19th July Lockdown Easing - Observations and Compliance

[NorthKent1989]

But how do you decide who does and doesnt get treatment, which is what it boils down to in the end. Do we stop cancer treatment? Not treat the unvaccinated, those over a certain age?

You talk about the NHS not being worth giving up our lives for, but over 100,000 have lost their lives, most of us have just been massively inconvenienced.

What I dont get about many people on this forum is that of you dont share their zero rules now line, you are instantly a 'lockavist' and want permanent restrictions as if you enjoy that. It is not black and white, we have just lived through the biggest domestic crisis in most of our lifetimes.

You keep asking the same question and expecting a different answer and I’ve said it time and time again, the NHS has to get on with it now, majority of the population has been vaccinated which is supposed to stop hospital admissions therefore the NHS should be able to cope.

Another lockdown is completely out of the question at this point, either you trust the vaccine to do its job or you don’t.

The media have hyped up Covid as being this apocalyptic crisis to the point of hysteria.

How long do you propose we give up our lives for for this virus? How do expect people with more serious issues than Covid to be put on the back burner again? When do you think we should just learn to live with Covid?

The answer to the last question is we have to get on with it now, Covid is becoming a seasonal virus, it is now up to the individual how they act but let’s not impose harmful restrictions and lockdowns ever again.

We need to prioritise mental health and other ailments that aren’t Covid again.

 

[bramling]

My (railway) workplace has also had issues with what boils down to the ‘well I don’t want to catch covid’ excuse and it has become seriously heated at times. There is a fundamental and I think deliberate refusal to understand than coronavirus will be here forever, everybody will catch it many times during their lives, and more specifically for those of us working in the railway, if even our workforce steadfastly refuses to return to work then there will be a hell of a lot less of us employed than there was before. If I was in charge I would send the forthcoming redundancy notices first to people who refuse to use the service we gain our livelihoods from other people paying money to use

The politicians can partly be blamed for this, as their lack of strong leadership has allowed some people to maintain a false belief on this.

"I don't want to catch Covid" is, unfortunately, utterly unrealistic at this point.

 

[Eyersey468]

The politicians can partly be blamed for this, as their lack of strong leadership has allowed some people to maintain a false belief on this.

"I don't want to catch Covid" is, unfortunately, utterly unrealistic at this point.

It's not just the politicians lack of strong leadership it's also the messaging from both the government and the media, they deliberately frightened people to make them comply with what they wanted.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The politicians can partly be blamed for this, as their lack of strong leadership has allowed some people to maintain a false belief on this.

"I don't want to catch Covid" is, unfortunately, utterly unrealistic at this point.

The politicians and the media have played a massive role in creating this fear.

And as you say it’s unrealistic to have the attitude of not wanting Covid because everyone has had it at some point.

Another thing people have to get into their heads is that not everyone who has Covid is hospitalised, the majority of people who’ve had it have very mild symptoms and don’t need the hospital at all, ergo there’s no need to worry about pressuring the NHS.

It's not just the politicians lack of strong leadership it's also the messaging from both the government and the media, they deliberately frightened people to make them comply with what they wanted.

It’s disgusting how both institutions have behaved throughout this period, only showing a slanted one sided view on this.

 

[Eyersey468]

The politicians and the media have played a massive role in creating this fear.

And as you say it’s unrealistic to have the attitude of not wanting Covid because everyone has had it at some point.

Another thing people have to get into their heads is that not everyone who has Covid is hospitalised, the majority of people who’ve had it have very mild symptoms and don’t need the hospital at all, ergo there’s no need to worry about pressuring the NHS.



It’s disgusting how both institutions have behaved throughout this period, only showing a slanted one sided view on this.

I agree the behaviour of both government and the media has been disgusting

 

[Meole]

There is a strong economic incentive in keeping people from foreign holidays and thus spending at home which appears to be national policy unfortunately for the travel industry.

