Vaccine Passports - currently being considered in Scotland & Wales

[VauxhallandI]

I am not sure what you are getting at. From a Covid point of view, i have no reason to boycott games as there are no Covid requirements at Newcastle.

I mean when they introduce them which they are planning to

 

[MikeWM]

I mean when they introduce them which they are planning to

And of course, if everyone did the same, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike, then they couldn't introduce them.

 

[greyman42]

I mean when they introduce them which they are planning to

What makes you think that?

 

[Watershed]

The government's winter plan, announced this afternoon, states that vaccine passports are one of the first measures in the "plan B" the government will reach for, if the NHS is coming under "unsustainable pressure" despite the "plan A" of vaccinating just about anyone with a pulse.

This would apply as follows:

Under Plan B, the Government expects that mandatory vaccine-only certification would
be introduced for visitors to the following venues:
● All nightclubs;
● Indoor, crowded settings with 500 or more attendees where those attendees are likely to be in close proximity to people from other households, such as music venues or large receptions;
● Outdoor, crowded settings with 4,000 or more attendees where those attendees are likely to be in close proximity to people from other households, such as outdoor festivals; and
● Any settings with 10,000 or more attendees, such as large sports and music stadia.

There are some settings that will be exempt from requirements to use the NHS COVID Pass, including communal worship, wedding ceremonies, funerals and other commemorative events, protests and mass participation sporting events.

The Sword of Damocles continues to hang over the heads of those who haven't been vaccinated. It really does seem bonkers that the government thinks this is going to change uptake by any notable amount.

I'm not naive enough to think the government have any moral qualms, but you would at least hope they'd go for "encouragements" that work...

 

[MikeWM]

The government's winter plan, announced this afternoon, states that vaccine passports are one of the first measures in the "plan B" the government will reach for, if the NHS is coming under "unsustainable pressure" despite the "plan A" of vaccinating just about anyone with a pulse.

And note this delightful mention in para. 83:

For now, the NHS COVID Pass will continue to certify individuals based on vaccination, testing or natural immunity status. If Plan B is implemented, at that point the NHS COVID Pass will change to display full vaccination only.

ie. so if infections are so bad we have to move to 'plan B', we'll remove the testing option (which 'proves' someone doesn't have the virus) but keep the vaccination option (where someone may well have the virus and be passing it around).

Does anyone still think this is just about a virus, when faced with total nonsense like that?

The Sword of Damocles continues to hang over the heads of those who haven't been vaccinated. It really does seem bonkers that the government thinks this is going to change uptake by any notable amount.

This 'phoney war' is really getting rather tedious now.

 

[greyman42]

The government's winter plan, announced this afternoon, states that vaccine passports are one of the first measures in the "plan B" the government will reach for, if the NHS is coming under "unsustainable pressure" despite the "plan A" of vaccinating just about anyone with a pulse.

This would apply as follows:


The Sword of Damocles continues to hang over the heads of those who haven't been vaccinated. It really does seem bonkers that the government thinks this is going to change uptake by any notable amount.

I'm not naive enough to think the government have any moral qualms, but you would at least hope they'd go for "encouragements" that work...

Regarding Covid, i have heard a lot of "if, might, possibly and could" over the last 18 months and don't take a lot of notice.

 

[Watershed]

And note this delightful mention in para. 83:

For now, the NHS COVID Pass will continue to certify individuals based on vaccination, testing or natural immunity status. If Plan B is implemented, at that point the NHS COVID Pass will change to display full vaccination only.

ie. so if infections are so bad we have to move to 'plan B', we'll remove the testing option (which 'proves' someone doesn't have the virus) but keep the vaccination option (where someone may well have the virus and be passing it around).

It makes a total mockery of purportedly keeping people safe. Again, this goes beyond "this is morally objectionable" and becomes "what on earth is the point of that?".

Does anyone still think this is just about a virus, when faced with total nonsense like that?

I'm not sure the government is competent enough to make this about more than a virus! As far as I'm concerned this is just one of countless examples of the utter incompetence at the heart of government.

