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Plot To Replace Printed Timetables With QR Codes

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duncanp

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I really hopes the government puts this to bed, and tells the TOCs in no uncertain terms that poster timetables at stations must remain.


I am not opposed to the use of QR codes as a means of disseminating timetable information, but this must be in addition to existing sources of information, not a means of replacing them.

As the article says, not everyone has a smartphone, and some people may have security concerns about taking their phone out at certain locations late at night. What if the relevant App isn't working, or if your phone has run out of battery or data, or there is no Wifi signal?


What next, will the departure boards at stations be abolished, and people told to rely on an App to see what platform their train is running from.


Plot to replace train timetable posters with QR codes triggers safety fears​

Commuter group warns move risks leaving passengers vulnerable late at night

Rail operators are scrapping printed timetables as part of a multi million-pound cost cutting exercise, sparking claims that passengers’ personal safety is being put at risk.

Pocket and poster timetables will be withdrawn and replaced with QR codes. Passenger groups said the move could prove dangerous at unstaffed stations late at night, as well as excluding some rail users.

The Department for Transport is under pressure to cut costs after spending more than £10bn to keep services running during the pandemic.

The Treasury has stressed that the DfT is not a “protected” department, meaning it could be on the receiving end of swingeing cuts as Rishi Sunak sets out his spending review this week.

A White Paper, published alongside a Government review of the railways earlier this year, championed the need to “modernise” the network with staff on hand to help those who struggle with paperless tickets or looking up timetables online.

Jacqueline Starr, chief executive of the Rail Delivery Group, which represents operators, said: “Over £20m is being invested across the railway to make it easier for people to get all the information they want, when and how they want it.


"Printed timetables cost around £2m a year and are used by 1pc of passengers, which is why we’re in discussions with the Government about redirecting this money to invest in better, real time information and prevent a significant amount of paper being used unnecessarily.”

But Emma Gibson, a director at commuter group London Travelwatch, said: ‘Many people still rely on printed timetable posters at the station and always keep a pocket timetable in their bag just in case they need it.

“People don’t always want to have to get their smartphone out to check a QR code, which can be a fiddly process, particularly if they have concerns about their personal security at an unstaffed station late at night. We have heard from rail users first-hand that there is great concern around these changes, particularly around how quickly they will happen.

“We’re concerned that someone turning up at a railway station for the first time in over a year who does not have a smartphone will not have access to information that they would expect as a matter of course and that this poor experience could put them off using rail in the future.”

Ms Starr added: “For people who would like a paper timetable, there would be options to ask for a copy to be printed at some stations or to request a copy from the train operator.”

A spokesman for the Government said: “Our railway must be accessible and open to everyone, which is why we’re working with operators to ensure they make access to timetables simpler and more convenient."
 
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Starmill

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Presumably they're mainly trying to avoid the cost of printing the large paper posters.
 

Ianno87

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Why are the large paper posters needed when Passenger Information screens and smartphones do most of the job?

You barely ever see anybody reading the classic Departure Sheets any more (the ones that list stations alphabetically with all direct trains and some connections).
 

duncanp

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Presumably they're mainly trying to avoid the cost of printing the large paper posters.

Yes, cost saving is the motive.

No doubt the people who get the credit for saving money will not be the ones who are inconvenienced by not having poster timetables available.

But it is surely not unreasonable to turn up at a railway station, even an unstaffed halt in the middle of nowhere, and expect to find a map and timetable for trains from that station.

Many people have commented on these forums about how useless National Rail Enquiries is, both the website and the call centre.

But I fear this change will go ahead regardless, and the TOCs will take not the slightest bit of notice of what anyone thinks.
 

Ianno87

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I think it is genuinely valid to review what printed information is provided, and what is of most use to passengers. E.g. printed information is often rendered useless by engineering works.

All of this has a cost associated with it, so focus on what is most useful (rather than lets-just-carry-on-everything-BR-did-because-tradition).
 

Bletchleyite

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I think it is genuinely valid to review what printed information is provided, and what is of most use to passengers. E.g. printed information is often rendered useless by engineering works.

All of this has a cost associated with it, so focus on what is most useful (rather than lets-just-carry-on-everything-BR-did-because-tradition).

Hardly anyone uses printed timetable posters in stations, I'd agree, provided there is a PIS. Even better if there's a PIS and a Takt style timetable because if you're a regular user you'll just remember it.

If they're talking about printed timetable booklets I'd agree that simplifying them to automatically generated A4 PDFs and having staffed booking offices print them on demand is a perfectly suitable approach.
 

