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What makes a train look British?

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yorksrob

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I suppose that for manyyears, the mk1 was the standard train being built in the whole Uk, so anything derived from it looks inherantly British. Similarly with Mk2 and 3.
 

D6130

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I do appreciate TPE putting the full European fleet number on the side of it's 397s/802s!
Likewise the Northern class 195 and 331 units....but they look ridiculous because all the digits run together in a single long number instead of having the required spaces and hyphen in the appropriate places.
 

Bletchleyite

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Class 80x is hardly "British" when it comes from all over including construction in Japan and Italy.
UK regulations and practice determine how different the original train needs to be to meet the UK spec.

80x to me look like squashed Shinkansen, which is sort of what they are, based on the body shape, stuff on the roof (European practice tends more towards smooth rooflines) and doors.

This is less common nowadays but in the BR era and in the early days of privatisation 1st class and non-smoking accommodation was usually denoted by window labels whereas in mainland Europe the class of accommodation (and whether it was a smoking or non-smoking compartment or coach in the days of smoking accommodation) is normally denoted by signs on the coach bodyside next to each door and inside the coach (on each compartment door in side corridor coaches and above or next to the door at the end of the saloon in saloon coaches).

And the UK doesn't mark Standard class, that being the default. Just the presence of a big 2 by a door looks European.
 

Royston Vasey

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I hadn't appreciated before reading this thread just how elegant our pre-war steam locos were compared to foreign locos, particularly those of the GWR, from Gooch, Churchward and Collett but also of course Gresley, Stanier and Bulleid, and many others.

The Swindon men of course looked down rather on the functional messiness of Riddles' 9Fs that they were tasked with building up to 1960, with its high frames and exposed running gear. Dare I say more like a German or French loco than anything we ever made.
 

D6130

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The Swindon men of course looked down rather on the functional messiness of Riddles' 9Fs that they were tasked with building up to 1960, with its high frames and exposed running gear. Dare I say more like a German or French loco than anything we ever made.
Hence perhaps the decision to base the mock-up 'continental' loco in the "Mission Impossible" film on the 9F outline design?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I was going to say we never had any "Krokodil" electric locos (ie ugly as sin), although we may have had some on the very early schemes (Lancaster-Heysham, Newcastle perhaps).
They were quite common in CH/AT until fairly recent times, I encountered them on the RhB lines, and on the Zugspitze railway (valley section).

I found myself a few years ago on a loco-hauled SJ service from Stockholm to Oslo.
It occurred to me that the SJ loco could well have seen its origins with those on the Woodhead route - I think this was the type, still in use across Sweden:
SJ Rc5 1388 with an Intercity train at Sala Station, Photo 1 - SJ Rc - Wikipedia
I think the 26000/27000 series were both in black, too.
 

30907

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I was going to say we never had any "Krokodil" electric locos (ie ugly as sin), although we may have had some on the very early schemes (Lancaster-Heysham, Newcastle perhaps).
They were quite common in CH/AT until fairly recent times, I encountered them on the RhB lines, and on the Zugspitze railway (valley section).
Essentially because Crocs (and rod-drives of all sort, including the box-nose types) were superseded by the classic two-hour design (BLS Ae4/4 was the first IIRC) before we had main-line electric locos (bar the NER one).
I found myself a few years ago on a loco-hauled SJ service from Stockholm to Oslo.
It occurred to me that the SJ loco could well have seen its origins with those on the Woodhead route - I think this was the type, still in use across Sweden:
SJ Rc5 1388 with an Intercity train at Sala Station, Photo 1 - SJ Rc - Wikipedia
I think the 26000/27000 series were both in black, too.
Whether the LNER came up with the EM1/EM2 design independently of mainland Europe I don't know - it's possible - but the ASEA Rc design has strong Swiss affinities, no doubt because ASEA and Brown Boveri merged at some stage! The (recent!) black livery is reminiscent of the LNER though - I can't recall another European country using black on electric locos.
 

superalbs

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Again, Belgium and NL are exceptions to that rule. I think some Japanese units have front gangways too.
They might have some, but generally outside of the UK, they are not at all the done thing.
 

