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Businesses in England that will still restrict entry (via face masks) after July 19th

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RPI

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You have no choice in your ethnic origin or skin colour. You do have a choice whether you wear a face mask (or visor)
You have no choice in whether you have a medical condition that would have made you exempt, but exemption is no longer relevant in England as face coverings are not mandated, some businesses are becoming a law to themselves, what if a business had a sign banning the wearing of a Hijab in their premises? I personally am not fond of them however I respect a Muslim womans right to choose to wear one or not wear one, where do we draw the line?
 
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43066

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No, because that is discrimination. The exemption easement in the requiring/guidance on the wearing of face coverings means this isn't discrimination. If you don't have a medical exemption and you enter a shop, pub or church for example which asks customers or worshippers to wear face coverings, then you should respect the wishes of the shopkeeper, landlord or priest and wear one. It is a step towards anarchy otherwise, particularly when people aren't abiding because they want to rebel.

The exemption “easement” as you put in the legal requirement to wear masks (when it was in place) never required a “medical exemption” at all. Neither was any evidence of an exemption required to be carried.
 

Philip

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People do not have a choice about how they feel, for example if they suffer from anxiety.

Once again, you make false equivalence arguments that are either disingenuous or based on fundamental misunderstandings.


That's an absurd claim.


People who attempt to force standard flimsy face coverings on others are going against someone else's wishes with the main purpose being to impose authoritarianism and wind others up.


This sort of attitude will only serve to make me and others push back against authoritarian measures even more. We do not consent to the fundamental changing of our society that some are attempting to impose on us and we will resist.


I hope they go bust quite frankly.

Your last paragraph pretty much sums up the point I am making. You are also mistaking authoritarianism with a desire to be cautious. Just because you don't think face coverings are effective doesn't mean to say others share the same view.
 

HST274

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That's an absurd claim.
|
|
\/
impose authoritarianism
authoritarian measures
.

wind others up.
Partially true for some who want to be in control, but often I like to be in control of a situation, doesn't make me the next Kim Jong Un

I hope they go bust quite frankly.
How is masks a topic over which people are wishing others ill? I don't necessarily agree with their stance and that is why I am allowed to not go into the shop. However she has given reasoning and you should in turn respond with reasoning. For example I am a remainer but I don't say 'I hope all brexiteers are locked up or deported and there lives fail because they have a different stance'. For that is what it is, a different stance.
why would anyone comply with such absurd behaviour?
Because I want a bed for the night and don't care whether I have to wear a piece of cloth however useless. If they are stopping exempt people then that's a different matter...
 

Yew

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Your last paragraph pretty much sums up the point I am making. You are also mistaking authoritarianism with a desire to be cautious. Just because you don't think face coverings are effective doesn't mean to say others share the same view.
Caution is only doing things that have a clear evidence base and cost benefit analysis.
 

yorkie

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Not sure what this means.
.


Partially true for some who want to be in control, but often I like to be in control of a situation, doesn't make me the next Kim Jong Un
Another false equivalence argument.

How is masks a topic over which people are wishing others ill? I don't necessarily agree with their stance and that is why I am allowed to not go into the shop.
It could be about anything really; any business that makes people so unwelcome doesn't deserve custom.

However she has given reasoning and you should in turn respond with reasoning.
What reasoning do you want me to come up with? As a customer if any supplier is being unreasonable and/or rude and/or onerous I will take my business elsewhere

For example I am a remainer but I don't say 'I hope all brexiteers are locked up or deported and there lives fail because they have a different stance'. For that is what it is, a different stance.
That's another false equivalence.

If any company wanted Brexit to happen despite the fact it would be bad for business they would deserve any loss of business; this would be an equivalent comparison.

Because I want a bed for the night and don't care whether I have to wear a piece of cloth however useless. If they are stopping exempt people then that's a different matter...
Everyone is now exempt in England whether you like it or not.

Your last paragraph pretty much sums up the point I am making.
Hour point makes no sense.

You are also mistaking authoritarianism with a desire to be cautious.
Nope; a desire to be cautious would be an individual choosing to wear an FFP3 mask.

Just because you don't think face coverings are effective doesn't mean to say others share the same view.
Standard face coverings are flimsy, loose fitting and do not protect against virus transmission.

Well fitted FFP3 masks are highly effective; you may choose to wear one if you are immunocompromised, distrusting of vaccines, or for any other reason. That would be your choice.
 
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Green tractor

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You have no choice in whether you have a medical condition that would have made you exempt, but exemption is no longer relevant in England as face coverings are not mandated, some businesses are becoming a law to themselves, what if a business had a sign banning the wearing of a Hijab in their premises? I personally am not fond of them however I respect a Muslim womans right to choose to wear one or not wear one, where do we draw the line?

When I were a lad you were not allowed in certain pubs and night clubs on a Saturday night if you had a t shirt, Jean's or trainers (or certain brands of shoes) we just wore pants and shirts so we could get in. It really wasn't a problem.
 

yorkie

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When I were a lad you were not allowed in certain pubs and night clubs on a Saturday night if you had a t shirt, Jean's or trainers (or certain brands of shoes) we just wore pants and shirts so we could get in. It really wasn't a problem.
Another false equivalence argument, however a any such business these days is unlikely to do good trade unless it's target audience is very exclusive. This isn't comparable to transportation, shops etc.
 