 

[43066]

Building NHS capacity can not happen in a matter of months, we just do not know what the situation will be this winter. Another factor to take into consideration is that NHS capacity will be higher due to vaccinated staff not having to self isolate when they have been in contact with a case, I was only in favour of the non economically damaging restrictions remaining just as a sensible precaution until spring. I remember how many times we were told that foot and mouth disease was under control etc when it was far from the truth.

With the amount of money that has been thrown around over the last eighteen months, I’d suggest a failure to build meaningful capacity points to a fundamental issue with the NHS in terms of competence and structure. Rather than banging pots and fawning, people should be getting very angry, asking why the health service is basically unfit for purpose, and demanding change.

But if the NHS can't cope, what should we do? How do we deicide who gets treatment, because that is what it boils down to if you have an overwhelming number of people in hospital with covid.

If it comes down to it, prioritise treatment according to quality life years left (which already happens). This is a minor virus for most; vast majority of the 130,000 or so people who’ve died were near the end of their natural lifespans (average age of death is still over 80 AIUI).

I do think we live in such a pampered and “safe” society that many adults cannot accept their own mortality, or the sad fact that a lot of people are going to die of Covid *whatever* we do. That’s just the reality of what happens in a pandemic, and this is a relatively benign one compared to Spanish flu, for example.

 

[ExRes]

I agree the behaviour of both government and the media has been disgusting

But let's not ignore the starring role played by bloggers, vloggers and scaremongering internet 'experts' who have done nothing but peddle their own biased views from day one, I agree wholeheartedly that politicians, from all sides let's not forget, and the media have been appalling with their behaviour but does anybody come out of this with any credit?

 

[Green tractor]

How do expect people with more serious issues than Covid to be put on the back burner again?

We need to prioritise mental health and other ailments that aren’t Covid again.

So are you suggesting we should stop treating covid instead then if it comes to it?

With the amount of money that has been thrown around over the last eighteen months, I’d suggest a failure to build meaningful capacity points to a fundamental issue with the NHS in terms of competence and structure. Rather than banging pots and fawning, people should be getting very angry, asking why the health service is basically unfit for purpose, and demanding change.

You cant train doctors and nurses in a few months, unless you know different?

But let's not ignore the starring role played by bloggers, vloggers and scaremongering internet 'experts' who have done nothing but peddle their own biased views from day one, I agree wholeheartedly that politicians, from all sides let's not forget, and the media have been appalling with their behaviour but does anybody come out of this with any credit?

There are plenty of these on both sides of the debate, look at the anti vax brigade and others some of whom are scientists.

 

[bramling]

I do think we live in such a pampered and “safe” society that many adults cannot accept their own mortality

This I think is a fundamental point. Compare with how some people get very shirty whenever the topic of wills comes up, which I always find extremely selfish when a partner or parent refuses to broach the subject - I can think of quite a few people in that position, including an extreme case where a father and son lost contact because of it. I actively want my loved ones not to be left in the lurch should something unforeseen happen to me, and I really don't understand why anyone would shy away from the subject, but lots of people do.

I think it's beyond selfish to lumber a loved one with a more-difficult-than-necessary probate experience simply because someone doesn't want to think about their own mortality.

It's not just the politicians lack of strong leadership it's also the messaging from both the government and the media, they deliberately frightened people to make them comply with what they wanted.

Completely agree, though I place the lion's share on the politicians as they are supposed to be the ones leading this. This includes the official opposition too, who have also been worse than useless. Boris Johnson has to be the most ghastly prime minister in living memory.

The media have also been absolutely dire, but sadly that's something we've come to expect over the years.

 

[43066]

You cant train doctors and nurses in a few months, unless you know different?

In a national emergency when billions have been thrown around with abandon, solutions could have been found: offering nurses from abroad two year contracts, paying £50k + free accommodation, and staffing the “nightingale hospitals” with these, for example. That’s certainly no more ludicrous than the government paying millions £30k literally to do nothing.