Alanko

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I'm sure you know this, but it wasn't really a "decision" as such. More a combination of (a) what we were capable of building in the 1830s, coupled with (b) never having to rebuild following conflict, which deprived us of the opportunity to re-assess what was required.
I was thinking the same. A pitfall of being first, really.

I saw a photo of a Class 66 in America, sitting next to a domestic US diesel loco. The 'shed' looked almost toylike by comparison. It was only then that I really realised how dialled in everything had to be to suit our railway infrastructure.
 

Wapps

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American trains always seem not to be painted, so have that bare aluminium look. The Swedish tilting train looks American in this respect, as does Chiltern Train’s Mk3 set even though that is painted/vinalyed.
 

norbitonflyer

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Essentially because Crocs (and rod-drives of all sort, including the box-nose types) were superseded by the classic two-hour design (BLS Ae4/4 was the first IIRC) before we had main-line electric locos (bar the NER one).
Most early British electric locomotive designs (pre-Grouping, or indeed pre-1940) were of "Steeple cab" or "Camel back" design.

the Central London Railway's locomotives of 1900 (Bo-Bo wheel arrangement) (total, 18). Withdrawn by 1905.
the NER's Class ES1 of 1903 (Bo-Bo) (Two)
the Metropolitan Railway's original locomotives of 1906 (ten examples)
the LYR's No 1 of 1912 (2-B-2,complete with side-rods)
the NER's Class EF1 of 1913 (Bo-Bo) (Ten examples)
the North Staffordshire's battery locomotives of 1913 and 1917 (Bo) (Two)
the LYR's No 2 of 1917 (Bo) - also battery powered
the NER's Class EE1 of 1922 (2-C-2, not double-bogie)
Total 27, (45 including the short-lived CLR examples)

There were double-cab examples as well - the single shunting engine built for the Waterloo & City Line, ten built for the Metropolitan District railway, and a second batch of ten for the Met (all twenty Met locos were rebuilt in the 1920s) - total 21.

The largest electric fleet of all, eventually numbering 52, were the bizarrely designed locos for the City & South London Railway. This could be described as centre-cab, but the electrical equipment was on either side of the driver, not fore-and-aft.

I am not aware of any new electric locos built between the Wars for UK railways. The next were the Raworth "booster" Co-Cos for the Southern Railway in 1940 (later Class 70) and the first "Tommy" (Class 76) the following year.
 
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Royston Vasey

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3Most early British electric locomotive designs (before 1920, or indeed 1940) were of "Steeple cab" or "Camel back" design.

the Central London Railway's locomotives of 1900 (Bo-Bo wheel arrangement) (total, 18). Withdrawn by 1905.
the NER's Class ES1 of 1903 (Bo-Bo) (Two)
the Metropolitan Railway's original locomotives of 1906 (ten examples)
the LYR's No 1 of 1912 (2-B-2,complete with side-rods)
the NER's Class EF1 of 1913 (Bo-Bo) (Ten examples)
the NER's Class EE1 of 1913 (2-C-2, not double-bogie)
the North Staffordshire's battery locomotives of 1913 and 1917 (Bo) (Two)
the LYR's No 2 of 1917 (Bo) - also battery powered
Total 27, (45 including the short-lived CLR examples)

There were double-cab examples as well - the single shunting engine built for the Waterloo & City Line, ten built for the Metropolitan District railway, and a second batch of ten for the Met (all twenty were rebuilt in the 1920s) - total 21.

The largest electric fleet of all, eventually numbering 52, were the bizarrely designed locos for the City & South London Railway. This could be described as centre-cab, but the electrical equipment was on either side of the driver, not fore-and-aft.