Green tractor

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Another false equivalence argument, however a any such business these days is unlikely to do good trade unless it's target audience is very exclusive. This isn't comparable to transportation, shops etc.
[/QUOTE]

It was about 15 years ago. Which isnt that long ago.
 
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Bantamzen

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I said a step towards anarchy. You are going against someone else's wishes and (at least in some cases) with the main purpose being to rebel. If someone wasn't 'medically exempt' but for whatever reason the wearing of a mask caused them stress, then I would have more sympathy; it is doing it to prove a point which I have a problem with.
It isn't even a step towards it, there is no legal mandate to wear masks. Businesses can request it but cannot enforce it, that is the long and short of it. It is not for you or them to determine if they might have had an exemption even if they were mandated. And I'm sure nobody wants your sympathy in all of this.
 

VauxhallandI

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Do we not have a right to travel? I've heard this statement being made in the past but I'm sure of the detail and if it is real.

Therefore are Heathrow et al permitted to bar people from air travel by not allowing them into the airport?

Like hospitals and GP's etc they can bleat all they like but they cannot refuse you healthcare after all we've already paid for it.
 

Green tractor

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[QUOTE="yorkie, post: 5281640, ]This sort of attitude will only serve to make me and others push back against authoritarian measures even more. We do not consent to the fundamental changing of our society that some are attempting to impose on us and we will resist.


I hope they go bust quite frankly.
[/QUOTE]


How are you pushing back? You keep saying this yet you have just been bashing in Germany, where face masks are mandatory, surely if you felt so strongly about face coverings you wouldn't of done that?
 

RPI

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When I were a lad you were not allowed in certain pubs and night clubs on a Saturday night if you had a t shirt, Jean's or trainers (or certain brands of shoes) we just wore pants and shirts so we could get in. It really wasn't a problem.
Yes I remember, in most peoples eyes it was seen as discrimination.... you've kind of proved my point quoting that
 

102 fan

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Also, this doesn't really work for hotels, as you're often rather reliant on them giving you a room and don't have a great deal of alternative.

As such, any 'gold-plating' that a hotel wants to do above and beyond the law, should be made very clear at the time of booking.

(In this specific case, Premier Inn's website explicitly says that masks are optional, though 'encouraged' in crowded places).

Was I talking about hotels?
 

Philip

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It isn't even a step towards it, there is no legal mandate to wear masks. Businesses can request it but cannot enforce it, that is the long and short of it. It is not for you or them to determine if they might have had an exemption even if they were mandated. And I'm sure nobody wants your sympathy in all of this.

Businesses can't enforce it but you still don't have much of a leg to stand on because the shopkeeper or pub landlord could still ask you to leave if you're not cooperating with their measures. It doesn't matter how effective or not effective you think the masks are, if you're entering someone else's premises and they think the masks are effective/a safety net etc and so they ask customers who aren't medically exempt to wear one when entering, then you should either comply or not go in.
 

HST274

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Another false equivalence argument
You yourself used the words authoritarian. North korea is authoritarian and therfore kim jong un is. You also called people who enforced wearing masks authoritarian, therefore comparing Kim jong un and mask enforcers is not false going off what you say. If you don't think enforcing masks is the same as oppressive ruling a country then don't use that word. If you are talking about another meaning of authoritarian then please specify.

What reasoning do you want me to come up with? As a customer if any supplier is being unreasonable and/or rude and/or onerous I will take my business
That is different from wishing someone to go bust. You should have said that earlier
It could be about anything really; any business that makes people so unwelcome doesn't deserve custom
Have you been there? If not how do you know lf it's welcome or not.
That's another false equivalence.

If any company wanted Brexit to happen despite the fact it would be bad for business they would deserve any loss of business; this would be an equivalent comparison
No. Your quote was
I hope they go bust quite frankly
Clearly because of what she did. An equivalence is:
@yorkie I hope you are demoted and your job makes you redundant because you are using the words authoritarian and wish to get rid of masks
Is that fair? No I don't think so just like I don't think it's fair for you to say ' I hope she goes bust because she thinks everyone in her shop should wear masks etc. ' (With the added affect on the community). To be clear I do not hold the above opinion
Not sure what this means.
An arrow. I'll be more clear next time.
 
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Green tractor

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It isn't even a step towards it, there is no legal mandate to wear masks. Businesses can request it but cannot enforce it, that is the long and short of it. It is not for you or them to determine if they might have had an exemption even if they were mandated. And I'm sure nobody wants your sympathy in all of this.
Yes I remember, in most peoples eyes it was seen as discrimination.... you've kind of proved my point quoting that

Most people just dressed accordingly, 95% of people you saw out on a Saturday night were dressed so they could get into clubs. Nobody saw it as discrimination, it was just the way it was. Stopping out beyond 23.30 when the pubs all chucked out wasn't mandatory.
 
