Memories of Holborn Viaduct

[S&CLER]

Yes I do believe that prior to 1980 at least, very few trains coming from Lewisham called at Nunhead and Denmark Hill, now it seems more trains call at Denmark Hill these days, and a fair few skip Peckham Rye

I recall one morning catching a Nunhead train by mistake at Hither Green, when my normal commuting destination was New Cross. I can't recall if the Nunhead train was coming from the Dartford Loop or the Orpington line. Getting from Nunhead to New Cross was not easy.

 

[ls2270]

Wall of Death? Typo or nickname for that line? (don't know much about it, have never visited the Sutton-Epsom area either by road or rail...)

In 1985 this went to Victoria via the main line (Selhurst) - not Crystal Palace. In the opposite direction it was advertised in the timetable as 'West Sutton' but then actually continued to Wimbledon and on to Holborn. I remember 'revising' the 10-minute-interval suburban stoppers out of Victoria in preparation for a visit to Clapham Junction, so I knew what was coming when - and the pattern was xx02 'West Sutton' (actually Holborn), xx12 West Croydon, xx22 Epsom Downs, xx32 West Croydon, xx42 'West Sutton' (Holborn again), and xx52 Beckenham Junction - alternating between main line (02, 22 and 42) and Crystal Palace (12, 32, 52). As an aside you also had Dorkings at xx19 and xx49, IIRC which omitted Battersea Park and Wandsworth Common.

Wall of Death is a nickname for the steeply graded line between Sutton and West Sutton.

 

[steamybrian]

Wall of Death is a nickname for the steeply graded line between Sutton and West Sutton.

The line between Sutton and Wimbledon is known by local rail staff as the "Wall of Death" because of its "roller coaster" ride of short sharp gradients and curves.

 

[30907]

Wall of Death?

The very steep incline (?1:44) into Sutton off the Loop

In 1985 this went to Victoria via the main line (Selhurst) - not Crystal Palace. In the opposite direction it was advertised in the timetable as 'West Sutton' but then actually continued to Wimbledon and on to Holborn.

The routing after W Croydon varied over the years - Vic via CP, LB direct, Vic via Norbury, according to what was best use of stock. (Pre Thameslink the Carshalton route was not used by HV trains.)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The line between Sutton and Wimbledon is known by local rail staff as the "Wall of Death" because of its "roller coaster" ride of short sharp gradients and curves.

Anecdotally - the Wall of Death was sort of linked to the fairground attraction of a motor bike being driven round a sort of wooden tub , getting higher and higher without the rider falling off........

Anyway - a nom de plume that survived for many years ......always a challenge ,and I recall the winter of 198x when no-one would risk as a 4 car after the snow , - though an empty 12 car was sent round there to de-ice the con rail. The proper de-icer units were otherwise engaged on busier lines.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I can also add my name to the list of forum members who were on the last service train (the 1928 to Orpington) although there was an SEG railtour formed of 4CEP units that departed shortly afterwards.

Just how many of us were on that train?!

 

[nw1]

Thanks for clarifying the Wall of Death.The landscape looks pretty flat (at least until you hit the North Downs in the background) if you look SE from Wimbledon... would never have guessed so many steep gradients in that area. I imagined all the steep bits would be SE of Sutton/Epsom (i.e. the Epsom Downs line) - but I've never visited this area so it's all a bit of a blind spot.

Geographically perhaps an extension of the low hills that form Richmond Park and extend to roughly between Putney and Earlsfield?

 

[Taunton]

The particular "Wall of Death" always struck me as the departure west from Sutton, visible from the platforms there, suddenly downhill at about 1 in 40 then a sharp right hander out of view. Does it have a retaining wall on the outside as well? It's one of the newest London lines, built in the 1920s by the Southern Railway to see off the Underground at Morden being extended to Sutton, and shoehorned in between the houses, hence the alignment. Always an emu route, never had to be handled by locomotives. By the time it was built, motorcycle "wall of death" showground exhibitions dependent on centrifugal force would be well known.

 

[Welly]

Just how many of us were on that train?!

Buntings on the platform canopies for the last day?

 

[Cletus]

This link from google maps give an idea of the area.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Sutton, station at least, is on the chalk. The climb is more one out of the general area of the Wandle Valley onto the start of the chalk. The North Downs have a long dip slope from north to south and a shorter, much steeper scarp slope from the summit to the south. Explains the long cuttings on the Brighton line heading south and the much shorter ones on the way out of the tunnel.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Buntings on the platform canopies for the last day?

Yes, and detonators on the tracks for the final departure as well.