Regarding Covid, i have heard a lot of "if, might, possibly and could" over the last 18 months and don't take a lot of notice.

I certainly wouldn't read any of that as gospel, but it's just utterly depressing reading that and realising how we are, in many ways, in no better a position now than this time last year. Lockdowns are still politically acceptable and the majority of people still do not seem to accept what living with Covid means in practice.

 

[ScottGallagher]

So some smug anti vaxxers (not hesitants) can still go about their business going to festivals , nightclubs etc still preaching conspiracies on the strength of the majority of us getting jabbed, why do I think I have been totally mugged off here by the government after believing to be doing the morally right thing and getting vaccinated?

 

[Darandio]

So some smug anti vaxxers (not hesitants) can still go about their business going to festivals , nightclubs etc still preaching conspiracies on the strength of the majority of us getting jabbed, why do I think I have been totally mugged off here by the government after believing to be doing the morally right thing and getting vaccinated?

I'm certain there are now millions feeling the same, what exactly was the point? Day after day live news feeds showed interviews with people in their late teens/early twenties who said they were only getting it to make sure they would be fine when vaccine passports would be widely introduced. Then that carrot was removed.

If we go beyond plan A and plan B (presumably it's C) who on earth believes these people are going to put up with and abide with more harsh restrictions or even a lockdown this time?

 

[MikeWM]

So some smug anti vaxxers (not hesitants) can still go about their business going to festivals , nightclubs etc still preaching conspiracies on the strength of the majority of us getting jabbed, why do I think I have been totally mugged off here by the government after believing to be doing the morally right thing and getting vaccinated?

Why do you care what others have done? If you got vaccinated in the interests of your own health - the only valid reason to do so - then why are you concerned?

Do you really think that a handful of 'smug anti vaxxers' are worth introducing a 'papers please' society for?

If you're feeling ripped off, it's the government that hasn't delivered what it promised ('vaccinate the vulnerable and then we can get back to normal'), get irritated at them.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So some smug anti vaxxers (not hesitants) can still go about their business going to festivals , nightclubs etc still preaching conspiracies on the strength of the majority of us getting jabbed, why do I think I have been totally mugged off here by the government after believing to be doing the morally right thing and getting vaccinated?

No different to smug jabbed people getting excited over a two tier system so they can feel all big and important and have meaning in their lives.

What business is it of yours if someone is jabbed or not? A room full of jabbed people can still spread Covid, if you feel you’ve been played that’s on you.

 

[farleigh]

So some smug anti vaxxers (not hesitants) can still go about their business going to festivals , nightclubs etc still preaching conspiracies on the strength of the majority of us getting jabbed, why do I think I have been totally mugged off here by the government after believing to be doing the morally right thing and getting vaccinated?

How is getting vaccinated morally right?

I thought it was to stop yourself feeling under the weather

 

[HST274]

I suppose while I don't agree with Vaccine passports, let us all imagine you got vaccinated because the government said there would be passports for literally everything from leaving the house to onwards etc. and you got vaccinated against your gut feeling. And then when the government said they weren't doing that anymore you might feel a bit shortchanged.

On the other hand it is a little like leaving a country because they said they would do bad things to a lot of people (use your imagination) then feeling annoyed you left for nothing when they didn't do anything. (so almost wishing that bad thing had happened to validate you leaving).
Call it hyperbole etc.but that is my opinion.

 

[ScottGallagher]

No different to smug jabbed people getting excited over a two tier system so they can feel all big and important and have meaning in their lives.

What business is it of yours if someone is jabbed or not? A room full of jabbed people can still spread Covid, if you feel you’ve been played that’s on you.

I don't want a two tier system, I don't want any system in fact, but we are where we are.
And you're right it's none of my business if people don't have it, but I expect to have my choice to have it respected and not ridiculed too.