I am not aware of any new electric locos built between the Wars for UK railways. The next were the Raworth "booster" Co-Cos for the Southern Railway in 1940 (later Class 70) and the first "Tommy" (Class 76) the following year.
The NER 2-C-2 EE1 of 1922 (not 1913, typo there I think) bears something of a resemblance to the Pennsylvania Railroad 2-C+C-2 GG1 of 1934, some of which lasted until 1983! A similar lifespan to some Class 86s I suppose.

ee1_2.jpg


50217650668_1f3aa8ccae_b.jpg
 

pdeaves

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The NER 2-C-2 EE1 of 1922 (not 1913, typo there I think) bears something of a resemblance to the Pennsylvania Railroad 2-C+C-2 GG1 of 1934, some of which lasted until 1983! A similar lifespan to some Class 86s I suppose.

ee1_2.jpg


50217650668_1f3aa8ccae_b.jpg
I think the American one still looks more American. Possibly because of the air smoothed look that really isn't there on the LNER one.
 

sprinterguy

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Hence perhaps the decision to base the mock-up 'continental' loco in the "Mission Impossible" film on the 9F outline design?
That was based on a different BR standard design - The 'Britannia' Pacific, though the general premise may well still apply.
 

Halish Railway

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Has anyone mentioned the use of Brecknell-Willis pantographs? Outside the UK the only uses I can think of are on Class 373s when using 1.5KV in France & 3KV DC in Belgium, the AM83 ‘Breaks’ in Belgium, as well as most electric trains in the USA, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. Can anyone think of any other uses of this pantograph design.
 

dorsetdesiro

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I don't think I have seen anything like single door gangwayed intercity stock like 442s & 444s anywhere outside the UK - some may exist probably not as widespread.

I agree with comnents about gangwayed stock being a British trait
 

norbitonflyer

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Years before that, I always liked the look of the front end curved side windows on the Class 124 units on the cross-Pennine services.
Similar styling to the Scottish "Blue Trains" (Classes 303 and 311) and the LMR class 310s. Wrap-round windscreens were also fitted to the gangwayed classes 309 and 123 (which gave the latter a much improved appearance compared to the otherwise similar 126s).
The electric units all had their windscreens replaced with flat panes in the 1980s, (and the 312s, although otherwise similar to the 310s, had flat screens from new) but the diesel types (123,124) kept them to the end - possibly because the end was not far off by then anyway.
It was therefore a surprise to see the class 442s resurrected the look in the late 1980s.

I hadn't appreciated before reading this thread just how elegant our pre-war steam locos were compared to foreign locos, particularly those of the GWR, from Gooch, Churchward and Collett but also of course Gresley, Stanier and Bulleid, and many others.
Bulleid Pacifics were not actually pre-war.The first was built in 1941

8th January 1942 - my grandmother writing about a journey back to Devon after a visit back to the family's London home over Christmas. "The loco was of curious pattern and R [my uncle, then aged 14] thought it was really intended for abroad or something"
So at least one knowledgable observer (who spent his spare time helping out at the station in the Devon village where the family lived for most of the War) thought a Bulleid Pacific (for what else could it have been?) looked decidedly un-British
 
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nlogax

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From my perspective as a mere passenger and in comparison with US and continental stock I've experienced

- Yellow cab ends
- Gangways
- Restricted gauge (and matching lower pantographs)
- Legacy or deprecated coupler types
 

norbitonflyer

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I think the 26000/27000 series were both in black, too.
All British Railways diesel, electric, and gas turbine locos were in black until about 1957, when a sea of BR green started to envelop the fleet. Some shunters were still black in the late 1970s, by which time the only surviving pre-Nationalisation main line type, the EM1 Woodhead electrics, were all blue.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think I have seen anything like single door gangwayed intercity stock like 442s & 444s anywhere outside the UK - some may exist probably not as widespread.

I agree with comnents about gangwayed stock being a British trait

The two that spring to mind are the NS "Koploper" (albeit in an unusual design, and the gangways now out of use) and those Belgian rubber ring things.

The reason you don't see many is that you don't see many low speed InterCity MUs in mainland Europe, though the FLIRT and Alstom equivalent are edging into that market - it's mostly still LHCS.
 
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