 

[nw1]

Sutton, station at least, is on the chalk. The climb is more one out of the general area of the Wandle Valley onto the start of the chalk. The North Downs have a long dip slope from north to south and a shorter, much steeper scarp slope from the summit to the south. Explains the long cuttings on the Brighton line heading south and the much shorter ones on e out of the tunnel.

Ah right, didn't realise that - that would explain it. Always imagined Sutton to be in the lowlands north of the chalk - shows how little (as in never) I have visited the area.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, and detonators on the tracks for the final departure as well.

Last dmu departure from North Woolwich, the Friday before the emu service started (1985?), was likewise. Must have woken up the neighbourhood!

Taunton shed used to do the same on New Years' Eve at midnight with all the year-end date-expired detonators, which conveniently had just become invalid a few seconds earlier!

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Ah right, didn't realise that - that would explain it. Always imagined Sutton to be in the lowlands north of the chalk - shows how little (as in never) I have visited the area.

Much of the borough is, and some of the north of the town as well. Your imagination was probably out by a few hundred metres at most, which, for somewhere you’ve never been, is quite a triumph.

 

[Mikey C]

My memories are that back then that the only trains from Dartford/Lewisham to London via Nunhead all went to Holborn Viaduct, and that the Victoria trains were a later addition which eventually replaced the HV/Blackfriars service? Though occasionally you still get a service from Blackfriars to Lewisham via Nunhead when there are engineering works affecting London Bridge or Charing Cross!

My memory of HV is of youthful stupidity, jumping on a moving EPB as it left the platform, and nearly losing a shoe which bizarrely came off as I entered the train, and had to be retrieved from the step before I closed the door

 

[30907]

My memories are that back then that the only trains from Dartford/Lewisham to London via Nunhead all went to Holborn Viaduct, and that the Victoria trains were a later addition which eventually replaced the HV/Blackfriars service?

Correct. The Vic trains didn't run until the late 70s(?) resignalling integrated the Atlantic Lines (the ex LBSC through Clapham High St) with the ex LCD lines - and it was some years before they began to load well.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Correct. The Vic trains didn't run until the late 70s(?) resignalling integrated the Atlantic Lines (the ex LBSC through Clapham High St) with the ex LCD lines - and it was some years before they began to load well.

As far as I’m aware there were no regular Victoria trains on the Bexleyheath line until 1990 when HV was demolished and replaced with City Thameslink, I’m fairly sure this was the case.

A mystery as to why The HV to Dartford service was never integrated with Thameslink originally, since the Catford trains were part of Thameslink initially.

 

[30907]

As far as I’m aware there were no regular Victoria trains on the Bexleyheath line until 1990 when HV was demolished and replaced with City Thameslink, I’m fairly sure this was the case.

Hadn't realised it was such a long gap, but you are right.

A mystery as to why The HV to Dartford service was never integrated with Thameslink originally, since the Catford trains were part of Thameslink initially.

Peak only service, not enough paths through the tunnel (wasn't Moorgate still open?) and probably not enough 319s anyway.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Hadn't realised it was such a long gap, but you are right.

Peak only service, not enough paths through the tunnel (wasn't Moorgate still open?) and probably not enough 319s anyway.

You’re probably right about The Bexleyheath service not being included at that stage, although they did plan extensions to Corby and Folkestone just before privatisation, and Moorgate was still open, it didn’t close until 2009 amazingly, but only served in the peaks by the early 1990s, most of the former Midland City services by then were through the core to the South.

 

[Mikey C]

As far as I’m aware there were no regular Victoria trains on the Bexleyheath line until 1990 when HV was demolished and replaced with City Thameslink, I’m fairly sure this was the case.

Yes, that fits in with my memories, though I vaguely recall that they still ran a few "Dartford" trains to Blackfriars after HV closed. Indeed wasn't there a plan to run trains to City Thameslink, I don't know if this happened

 

[Taunton]

I seem to recall there was agitation by Kings College Hospital, by Denmark Hill station, for the peak period service from the Bexleyheath lines. The Holborn trains long didn't stop at Denmark Hill, but when they did it was suddenly a substantial peak flow from the staff, and on closure of Holborn the service was retained and diverted to Victoria.

The story above about inadvertently being taken round from Bexleyheath etc to Holborn is not the only such one I have heard; with the normal split between Charing Cross and Cannon Street passengers commonly boarded the first one along, and changed at London Bridge if necessary.

 

[Mikey C]

I seem to recall there was agitation by Kings College Hospital, by Denmark Hill station, for the peak period service from the Bexleyheath lines. The Holborn trains long didn't stop at Denmark Hill, but when they did it was suddenly a substantial peak flow from the staff, and on closure of Holborn the service was retained and diverted to Victoria.