I suppose while I don't agree with Vaccine passports, let us all imagine you got vaccinated because the government said there would be passports for literally everything from leaving the house to onwards etc. and you got vaccinated against your gut feeling. And then when the government said they weren't doing that anymore you might feel a bit shortchanged.

On the other hand it is a little like leaving a country because they said they would do bad things to a lot of people (use your imagination) then feeling annoyed you left for nothing when they didn't do anything. (so almost wishing that bad thing had happened to validate you leaving).
Call it hyperbole etc.but that is my opinion.

Nail on head for me here and better articulated than I could ever have managed so thanks!

 

[DustyBin]

I don't want a two tier system, I don't want any system in fact, but we are where we are.
And you're right it's none of my business if people don't have it, but I expect to have my choice to have it respected and not ridiculed too.


Nail on head for me here and better articulated than I could ever have managed so thanks!

From your original post I get the impression that you’re annoyed as a result of two things:

1) The antivaxxers who find it amusing you were coerced into being vaccinated (I note you differentiate between actual antivaxxers and those who have simply declined it - I think that’s important).

2) The government basically lying to you in the first place.

Am I correct? If so I don’t blame you to be honest. I’ve declined the vaccine for now but I don’t tell other people to do the same, and I certainly wouldn’t ridicule them for thinking it was their ticket to normality (even though that’s not a reason to undergo a medical procedure in my opinion). I honestly thought vaccine passports were coming up until they were dropped the other day and as pleased as I am about it I completely understand your point of view. It was a despicable tactic employed by the government in my opinion.

 

[ScottGallagher]

From your original post I get the impression that you’re annoyed as a result of two things:

1) The antivaxxers who find it amusing you were coerced into being vaccinated (I note you differentiate between actual antivaxxers and those who have simply declined it - I think that’s important).

2) The government basically lying to you in the first place.

Am I correct? If so I don’t blame you to be honest. I’ve declined the vaccine for now but I don’t tell other people to do the same, and I certainly wouldn’t ridicule them for thinking it was their ticket to normality (even though that’s not a reason to undergo a medical procedure in my opinion). I honestly thought vaccine passports were coming up until they were dropped the other day and as pleased as I am about it I completely understand your point of view. It was a despicable tactic employed by the government in my opinion.

Yes you are absolutely correct, i had my 1st jab in May and 2nd jab in July. Vaccine passports were being flatly denied back then and it was more about speed rate of jabbing to permanently remove restrictions quicker , saving the NHS (again) , less risk to visit Granny etc. Now we are back to threats of lockdown again.

In the round in still content I have had it even just for my own medical benefit and not helping the wartime effort.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't want a two tier system, I don't want any system in fact, but we are where we are.
And you're right it's none of my business if people don't have it, but I expect to have my choice to have it respected and not ridiculed too.


Nail on head for me here and better articulated than I could ever have managed so thanks!

Then we need to break down anti vaxxer term, for this particular vaccine I can see why people are against it, some people who have had previous vaccines are very sceptical about the covid vaccine because of how all the governments around the world are using coercive policies to make people take them, quite frankly this policy was a none starter, the more you force people the more reluctant they become.

Next we have to look at how they’ve dangled freedom with conditions
Until the elderly and vulnerable have been double jabbed to now you can’t your freedoms back unless you take the jab, so on this point I can see why many are frustrated like yourself.

Now I respect your choice to be jabbed, it’s freedom of choice and that’s what I’ve always advocated, if we lose freedom of choice then kiss goodbye all our freedoms, I am still very hesitant and wary about this vaccine because there have been complications for some who’ve had the vaccine, the JCVI doesn’t recommend children having the vaccine for a reason and teenage boys are likely to have an adverse affect from it, now I’m no teenager (haven’t been for a very long time) but I am a healthy bloke who goes on regular walks and runs, I don’t want risk getting my health in a bad way until I know this vaccine is safe.

That’s basically what most so call d anti vaxxers are in this particular issue is more Cov-Vax Hesitant, and we too want our choices respected and not to be ridiculed and ostracised from society.

 

[AlterEgo]

How is getting vaccinated morally right?