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Essan

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If an antique shop has a sign on the door saying "no dogs" would you still enter it with your 3 boisterous labrador puppies and object when asked to take them outside?

If a bank has a sign on the door saying motorcycle helmets must be removed before entering, would you refuse and walk up to the counter wearing one with the visor down?

If a church has a sign on the door requesting those entering to refrain running about, throwing balls and making loud noises, would you go inside and play football with some friends whilst listen to Iron Maiden on a ghetto blaster?

I think these are all fair analogies?

And no, having to wear shoes and trousers rather than trainers and jeans to enter a nightclub was never seen as discrimination. We either abided by the dress code or went elsewhere.
 

Darandio

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We're comparing nightclubs with a dress code to (in some cases essential) establishments requiring masks now? Some people in this thread are barrel scraping to the extreme.
 

102 fan

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If an antique shop has a sign on the door saying "no dogs" would you still enter it with your 3 boisterous labrador puppies and object when asked to take them outside?

If a bank has a sign on the door saying motorcycle helmets must be removed before entering, would you refuse and walk up to the counter wearing one with the visor down?

If a church has a sign on the door requesting those entering to refrain running about, throwing balls and making loud noises, would you go inside and play football with some friends whilst listen to Iron Maiden on a ghetto blaster?

I think these are all fair analogies?

And no, having to wear shoes and trousers rather than trainers and jeans to enter a nightclub was never seen as discrimination. We either abided by the dress code or went elsewhere.


Fair analogies? What world are you on?
 

jumble

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Because I want a bed for the night and don't care whether I have to wear a piece of cloth however useless. If they are stopping exempt people then that's a different matter...
Did you read what I wrote or are do you really think it is reasonable for a business that takes my money on a non refundable stay and agrees one thing and then attempts to boss me about by mandating something else when I get to the hotel?
You must be a dishonest tradesmans dream
Suppose I was law abiding and left my mask at home What then?
 
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Bantamzen

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Businesses can't enforce it but you still don't have much of a leg to stand on because the shopkeeper or pub landlord could still ask you to leave if you're not cooperating with their measures. It doesn't matter how effective or not effective you think the masks are, if you're entering someone else's premises and they think the masks are effective/a safety net etc and so they ask customers who aren't medically exempt to wear one when entering, then you should either comply or not go in.
You can see the massive loophole here can't you....???

Most people just dressed accordingly, 95% of people you saw out on a Saturday night were dressed do they could get into clubs. Nobody saw it as discrimination, it was just the way it was. Stopping out beyond 23.30 when the pubs all chucked out wasn't mandatory.
I love this naive idea that all clubs had a dress code, so quaint but still made of straw.
 

Yew

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When I were a lad you were not allowed in certain pubs and night clubs on a Saturday night if you had a t shirt, Jean's or trainers (or certain brands of shoes) we just wore pants and shirts so we could get in. It really wasn't a problem.
Interesting that most places with those sorts of rules have either changed them or gone out out business...
 

Essan

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Fair analogies? What world are you on?

The real world. Rather than one where I demand I can do whatever I want, wherever I want,in other people's properties and businesses, and no-one should be able to reasonably request that I do otherwise.

I love this naive idea that all clubs had a dress code, so quaint but still made of straw.

Well, it was true where I lived in the 80s/90s .....

I would assume most such places still do. Well, anywhere reputable, anyway.
 
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Bantamzen

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Well, it was true where I lived in the 80s/90s .....

I would assume most such places still do. Well, anywhere reputable, anyway.
It was true of some from that era, but far from all. And it was the ones that wanted to look reputable, they were often the worst places to go if you wanted to avoid trouble. But all that is beside the point, dress codes were am attempt to project image, not pretend to "save lives".
 

VauxhallandI

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It was true of some from that era, but far from all. And it was the ones that wanted to look reputable, they were often the worst places to go if you wanted to avoid trouble. But all that is beside the point, dress codes were am attempt to project image, not pretend to "save lives".
It was mainly provincial little clubs; if you went to London there tended to be none of that rubbish.

I went in with just my socks on one night. another night I managed to convince the bouncer that they didn't make casual shoes in my size.
 

Bikeman78

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I assumed the sign was out-of-date, given the same signs were on every Premier Inn I stayed at earlier in the year when the law was still in place. The person checking me in had a very perfunctory attempt at mask wearing, it didn't cover her nose or indeed much of her mouth.
None of the Premier Inns that I've visited recently have had any interest in masks. None of the staff have been wearing them. Self service breakfast is back, plastic screens between tables have gone.
 

VauxhallandI

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Neither of the Travelodge's I have stayed in over the last two weeks have given any regard to them either.
 

bengley

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I do not carry a red hat around with me.

If a business has an arbitrary rule which requires me to wear a red hat in order to enter, I will not be able to comply with the rule because I do not carry a red hat around with me.

Given that it is now no longer a legal requirement to wear a mask in any setting, why do businesses expect that people are carrying masks around with them? I certainly don't carry one 'just in case'.
 
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