let us know what they say.

Again this absolutely needs reporting, and I hope TPE stamp on this.

If I hear anything of this sort I will not be accepting it.

No idea about Northern, but where I am there seems to be a fair bit of confusion about the changes. The TOC’s policy is to encourage mask use, but again there’s no commonly agreed wording, with TMs seemingly left to choose their own (not their fault of course).

Most seem to be saying something along the lines of: “we request that you continue to wear masks and observe social distancing out of respect for fellow passengers”, but with no mention of exemptions, and an obvious implication that anyone not wearing is being disrespectful! In some ways it’s worse than a straightforward: “you are required to wear unless exempt”.
 

NorthOxonian

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I think mask wearing is a bit silly but if it comforts people to wear one then what harm does it do anyone else?
It comforts some people. It definitely doesn't comfort others - indeed I feel deeply uncomfortable around masked individuals. The thought of masks becoming normalised genuinely keeps me up at night and makes me very nervous indeed.
 

Richard Scott

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Ok so I have read the post correctly.

Its of course a personal choice to wear a face covering, personally I will on public transport for now certainly around the local area due to as i detailed above the cases around here are at horifically bad levels.
Would you please provide some good peer reviewed scientific evidence as to how mask wearing will help? Thanks
 

davews

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Being hard of hearing with hearing aids I welcome the time when I can hear what people are saying rather than the muffled noise you get through masks. Evidence they do anything whatsoever to reduce the spread of CV remains weak, until there is I will, as I have been doing since last summer, continue to go bare faced.
 

Smidster

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As I've previously mentioned, the problem is what I'm concerned(and others here will share my concern) about is if mask wearing on public transport and in shops, etc remains high, then the government ministers will notice this and think "Well it seems the vast majority of people are wearing masks. So let's reimpose mandatory face mask rules again.". We just can't have that happening again. By all means let it remain optional and I think over the coming months more people will become confident to ditch wearing them. But to reimpose mandatory face mask wearing all over again, PLEASE GOD NO!!!

However from my observations since Monday, it appears face mask wearing is slowly disappearing.

That logic seems flawed.

You should want most people to keep them on because if compliance were to fall and cases went up (as is very likely in stage 4) then it would be the easy thing to bring back mandatory masks.

As long as a high proportion of people are wearing them, and following the guidance, then there is no need for a mandate.
 

30907

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Well you can trot that out but I expect for many people in the high at risk groups its not that sample. I believe the Blood Cancer society has already taken issue with that report due to to small sample size.

The article below refers to my particular cancer

Blood Cancers Diminish Response to COVID-19 Vaccine
Belated thanks for posting that link, which is relevant to me.

That's fine but just to clear up that you would need an FFP2 or FFP3 to have the desired effect.
Thanks too - I thought it was only FFP3. FFP2 masks are the ones that are mandatory (or were last time I looked) on public transport in most of Germany.
 

Stigy

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Listening to Sadiq Khan on LBC earlier and it was suggested TfL may introduce Byelaws in order to enforce mask wearing on the tube (possibly buses too assuming it’s a TfL Byelaw). This in my opinion is the best way forward, assuming enforcement is how TfL wish to play it. I’m against mask wearing in general because of the (single) loophole (exemptions people don’t have to prove….). This would only work if people had to prove an exemption as far as I’m concerned, because all the time people simply have to say “I’m exempt”, you might as well not bother wasting your time with trying to enforce things.

Another thing to consider is if these are written in to Byelaws, just how long are TfL considering making them mandatory for?

LBC
 

westv

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Probably already been mentioned but anyway
If you have the vaccine then you are protected against serious harm from the virus. Therefore you will be safeer if coming into contact with an infected person. Everybody over 18 has been offered the vaccine and those who have accepted will be double jabbed soon.
Who am am I protecting by wearing a mask?
 

