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Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

Mikey C

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700s have been designed for fast boarding and alighting with very high standing loads, and they do that well.

You could have a very similar thing by removing the third seat on the 3 side in a 720. Does anyone know if the cantilever support extends under the third seat? It's hard to see for certain from photos online but it doesn't look like it does. If not this might potentially be a relatively easy job, as was done on e.g. Merseyrail 507/508s in the 90s.

If you did that (and removed the tip-ups) a 5-car would cope better with a standing load, and thus some trains could be shortened, saving costs.
The 700s need fast boarding and alighting because they go through the Thameslink core, with a really intensive frequency, and large numbers of people getting on and off at several stations. Standard commuter routes don't really have this issue
 
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ScotGG

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Always wondered why 465/466 Networkers never had rows of three removed.

It would take ages getting on and off not helped by the seats.

They also pass through routes with intensive stopping patterns.

The 707s will help, but they'll displace just a fraction. I guess the hope is passengers don't return before all 465/466 are scrapped.

Crazy to repeat that mistake on new 720s though.
 

hwl

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Always wondered why 465/466 Networkers never had rows of three removed.

It would take ages getting on and off not helped by the seats.

They also pass through routes with intensive stopping patterns.

The 707s will help, but they'll displace just a fraction. I guess the hope is passengers don't return before all 465/466 are scrapped.

Crazy to repeat that mistake on new 720s though.
3+2 is very bad if there is high churn at some station on route e.g. Stratford and Tottenham Hale so it will be interesting to see what performance is like there with higher passenger numbers. GA may have been betting on fewer such stations on their routes causing fewer issues for them than other operators. (The LO 710s provide a nice counter example to this thinking)

465/466:
a) some equipment under seats in places
b) removing the third seat allows far more passengers overall so the suspension need modifying to take the higher max passenger mass.
 

Ianno87

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Are there any weekend working of the 720s on the WA routes?
20210828_205053.jpg

Yes, this one at Cambridge last night (I think the 1928 ex-Liverpool Street).

Image shows a Class 720 in darkness at Cambridge.
 

JonathanH

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You won't attract discretionary travel with poor comfort levels.
Maybe - but as you yourself have written in threads about 350/2s, there is a certain attraction of bays of six for families if they can get one to themselves and I would expect the 720s to be fairly popular in this regard.
 

Bletchleyite

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Maybe - but as you yourself have written in threads about 350/2s, there is a certain attraction of bays of six for families if they can get one to themselves and I would expect the 720s to be fairly popular in this regard.

Yes, true. However, the non-bay pitch of the 720 appears very tight which precludes laptop use, so it'll be less attractive for anyone wanting to work during their journey. I don't actually mind using a laptop on my knee in a "3 side" bay on a 350/2 because the spacing is really very generous provided nobody is in the middle.

Taking a couple of rows out and re-spacing on the 2 side might solve that reasonably well.
 

47421

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Both WA diagrams (summary below for ease of reference) were 720s this AM. I went in on 0747 Camb LivSt which was quiet and at rear no one had to share any row of seats.

0558 LivSt Camb
0747 Camb LivSt
1643 LivSt Camb
1820 Camb LivSt
1958 LivSt Camb
2129 Camb CN
2153 CN LivSt
2328 LivSt Camb

0531 Camb Stratford
0649 SRA BXB
0730 BXB LivSt
0812 LivSt - HE
0909 He - LivSt
1012 / 1109 / 1212 / 1309 / 1412 / 1509 / etc 2309 HE - LivSt
 

Alfie1014

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Reported elsewhere a third diagram should have started today, 07:29 Ely to Liv St then 09:28 Liv St to Camb N and then every 3.5 hours on a repeating cycle back to Liv St.
 

Jturner98

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I must say I’m surprised that the 720s have ventured onto the West Anglia side. I thought the priority was to replace all the non PRM 321s on the Great Eastern side first. As far as I know everything on the WA side is PRM compliant.
 

hwl

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I must say I’m surprised that the 720s have ventured onto the West Anglia side. I thought the priority was to replace all the non PRM 321s on the Great Eastern side first. As far as I know everything on the WA side is PRM compliant.
Once you have trained the the West Anglia side DMs/DIs for 720s, roll out on the West Anglia side won't have much of an impact on GEML roll out as the majority of units have been completed and delivered, not running those units in service to find additional problems will cause more issues in the long run (especially location specific software faults)
 
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dk1

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I must say I’m surprised that the 720s have ventured onto the West Anglia side. I thought the priority was to replace all the non PRM 321s on the Great Eastern side first. As far as I know everything on the WA side is PRM compliant.
I must admit their debut on the West was earlier than I expected but with over 100 drivers already trained on them, introduction would need to start otherwise they are going to end up possibly needing refreshers. As long as anything non-PRM compliant has a PRM compliant unit attached then they are fine to run on the East in the meantime.
 