I thought it was to stop yourself feeling under the weather

Vaccination was sold as the exit to the crisis, which is still true. It also reduces your risk to other people. In this way it can be viewed by some as a moral choice.

 

[DustyBin]

Vaccination was sold as the exit to the crisis, which is still true.

But it also requires political will, as I keep saying. With the majority now vaccinated the crisis is nowhere near over, for the simple reason some people don’t want it to be in my opinion.

It also reduces your risk to other people.

I accept this although to what extent seems rather unclear. This also ignores the possibility a person has natural immunity.

In this way it can be viewed by some as a moral choice.

I can see why some people would view it this way.

 

[bramling]

And note this delightful mention in para. 83:

For now, the NHS COVID Pass will continue to certify individuals based on vaccination, testing or natural immunity status. If Plan B is implemented, at that point the NHS COVID Pass will change to display full vaccination only.

ie. so if infections are so bad we have to move to 'plan B', we'll remove the testing option (which 'proves' someone doesn't have the virus) but keep the vaccination option (where someone may well have the virus and be passing it around).

Does anyone still think this is just about a virus, when faced with total nonsense like that?

How on earth can we take any of it seriously with stuff like that. Sharply spotted.

We are well into the territory where we are so far into the dark alley and no one willing to think about finding a route out.

The end-game for all this is very concerning for sure.

Meanwhile, the more there’s bickering about masks and vaccines (how convenient that both provide a mechanism for blame), the less anyone takes note of what the government are and aren’t doing. This theatre, combined with a useless opposition and media, is providing perfect cover for anything else unpopular or unsavoury to be slipped in by the back door. Tax rise last week, what will it be this week?

the crisis is nowhere near over, for the simple reason some people don’t want it to be

I’ve felt that for a while.

 

[asw22]

UK buys extra 32 million doses of Pfizer’s Covid vaccine but at ramped up prices

Britain has bought extra doses of the Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine at ramped up prices in the fight against coronavirus. The vaccines will be rolled out as part of an autumn booster campaign

www.mirror.co.uk

If you're charging £18 per vaccine and stand to earn say £90 million by vaccinating 5 million people with a booster, then what would your attitude be towards those who don't or can't take the vaccine due to various medical and personal) reasons?

With an efficacy of 90% and a take up rate of 100% the R value drops to 0.3 not 0 so we have to find ways of living with it
With an efficacy of 90& and a take up rate of 95% the R value drops to 0.45 which isn't much different to 0.3

Is it the case that if the R value is less than 1 then the disease starts to disappear anyway?
We know the efficacy apparently drops over time but does it drop sufficiently that you need a booster every 6 months?

Could some of the excess vaccines be allowed to go to countries where vaccine rates are much lower than the UK?
nearly 70 million in the uk out of 7billion worldwide and is it noticeable that the strongest variants have appeared in countries where vaccination rates are nearer to 0% than 90%

 

[Bantamzen]

Then we need to break down anti vaxxer term, for this particular vaccine I can see why people are against it, some people who have had previous vaccines are very sceptical about the covid vaccine because of how all the governments around the world are using coercive policies to make people take them, quite frankly this policy was a none starter, the more you force people the more reluctant they become.

Next we have to look at how they’ve dangled freedom with conditions
Until the elderly and vulnerable have been double jabbed to now you can’t your freedoms back unless you take the jab, so on this point I can see why many are frustrated like yourself.

Now I respect your choice to be jabbed, it’s freedom of choice and that’s what I’ve always advocated, if we lose freedom of choice then kiss goodbye all our freedoms, I am still very hesitant and wary about this vaccine because there have been complications for some who’ve had the vaccine, the JCVI doesn’t recommend children having the vaccine for a reason and teenage boys are likely to have an adverse affect from it, now I’m no teenager (haven’t been for a very long time) but I am a healthy bloke who goes on regular walks and runs, I don’t want risk getting my health in a bad way until I know this vaccine is safe.