The story above about inadvertently being taken round from Bexleyheath etc to Holborn is not the only such one I have heard; with the normal split between Charing Cross and Cannon Street passengers commonly boarded the first one along, and changed at London Bridge if necessary.

A rare case where a hospital connection is major reason for providing a train service in London?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes, that fits in with my memories, though I vaguely recall that they still ran a few "Dartford" trains to Blackfriars after HV closed. Indeed wasn't there a plan to run trains to City Thameslink, I don't know if this happened

It was discussed running Thameslink trains to Dartford in the early days, but as @30907 said earlier there weren’t enough paths at the time, but the ambition was there.

Blackfriars is still used by Dartford trains when there’s engineering works, as a child seeing a train bound for Victoria and a nice change away from the usual Charing Cross and Cannon Street trains, but hearing a train bound for Blackfriars was positively foreign to me!

 

[nw1]

To add to what's been said, there were certainly Holborn Viaduct starters towards Chatham and Maidstone East in the 1980s during the peak. Perhaps two per route at approx. 40 min intervals, and the Chatham ones were all stations beyond Swanley. I think that the line had a 20 min interval peak service at that time, with the stoppers alternating Victoria/Holborn. May even have been a Canterbury East terminator from Holborn. They called HV-Blackfriars-Elephant and Castle and then fast to Bromley South, presumably via Catford. First class was available so presumably VEPs or possibly CEPs. (Never saw them, just noticed them in the timetable).

Later these started from Blackfriars - they were still running in the 90s. Not sure how long they continued, maybe until the recent Thameslink changes?

 

[frodshamfella]

My memories are that back then that the only trains from Dartford/Lewisham to London via Nunhead all went to Holborn Viaduct, and that the Victoria trains were a later addition which eventually replaced the HV/Blackfriars service? Though occasionally you still get a service from Blackfriars to Lewisham via Nunhead when there are engineering works affecting London Bridge or Charing Cross!

My memory of HV is of youthful stupidity, jumping on a moving EPB as it left the platform, and nearly losing a shoe which bizarrely came off as I entered the train, and had to be retrieved from the step before I closed the door

From Bexleyheath the few services that went that way, some were for HV but some did terminate or start at BF too. Victoria was much later and I think the HV services had stopped by then anyway.

 

[NorthKent1989]

To add to what's been said, there were certainly Holborn Viaduct starters towards Chatham and Maidstone East in the 1980s during the peak. Perhaps two per route at approx. 40 min intervals, and the Chatham ones were all stations beyond Swanley. I think that the line had a 20 min interval peak service at that time, with the stoppers alternating Victoria/Holborn. May even have been a Canterbury East terminator from Holborn. They called HV-Blackfriars-Elephant and Castle and then fast to Bromley South, presumably via Catford. First class was available so presumably VEPs or possibly CEPs. (Never saw them, just noticed them in the timetable).

Later these started from Blackfriars - they were still running in the 90s. Not sure how long they continued, maybe until the recent Thameslink changes?

I think so, as to my knowledge the only South Eastern services running now from Blackfriars is the Beckenham Junction service.

Soon there will be a Blackfriars to Ashford service via E&C, Denmark Hill, Bromley South, Swanley then I think all stations to Maidstone and Ashford operated by South Eastern in lieu of the proposed Ashford to Cambridge service which is now no longer set to start.

 

[Mikey C]

It was discussed running Thameslink trains to Dartford in the early days, but as @30907 said earlier there weren’t enough paths at the time, but the ambition was there.

Blackfriars is still used by Dartford trains when there’s engineering works, as a child seeing a train bound for Victoria and a nice change away from the usual Charing Cross and Cannon Street trains, but hearing a train bound for Blackfriars was positively foreign to me!

I didn't mean Thameslink trains, but a direct replacement for the HV terminators, but terminating at City Thameslink, then going into the sidings before returning

 

[NorthKent1989]

I didn't mean Thameslink trains, but a direct replacement for the HV terminators, but terminating at City Thameslink, then going into the sidings before returning

Ah sorry, my mistake, I don’t think so, I think the only South Eastern services that used City Thameslink post 1990 was the Beckenham shuttle via Penge East, that ran into City Thameslink then the sidings until the mid 2000s when The Beckenham shuttle became a Beckenham to Bedford peak service operated by FCC.

Im certain that an occasional Catford loop peak service used City Thameslink and the sidings too, but I don’t think any Bexleyheath service ran there.

 

[30907]

I think so, as to my knowledge the only South Eastern services running now from Blackfriars is the Beckenham Junction service.

Pre Covid there were peak services from/to the Maidstone and Gillingham lines, a service that has run since electrification (at least). They acquired an Elephant stop in the 80s IIRC, having previously run fast to Bromley South (give or take an odd suburban stop).