Astro_Orbiter

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From what I've heard there already has been refreshers taking place lol, was the same with the stadlers too apparently.
Heard January mentioned as when the 745's will leave West Anglia, so either that will mean 379's covering stansteds, or unmodified 720's in 10 car formations, either way it'll need a decent amount of 720's operating on the west before then.
Has anybody seen how the 5 car 720's are getting on with peak hour Hertford services? I bet they're mighty busy.
 

dk1

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From what I've heard there already has been refreshers taking place lol, was the same with the stadlers too apparently.
Heard January mentioned as when the 745's will leave West Anglia, so either that will mean 379's covering stansteds, or unmodified 720's in 10 car formations, either way it'll need a decent amount of 720's operating on the west before then.
Has anybody seen how the 5 car 720's are getting on with peak hour Hertford services? I bet they're mighty busy.
No plans for the Stansted Express to return to full frequency until May at the earliest either so not so many units needed.
 

Astro_Orbiter

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I wouldn't be surprised if it was sooner than that, stanex is getting very busy at peak flight/commuting times at the moment, and its only going to continue to rise.
 

Bikeman78

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From what I've heard there already has been refreshers taking place lol, was the same with the stadlers too apparently.
Heard January mentioned as when the 745's will leave West Anglia, so either that will mean 379's covering stansteds, or unmodified 720's in 10 car formations, either way it'll need a decent amount of 720's operating on the west before then.
Has anybody seen how the 5 car 720's are getting on with peak hour Hertford services? I bet they're mighty busy.
I've not seen it first hand but there is footage on Youtube of the 1612 Hertford on the first day. Most seats taken with some standing. Probably worse this week.

If the 745s switch to the GEML then some 720s could move the other way. Plus they have the 317s as a back up.
 
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Astro_Orbiter

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Yes true, the works to accommodate 10 car trains on West Anglia can't come soon enough, even though I seriously doubt how successful it will be given a third of the train won't even be in most platforms
 

JonathanH

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I must say I’m surprised that the 720s have ventured onto the West Anglia side. I thought the priority was to replace all the non PRM 321s on the Great Eastern side first. As far as I know everything on the WA side is PRM compliant.
On the other hand one 720 displaces two 317s so must reduce maintenance needs somewhat.
 

Bikeman78

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Yes true, the works to accommodate 10 car trains on West Anglia can't come soon enough, even though I seriously doubt how successful it will be given a third of the train won't even be in most platforms
I'm told that 10 cars can't use platforms 11 and 12 at Stratford so the only possible routes are Cambridge and Stansted. Also they cannot terminate in the loops at Broxbourne. Currently those peak trains are formed off Cambridge trains. They'll have to do a rewrite on the unit diagrams. Looking at RTT for next week they look similar to now.
 

Astro_Orbiter

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Some of the peak broxbournes are Hertfords before and after the peak too, but yes you're right, 10/12 cars can't terminate at 11/12 at Stratford, or stop at all at the back platforms at Broxbourne. Also wouldn't be able to use 10 cars on Meridian Water trains as that's an 8 car bay on the LVR.
Honestly I think it's mad that it seems mostly current 8 car diagrams will be replaced by 5 car 720, maybe similar seats but on Hertfords in the peak they'll be absolutely rammed
 

Shwam3

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Yes but the platform isn't, it's not been agreed as far as I know for a train to start beyond the platform like that.
Starting with the front off is already in use elsewhere on the GA network for 720s (and 755s), Meridian Water will be no different.
 

Railperf

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The aisles on 720's seem way too narrow. A great way of cramming more 'seats' in , but very rare do you see the 3-seat sections fully occupied, people seemed to prefer to stand than be squashed in between 2 other people.
 

Bletchleyite

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The aisles on 720's seem way too narrow. A great way of cramming more 'seats' in , but very rare do you see the 3-seat sections fully occupied, people seemed to prefer to stand than be squashed in between 2 other people.

If commuter levels don't increase and the structure allows for it, removing the third seat for a 700-style wide aisle would make a lot of sense.
 

47421

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Starting with the front off is already in use elsewhere on the GA network for 720s (and 755s), Meridian Water will be no different.
yes but is far from ideal as at Northumberland Park and Tott Hale will be the rear off end of platform as signals at those stations are at end of platform - so most passengers from Meridan Water will have to walk through train to get off. Anyway it is academic until platforms 10/11 at Stratford can accomodate 12 cars. Also signal has to be moved on the up at Enfield Lock so rear of 10/12cars will not block crossing. Also work needed at Hartford East/Ware/St Margarets to allow 10/12 cars.
 

Bikeman78

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yes but is far from ideal as at Northumberland Park and Tott Hale will be the rear off end of platform as signals at those stations are at end of platform - so most passengers from Meridan Water will have to walk through train to get off. Anyway it is academic until platforms 10/11 at Stratford can accomodate 12 cars. Also signal has to be moved on the up at Enfield Lock so rear of 10/12cars will not block crossing. Also work needed at Hartford East/Ware/St Margarets to allow 10/12 cars.
Given that the trains are so late arriving, one might have hoped that the infrastructure would have been sorted by now. If the 720s had been delivered as planned, there would be a lot of them standing idle now.
 

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