That’s basically what most so call d anti vaxxers are in this particular issue is more Cov-Vax Hesitant, and we too want our choices respected and not to be ridiculed and ostracised from society.

The term "anti-vaxxers" has long since left the rhelms of meaning "people who are against vaccines" & now loosely refer to "any wot disagrees with me" in social media. In many, ahem, heated debates I've had across various platforms the one constant you can rely on when a pro-restriction poster starts to lose the argument is that they will reach for the "anti-vaxxer" insult & sit back. Of course when you then fire back with "double dosed mated", they rarely have any response.

This is one thing the media has been very good at over the last 18 months, convincing people that there are hoards of "anti-vaxxers" out there going to protests, flying to Spain, going to the pub, and generally being to blame for everything. If you listen really carefully, you can hear the average IQ of the country crashing through the floors...

UK buys extra 32 million doses of Pfizer’s Covid vaccine but at ramped up prices

Britain has bought extra doses of the Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine at ramped up prices in the fight against coronavirus. The vaccines will be rolled out as part of an autumn booster campaign

www.mirror.co.uk

If you're charging £18 per vaccine and stand to earn say £90 million by vaccinating 5 million people with a booster, then what would your attitude be towards those who don't or can't take the vaccine due to various valid (and some personal) reasons?

With an efficacy of 90% and a take up rate of 100% the R value drops to 0.3 not 0 so we have to find ways of living with it
With an efficacy of 90& and a take up rate of 95% the R value drops to 0.45 which isn't much different to 0.3

Is it the case that if the R value is less than 1 then the disease starts to disappear anyway?
We know the efficacy apparently drops over time but does it drop sufficiently that you need a booster every 6 months?

Could some of the excess vaccines be allowed to go to countries where vaccine rates are much lower than the UK?

Isn't it odd that shortly after the scientists behind the AZ vaccine declared that they thought only the most vulnerable would need boosters, the government run off to Pfizer to buy loads more for much wider boosters. A cynical person might raise an eyebrow at this point.

Following the science anyone?

 

[plugwash]

Is it the case that if the R value is less than 1 then the disease starts to disappear anyway?

A R rate less than 1 means a disease is declining. That each case on average leads to less than one further case.

But R is a crude average. Just because a disease is currently declining in the population as a whole doesn't mean it is declining in all sub-populations or that it will decline to zero.

 

[kristiang85]

The term "anti-vaxxers" has long since left the rhelms of meaning "people who are against vaccines" & now loosely refer to "any wot disagrees with me" in social media. In many, ahem, heated debates I've had across various platforms the one constant you can rely on when a pro-restriction poster starts to lose the argument is that they will reach for the "anti-vaxxer" insult & sit back. Of course when you then fire back with "double dosed mated", they rarely have any response.

This is one thing the media has been very good at over the last 18 months, convincing people that there are hoards of "anti-vaxxers" out there going to protests, flying to Spain, going to the pub, and generally being to blame for everything. If you listen really carefully, you can hear the average IQ of the country crashing through the floors...


Isn't it odd that shortly after the scientists behind the AZ vaccine declared that they thought only the most vulnerable would need boosters, the government run off to Pfizer to buy loads more for much wider boosters. A cynical person might raise an eyebrow at this point.

Following the science anyone?

Yes, the art of reasoned debate has been completely lost. Instead of trying to change peoples' views with facts and figures, the term 'anti vaxxer' is used, as if that's meant to win an argument. To me it just shows a lack of knowledge, research or any kind of critical thinking. It was the same with the Brexit debate - if you even questioned the EU or its motives, you were called a Brexiteer, even if you on balance voted remain.

As you say, it's a horrid indictment of the nation's IQ.

 

[nlogax]

As you say, it's a horrid indictment of the nation's IQ.

Social media has really enabled the decline of reasoned debate and polarised opinion for the sake of not losing face. I despise that tactics used there have made their way here.

 

[DustyBin]

Social media has really enabled the decline of reasoned debate and polarised opinion for the sake of not losing face. I despise that tactics used there have made their way here.