Trainfan2019

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Regarding the classic departure sheets (alphabetical destinations served) at large stations, I'm surprised these are still around. I quite like the touch of old-fashionedness of them though.

I noticed that during covid the ones on platform 5 at Crewe disappeared and as far as I know haven't come back. When I last looked, the displays had engineering works posters and covid notices I think.
 

Bletchleyite

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Regarding the classic departure sheets (alphabetical destinations served) at large stations, I'm surprised these are still around. I quite like the touch of old-fashionedness of them though.

Yes, they're quite quaint, but also no doubt expensive to keep updating, and often totally wrong.

A few major stations have a touch screen where you can basically pop up an electronic version. Perhaps more of these would be in order, including adding the facility to all TVMs which would mean it was provided by default at the vast, vast majority of stations.
 

duncanp

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Yes, they're quite quaint, but also no doubt expensive to keep updating, and often totally wrong.

A few major stations have a touch screen where you can basically pop up an electronic version. Perhaps more of these would be in order, including adding the facility to all TVMs which would mean it was provided by default at the vast, vast majority of stations.

I think using touch screens, either standalone ones or incorporated into ticket machines, would be a good use of modern technology to provide the same information that is provided on printed timetable posters.

Whatever solution is adopted, there has to be some option for people who don't have a smartphone, for whatever reason.
 

Horizon22

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Whilst it might be useful to keep, not sure how exactly it "keeps passengers safe at night". Almost all stations have a CIS and if you're out late at night, chances are these days you've got a smart mobile.
 

londonteacher

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I really hopes the government puts this to bed, and tells the TOCs in no uncertain terms that poster timetables at stations must remain.
Yes, let's stay in the past and never progress. I can almost be certain that very few people actually use these posters! PIS systems will display the relevant information so no loss of information really.

Whilst it might be useful to keep, not sure how exactly it "keeps passengers safe at night". Almost all stations have a CIS and if you're out late at night, chances are these days you've got a smart mobile.
It doesn't keep people safe at all. If a station is so unsafe that you will not have your phone out to check times then questions need to be asked about whether their needs to be a staff presence not a paper timetable.
 

duncanp

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Yes, let's stay in the past and never progress. I can almost be certain that very few people actually use these posters! PIS systems will display the relevant information so no loss of information really.

As I said in my opening post on this thread, I am not opposed to the use of QR codes to give out timetable information, provided this is in addition to existing sources of information, not instead of them.

You may not use printed timetable posters, but that doesn't mean other people don't use them.
 

Bletchleyite

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Whilst it might be useful to keep, not sure how exactly it "keeps passengers safe at night". Almost all stations have a CIS and if you're out late at night, chances are these days you've got a smart mobile.

I think the argument is that people getting their phone out so others can see what it is could put them at greater risk of mugging. However, if you look at a typical station and see how just about every waiting passenger is fiddling with their phone, I suspect very few people really do think that way.
 

Ianno87

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.

You may not use printed timetable posters, but that doesn't mean other people don't use them.

Really needs some analysis of the cost of providing these posters against the fares benefit of the people who genuinely depend on them (that cannot be covered by any other medium).
 

Bletchleyite

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Really needs some analysis of the cost of providing these posters against the fares benefit of the people who genuinely depend on them (that cannot be covered by any other medium).

Another option to look at is to simplify, i.e. rather than printing the large format glossy colour posters, have poster frames that take A4 pages and just run them off on the booking office laser, costing next to nothing.
 

Ianno87

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Another option to look at is to simplify, i.e. rather than printing the large format glossy colour posters, have poster frames that take A4 pages and just run them off on the booking office laser, costing next to nothing.

And just the most basic required information, using a standard template to generate the poster.
 

londonteacher

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As I said in my opening post on this thread, I am not opposed to the use of QR codes to give out timetable information, provided this is in addition to existing sources of information, not instead of them.

You may not use printed timetable posters, but that doesn't mean other people don't use them.
As the article says 1pc of passengers use them and they cost £2m. Why do they need to continue this colossal waste of money for the very small minority?
 

DarloRich

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good idea. make it happen asap. Lets join the 20th century rather than living in the 19th

I bet almost all of the 1% referred to are on this board!
 

Ianno87

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As the article says 1pc of passengers use them and they cost £2m. Why do they need to continue this colossal waste of money for the very small minority?

Let's also not forget that even pre-Covid, printed timetables (in racks) weren't always easy to find - usually only stocked at major stations anyway.