You don’t seem to be offering any actual solutions either, other than continuing with (demonstrably ineffective) restrictions to “be cautious”.

I’ll ask again: are you in favour of annual restrictions on society to prevent thousands of flu deaths every winter? I’d suggest not because (like most of us) you probably accept that flu is predominantly a disease of the elderly and infirm, and a vaccine if available (albeit not as effective as the Covid vaccine). This is how Covid now needs to be viewed.

 

[philosopher]

But if the NHS can't cope, what should we do? How do we deicide who gets treatment, because that is what it boils down to if you have an overwhelming number of people in hospital with covid.

Advise those over 70 or with underlying health conditions to avoid crowded places or other locations where they are at greater risk of catching Covid. Also those visiting those over 70 or with underlying health conditions should be advised to take lateral flows tests before visiting.

 

[Cdd89]

There is a strong economic incentive in keeping people from foreign holidays and thus spending at home which appears to be national policy unfortunately for the travel industry.

I've heard this plenty, but there's a countervailing economic incentive to allowing and promoting inbound international tourism. In fact given that such arrivals are deep-pocketed Americans, the economic incentive is arguably even stronger!

(Of course the best system, from the government's perspective, is one that allowed international tourists in but didn't allow people who live here out. And we had that, briefly, for a bit over a month from late March...)

 

[Green tractor]

Advise those over 70 or with underlying health conditions to avoid crowded places or other locations where they are at greater risk of catching Covid. Also those visiting those over 70 or with underlying health conditions should be advised to take lateral flows tests before visiting.

So basically lock yourselves away and make big changes to your life because I don't want to make any short term changes whatsoever? Lateral flow tests might be a partial solution though, although not terribly accurate from what I understand (they only work if you have a high viral load) they may be useful.

 

[bramling]

So basically lock yourselves away and make big changes to your life because I don't want to make any short term changes whatsoever?

Or, to put it a different way, "I've lived a fully fulfilled life up to my old age, but I wish to deny this to today's younger generation so I don't have to make any lifestyle changes".

There's two sides to every story.

(To be fair, I'm not sure it's the elderly people screaming for this - my experience is most wish to make the most of whatever time they have left. It seems to be more the 30-somethings from the home counties who have got fed up with commuting claiming to represent them).

 

[Green tractor]

In a national emergency when billions have been thrown around with abandon, solutions could have been found: offering nurses from abroad two year contracts, paying £50k + free accommodation, and staffing the “nightingale hospitals” with these, for example. That’s certainly no more ludicrous than the government paying millions £30k literally to do nothing.

You don’t seem to be offering any actual solutions either, other than continuing with (demonstrably ineffective) restrictions to “be cautious”.

I’ll ask again: are you in favour of annual restrictions on society to prevent thousands of flu deaths every winter? I’d suggest not because (like most of us) you probably accept that flu is predominantly a disease of the elderly and infirm, and a vaccine if available (albeit not as effective as the Covid vaccine). This is how Covid now needs to be viewed.

Getting nurses from abroad would make the problem worse in other countries, it is a very selfish way of going about things.

I am not in favour of regular annual restrictions, but we don't know what is going to happen this winter. Welding your self to an ideology is not good for making good decisions.

 

[Yew]

we don't know what is going to happen this winter.

A statement that has been accurate for every winter in history.


If you believe that we should be doing something this, you must make the case that it is reasonably likely to be needed, and has clear evidence of effectiveness. I could believe that the moon is going to explode on Christmas Day, but unless I can prove that it will happen, I doubt we'll be building large numbers of bomb shelters.

 

[43066]

Getting nurses from abroad would make the problem worse in other countries, it is a very selfish way of going about things.

So there *are* solutions, you just don’t happen to like them (and foreign nationals have been the backbone of the NHS for generations, so why is it suddenly an issue?).

If it comes down to it, the government of this country should be prioritising the welfare of its own citizens. That’s just the way the world works I’m afraid.