It does bring out the worst in people I agree.

 

[eastdyke]

Isn't it odd that shortly after the scientists behind the AZ vaccine declared that they thought only the most vulnerable would need boosters, the government run off to Pfizer to buy loads more for much wider boosters. A cynical person might raise an eyebrow at this point.

Following the science anyone?

Steps taken by government in all of this are dripped and that the drip is turned down or off when the heat gets upped, only for the drip to re-appear some time later.
[Note: 'vaccine' passports]

Boosters will be no different. Boosters will be offered [needed or not?] in tranches, starting with the elderly (now defined as over 50)/vulnerable. There is thus no need to mention the under 50's now as the 'time' for their boosters at dose 2 + 6 months is still some way off. Thereby not raising any questions at all from younger people as to the necessity of boosters.

This tactic will be rinsed and re-used down the age ranges.

I am totally bemused that this all seems to be done with a straight face.

Oh yes, I would love to see that science.

 

[greyman42]

But it also requires political will, as I keep saying. With the majority now vaccinated the crisis is nowhere near over, for the simple reason some people don’t want it to be in my opinion.

That will be people who do not fancy going back to the office who are the same people calling for a return to lockdown.

 

[185143]

Staff are certainly on the receiving end of some pretty terrible behaviour generally (anecdotally people are seemingly behaving far worse now than pre Covid). But, exactly as you say, there’s simply no need to be getting into arguments to do with masks. Even when they were legally compulsory staff weren’t required to “enforce” them.

Sadly as we all know there is a small minority who look for conflict and make rods for their own back.

I'd agree with all that. Behaviour on the network seems to be far, far worse than it was pre Covid.

On Monday, I was on a GWR train and the guard was aggressively threatened with violence at two consecutive stops by two separate fare evades who were then promptly removed from the train. For context, this was a lightly loaded Castle HST in Cornwall in the middle of the day. The conductor though was excellent. Wasn't phased by it at all and was more concerned about apologising to passengers who'd had to hear it. Which in itself is quite revealing really given some of the things heard.

 

[35B]

Then we need to break down anti vaxxer term, for this particular vaccine I can see why people are against it, some people who have had previous vaccines are very sceptical about the covid vaccine because of how all the governments around the world are using coercive policies to make people take them, quite frankly this policy was a none starter, the more you force people the more reluctant they become.

Next we have to look at how they’ve dangled freedom with conditions
Until the elderly and vulnerable have been double jabbed to now you can’t your freedoms back unless you take the jab, so on this point I can see why many are frustrated like yourself.

Now I respect your choice to be jabbed, it’s freedom of choice and that’s what I’ve always advocated, if we lose freedom of choice then kiss goodbye all our freedoms, I am still very hesitant and wary about this vaccine because there have been complications for some who’ve had the vaccine, the JCVI doesn’t recommend children having the vaccine for a reason and teenage boys are likely to have an adverse affect from it, now I’m no teenager (haven’t been for a very long time) but I am a healthy bloke who goes on regular walks and runs, I don’t want risk getting my health in a bad way until I know this vaccine is safe.

That’s basically what most so call d anti vaxxers are in this particular issue is more Cov-Vax Hesitant, and we too want our choices respected and not to be ridiculed and ostracised from society.

If you want respect for your view, you need to avoid misrepresenting the evidence. There is a rare side effect (myocarditis) in teenage boys, which occurs with enough frequency to mean that, given the probabilities around Covid, the medical risk/benefit balance is relatively even. That is something very different from the risk being likely). It also needs to be considered against the risk associated with the main cause of myocarditis - viral infection.

The risks associated with these vaccines are measured in incidents per million, which is a sign of how rare they are. Accepting for the moment your oft quoted figure of 99% of those infected Covid surviving, your risk from Covid is materially higher than that from the vaccines.

Given the nature of vaccines, and how they work, the impact is felt quickly - which is why with the billions of doses already given, the risk to anyone without specific contraindications is negligible.