Only suggests that the most determined of passengers actually use them (and many of those could use other methods and choose not to)
 

londonteacher

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Let's also not forget that even pre-Covid, printed timetables (in racks) weren't always easy to find - usually only stocked at major stations anyway.

Only suggests that the most determined of passengers actually use them (and many of those could use other methods and choose not to)
That's not entirely true as the article is talking about the posters not the booklets.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Yes, they're quite quaint, but also no doubt expensive to keep updating
Not really. Given the existence of open rail datafeeds, I would wager there are half a dozen people on this forum (me included) who could trivially code up a script to generate them for any given station.

At which point you just have the marginal costs of printing - and yes, a grid of A4 pages would be fine for that - and getting the already employed station staff to pin them up.
 

AlterEgo

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As the article says 1pc of passengers use them and they cost £2m. Why do they need to continue this colossal waste of money for the very small minority?
You don't understand. On these forums every iota of progress or change is met with - often spurious - concerns about accessibility or safety.
 

lord rathmore

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Why are the large paper posters needed when Passenger Information screens and smartphones do most of the job?

You barely ever see anybody reading the classic Departure Sheets any more (the ones that list stations alphabetically with all direct trains and some connections).

Older passengers still use the posted timetables. If there is a rush to go full-digital like say the banks are trying to do, folk like my elderly Mother in law will be excluded. Is this what we want?
 
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londonteacher

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Not really. Given the existence of open rail datafeeds, I would wager there are half a dozen people on this forum (me included) who could trivially code up a script to generate them for any given station.

At which point you just have the marginal costs of printing - and yes, a grid of A4 pages would be fine for that - and getting the already employed station staff to pin them up.
The article says they cost £2m, but yes they probably could be done cheaper.

The railways can't and should not continue paying £2m for the 1%.

You don't understand. On these forums every iota of progress or change is met with - often spurious - concerns about accessibility or safety.
It definitely does seem that way!
 

Ianno87

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You don't understand. On these forums every iota of progress or change is met with - often spurious - concerns about accessibility or safety.

"But what about my Nan travelling from Ulverston to Brundall Gardens with heavy luggage, three kids and a pushchair, with no smartphone at 10 o' clock at night in February in the rain?!"
 

Non Multi

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It's a negative for leisure travellers who may not know the XX past the hour departures on an unfamiliar route. But it's their fault for bothering with rail travel in the first place.

I'd have thought that the electric and maintenance costs for providing substitute electronic screens, or rugged touchscreen PCs and thermal printers, or large TVM touchscreens left on nearly all day would cost more than printing the posters twice a year.

It's also safe to assume printed posters will occupy many empty cases and will still cost money to update, as faded and wrinkled posters make stations look uncared for.
 

Ianno87

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Older passengers still use the posted timetables.

Do they? Anecdotally I see them very little used indeed. Could this information be provided another way?

If there is a rush to go full-digital like say the banks are trying to do, folk like my elderly Mother in law will be excluded. Is this what we want?

What we want is to give them information via an appropriate medium, and support to make their journey safely.
 

londonteacher

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It's a negative for leisure travellers who may not know the XX past the hour departures on an unfamiliar route. But it's their fault for bothering with rail travel in the first place.

I'd have thought that the electric and maintenance costs for providing substitute electronic screens, or rugged touchscreen PCs and thermal printers, or large TVM touchscreens left on nearly all day would cost more than printing the posters twice a year.

It's also safe to assume printed posters will occupy the empty cases and will still cost money to update, as faded and wrinkled posters make stations look uncared for.
It's not negative at all.

The posters are, from the minute they are printed, out if date due to any disruption and not providing up to date information. Digital displays such as PIS and touchscreen journey planners are updated constantly with the most up to date information.
 

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It's a negative for leisure travellers who may not know the XX past the hour departures on an unfamiliar route. But it's their fault for bothering with rail travel in the first place.

I'd have thought that the electric and maintenance costs for providing substitute electronic screens, or rugged touchscreen PCs and thermal printers, or large TVM touchscreens left on nearly all day would cost more than printing the posters twice a year.
False equivalence; the screens are there anyway and have to be, as they provide - importantly - up to date information, including delays, cancellations, short forms, and so on. Stuff that static posters printed five months ago cannot provide.
 

londonteacher

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Do they? Anecdotally I see them very little used indeed. Could this information be provided another way?



What we want is to give them information via an appropriate medium, and support to make their journey safely.
Exactly that. A paper display won't help in times of disruption.
 
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