Richard Scott

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Probably already been mentioned but anyway
If you have the vaccine then you are protected against serious harm from the virus. Therefore you will be safeer if coming into contact with an infected person. Everybody over 18 has been offered the vaccine and those who have accepted will be double jabbed soon.
Who am am I protecting by wearing a mask?
No-one, I'm still waiting for those who are saying masks make a difference to post a link to a peer reviewed scientific paper giving evidence for effectiveness of masks.
 

Philip

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On Monday the guard on the LNWR train made an announcement about face coverings which I thought was very professional, unbiased and sensitive across a broad range. He firstly clearly stated that face coverings were no longer mandatory and that passengers weren't required to wear them, free to make their own choice. He then, however, went on to gently ask passengers to be mindful of their surroundings on the journey, and potentially to consider wearing a covering if the train became busy, out of consideration for other passengers.

I keep reading this line that the virus won't go away and whilst I think that this is probably true, it doesn't mean that we should throw all caution to the wind at this point, particularly with the current infection rates in this country.

I sometimes think about post-war Britain in relation to pandemic restrictions; the food rationing was a direct response to the money shortage brought on because of the wartime spending, in a way that the restrictions are a response to keeping infection rates under control. I don't think the current level of restrictions and guidance/enforcement of face coverings in some settings are as oppressive as what the years of rationing must have been like.
 
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greyman42

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Its of course a personal choice to wear a face covering, personally I will on public transport for now certainly around the local area due to as i detailed above the cases around here are at horifically bad levels.
What do you class as "horrific"?
 

The Ham

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No-one, I'm still waiting for those who are saying masks make a difference to post a link to a peer reviewed scientific paper giving evidence for effectiveness of masks.

The problem is with such a request (and I agree that masks are almost entirely useless once someone is vaccinated) is that to show a reasonable level of impact masks are tested in high risk settings for long periods of time. As such the level of benefit is going to be nearly zero.

However that doesn't mean that for shorter periods of time in lower risk settings that they aren't better. However the ability to create a study where this could be tested is nearly impossible for to the various range of variables.

As such type request will never be answered (with the exception of the high grade masks which the NHS have shown do work, although yet not peer reviewed).

As such, during the period before we were getting vaccinated it was worth trying wearing masks (even if the impact was small), unless there is a peer reviewed paper which shows that they are worse (which also is impossible to provide for the same reasons as above).

A steep increase in cases with masks isn't evidence unless there's evidence that it was no different without masks. As an example a x10 every 80 days may have been the same without masks but it may have been every 81 days without masks.
 

nedchester

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It comforts some people. It definitely doesn't comfort others - indeed I feel deeply uncomfortable around masked individuals. The thought of masks becoming normalised genuinely keeps me up at night and makes me very nervous indeed.
I think you may be in need of medical treatment to be honest.
 

Richard Scott

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I think you may be in need of medical treatment to be honest.
No, I feel the same way. I hate seeing the things and dislike pictures where people are wearing them. I don't need medical treatment I need normal life to return. It's those who keep this going that need to sort it out.
 

GALLANTON

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I don't see how seeing people wearing masks can cause someone stress and anxiety, it's no different from seeing someone wearing a hat.
 

Richard Scott

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I don't see how seeing people wearing masks can cause someone stress and anxiety, it's no different from seeing someone wearing a hat.
Wearing a hat is normal, wearing a mask isn't. Masks make people look sinister as you can't read their facial expression.
 

Freightmaster

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I don't see how seeing people wearing masks can cause someone stress and anxiety,
You honestly don't see that not being able to see people's faces/mouths/expressions can
be extremely disconcerting to those who rely on such visual cues on a day to day basis?


it's no different from seeing someone wearing a hat.
Really?? o_O

To me, the difference is that you don't go into a shop and see 99% of people wearing a hat
which obscures their face, plus a passive-aggressive note on the door stating that "hat wearing
is not required but please wear one if you can to protect others"





MARK
 

GALLANTON

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I don't see why you'd need to see everyone's face unless you are physically interacting with someone. It's just a bit of fabric that covers a part of your body, nothing else.

I don't know about anyone else on here but I don't go walking about looking at everyone's face to see their expression, instead, I walk about minding my own buisness.
 
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