What’s more “selfish” is the NHS essentially closing down for long periods and treating only Covid, and apparently expecting, as some do, the whole of society to be curtailed to protect a tiny minority of high risk individuals.

I am not in favour of regular annual restrictions, but we don't know what is going to happen this winter. Welding your self to an ideology is not good for making good decisions.

If you’re not in favour of annual restrictions, how do you respond to the “if not now, when?” argument? As @Domh245 summed up very well above, if restrictions are justifiable now they will always be justifiable.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So are you suggesting we should stop treating covid instead then if it comes to it?

That’s not what I said I said that we should be focusing on more pressing ailments, Covid isn’t the country’s biggest killer, Cancer and heart disease rank much higher than Covid and are more deadly, why should Covid be prioritised?

 

[greyman42]

Another thing which gets my back up are the ones calling for restrictions so they can get out of returning to their substantive workplace.

This is true and they make a lot of noise about it. One of the problems is that the government set a poor example with the return to the workplace of their own departments.

Likewise there's people who still cling to the notion of "I don't want to catch Covid" and seem to think they can somehow dodge it forever

This seems a strange attitude towards a virus that is unlikely to do them any long term harm. Do these people think the same regarding flu?

 

[Green tractor]

So there *are* solutions, you just don’t happen to like them (and foreign nationals have been the backbone of the NHS for generations, so why is it suddenly an issue?).

Having lockdowns is a solution too, which non of us like.

If you’re not in favour of annual restrictions, how do you respond to the “if not now, when?” argument? As @Domh245 summed up very well above, if restrictions are justifiable now they will always be justifiable.

I agree with the if not now when lifting of most restrictions that happened in July. But completely ruling things out when we don't know what is going to happen isn't an option either.

That’s not what I said I said that we should be focusing on more pressing ailments, Covid isn’t the country’s biggest killer, Cancer and heart disease rank much higher than Covid and are more deadly, why should Covid be prioritised?

It is about finding the right balance, it is not a binary choice.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It is about finding the right balance, it is not a binary choice.

I think the last 18 months has shown A complete lack of balance in favour of Covid.

 

[Eyersey468]

I think the last 18 months has shown A complete lack of balance in favour of Covid.

I agree completely. It has seemed like only Covid has mattered and to hell with everything else

But let's not ignore the starring role played by bloggers, vloggers and scaremongering internet 'experts' who have done nothing but peddle their own biased views from day one, I agree wholeheartedly that politicians, from all sides let's not forget, and the media have been appalling with their behaviour but does anybody come out of this with any credit?

No I agree we shouldn't ignore those either.

 

[43066]

Having lockdowns is a solution too, which non of us like

Lockdowns aren’t a solution in their own right, they’re a method of kicking the can down the road and delaying the inevitable. They’re also completely economically unsustainable and come with appalling economic and social costs.

I agree with the if not now when lifting of most restrictions that happened in July. But completely ruling things out when we don't know what is going to happen isn't an option either.

I’m glad you agree with that, albeit you have also said you are in favour of certain ineffective restrictions being retained over the winter “just in case”, despite the fact we are now in about the best position we ever can be in terms of vaccine coverage, so I don’t really understand your overall position.

 

[bramling]

Very low mask use on LU today. This afternoon it was down to about 20% from my observations.

Pleasing to see an increased and increasing number of people are showing Khan where to go on this.

 

[TPO]

With the amount of money that has been thrown around over the last eighteen months, I’d suggest a failure to build meaningful capacity points to a fundamental issue with the NHS in terms of competence and structure. Rather than banging pots and fawning, people should be getting very angry, asking why the health service is basically unfit for purpose, and demanding change.



If it comes down to it, prioritise treatment according to quality life years left (which already happens). This is a minor virus for most; vast majority of the 130,000 or so people who’ve died were near the end of their natural lifespans (average age of death is still over 80 AIUI).

I do think we live in such a pampered and “safe” society that many adults cannot accept their own mortality, or the sad fact that a lot of people are going to die of Covid *whatever* we do. That’s just the reality of what happens in a pandemic, and this is a relatively benign one compared to Spanish flu, for example.

That’s not what I said I said that we should be focusing on more pressing ailments, Covid isn’t the country’s biggest killer, Cancer and heart disease rank much higher than Covid and are more deadly, why should Covid be prioritised?

As @43066 notes, the fact is that the NHS has always prioritised care, whether it's openly admitted or not.

Resources are always limited, which is why there are NICE guidelines on which new expensive treatments are provided by the NHS. There are set criteria basically using value of life-years.

So the COVID situation can and should be treated like any other medical condition. (I suspect if it were we'd find that the amount spent on COVID- which is most people is a mild illness- far outweighs the "usual" threshold for life-adjusted value of a treatment).

One problem is that the "worried well" in professional white-collar jobs will not face the COVID risk level reality. (Not just on that issue either). Other people have swallowed the scare stories the same way they do with stuff like nuclear power.

Society has also become highly dependent, reliant on the NHS to "make them better" the way a young child relies on parents to do so. When I was a youngster, we treated much more at home instead of going to A&E for the slightest suggestion of an ailment- but then we were also much closer to the days of endemic nasty childhood diseases like measles, mumps, whooping cought and grandparents remembered scarlet fever, polio, smallpox, tuberculosis etc. So there was a much better understanding of what a "mild illness" actually is (basically you might feel like s**t for a week or so but a week in bed and a bit of convalescence afterwards will sort it without outside medical intervention).

The NHS has in some ways become a victim of its own success in eliminating many diseases and being exceptionally good at saving lives after accidents; but the NHS is now like a cult and so it's time for it to be scrapped and replaced with a modern insurance-based system of a similar type to those in the EU or Australia/New Zealand.

TPO

 

[yorkie]

Very low mask use on LU today. This afternoon it was down to about 20% from my observations.

Pleasing to see an increased and increasing number of people are showing Khan where to go on this.

That's good to hear; it's been a lot slower to come down on LU due to the aggressive TfL messaging.

My local supermarket now has most staff unmasked, with very few staff masked. Customers are still mixed but the majority do appear to be unmasked now. I had expected it to happen earlier than it did, but at least it's finally happening

 

[jumble]

Notionally yes, but there is no penalty for not wearing one save being told to either put one on or leave the network; as there is no enforcement, there is no effective requirement.

Just to note it isn’t a byelaw. Byelaws require a 28 day consultation and the consent of the Secretary of State, the former of which has not been done and the latter of which will not be given.

In Fridays Standard it says that the government have turned down Sadiq Kahn's desire to put compulsory mask wearing into bylaws
Quite why the fool ever imagined that the government having removed all legal obligation to wear masks would allow him to reintroduce one is anyone guess
The 400 or so enforcement officers employed by TFL do not discuss mask wearing with people in any event.

 

[big_rig]

In Fridays Standard it says that the government have turned down Sadiq Kahn's desire to put compulsory mask wearing into bylaws
Quite why the fool ever imagined that the government having removed all legal obligation to wear masks would allow him to reintroduce one is anyone guess
The 400 or so enforcement officers employed by TFL do not discuss mask wearing with people in any event.

That’s good to know. The only thing I see them discussing on my commute is the weather or football or whatever it is they talk about with each other; I have literally never seen them do anything else except chit chat between themselves in a hundred or so journeys since their introduction

 

[Hadders]

In London yesterday (Saturday) the Victoria Lime was very busy. I travelled from Euston to Finsbury Park around 18:30 and it was proper in your armpit loading as far as Kings Cross. Not many masks though.

I did note a number of PSCOs stood at the top of the Euston main entrance escalators and at the gateline trying to look menacing but they weren't challenging anyone.