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Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

BayPaul

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One thing I’m curious about is why does it now take so long to find investigate these accidents and to remove vehicles, or is it a myth that lines reopened a lot quicker in BR days?
I must say I am impressed by how quickly the investigation phase has been completed. Effectively just 3 days for multiple agencies to investigate a complex site where presumably the trains wedged in the tunnels were making access to much of the physical evidence difficult, and doing a good job in prioritisation to allow services west of Salisbury to restart whilst the investigation was still underway.
 
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DNCharingX

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Goodbye :<
I would suggest such a call would just add to confusion as its meaningless unless advised what the brace position is .

There should perhaps be a universal audio/indication to head to the rear and brace, something activated by an "if all else fails" button, time might not allow for an announcement.

Something perhaps similar to inspector sands?

I would be surprised if something like this doesn't exist, though I'm hardly qualified to comment on safety features onboard trains.
 

Stigy

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I can only guess here as I have little experience of working with the Express Sprinters, but are the Hazard Warning lights are linked to any Emergency Lighting set up on the 158 / 159s? I've noticed Emergency Lighting does seem to vary between TOCs, for example on the HST Fleets the FGW / GWR / ScotRail version will only come on when the switch is turned on, whereas the on the GNER & XC versions, they are actually switched on 24/7 as part of the normal lighting set up but are noticeable when the main lights are off.
The hazards aren’t linked to anything and need to be switched on manually.
 

greatkingrat

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There should perhaps be a universal audio/indication to head to the rear and brace, something activated by an "if all else fails" button, time might not allow for an announcement.

Something perhaps similar to inspector sands?

I would be surprised if something like this doesn't exist, though I'm hardly qualified to comment on safety features onboard trains.
If people start getting up from their seats and trying to move to the rear of the train, they are likely to suffer more injuries than if they had just remained where they were.
 

Stigy

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There should perhaps be a universal audio/indication to head to the rear and brace, something activated by an "if all else fails" button, time might not allow for an announcement.

Something perhaps similar to inspector sands?

I would be surprised if something like this doesn't exist, though I'm hardly qualified to comment on safety features onboard trains.
The CIS has several coded messages that I assume staff were once told about, but I have no idea what they mean :D.

As for passenger announcements, I think panic would just ensue, making matters potentially worse depending on how heavily the train was loaded.
 

Llama

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Difficult to balance whether such an announcement would do more harm than good really, every situation on its own merits. You wouldn't want to have people get out of their seats and be crowded in the aisle at the moment of a collision.
 

Ianno87

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If people start getting up from their seats and trying to move to the rear of the train, they are likely to suffer more injuries than if they had just remained where they were.

And train seats are designed to deform when impacted. Part of the reason why trains don't have seatbelts.
 

43096

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There should perhaps be a universal audio/indication to head to the rear and brace, something activated by an "if all else fails" button, time might not allow for an announcement.
Heading to the rear isn’t always the right answer, as the passengers on the GWR service at Salisbury know. There’s also potential for far more injuries as passengers get up from where they are and are then thrown around in an impact.
 

Juniper Driver

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I was driving a 745 today that went into a full slide, even with their WSP they can do it.
Doing a running brake test on a 455 8 car many years back (at Kempton Park on a set of empties down road) the Train went into a slide… I left the brake to do it's work and the emergency brake came on because I lost a lot of main res...

Question though…. How do the 159's stuck London side refuel? Never really struck me before. Someone did suggest Fratton, but I'm not so sure…haven't been down there for nearly 15 years… Drivers have asked me about Clapham and Barton Mill, but I said no… Load of 159's in Clapham Yard yesterday and 2 x158 in the bay at Southampton… They are scattered about here and there, stranded away from their Home Depot.
 
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Economist

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I recall that at Winsford in the late 90's the driver remained in the cab to activate the sand hoppers before the collision. I understand that since it was a Class 87 at speed, his escape options were limited but it does make me wonder whether on more modern stock the emergency brake application automatically results in maximum sanding being provided?
 

Kite159

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Doing a running brake test on a 455 8 car many years back (at Kempton Park on a set of empties down road) the Train went into a slide… I left the brake to do it's work and the emergency brake came on because I lost a lot of main res...

Question though…. How do the 159's stuck London side refuel? Never really struck me before. Someone did suggest Fratton, but I'm not so sure…haven't been down there for nearly 15 years… Drivers have asked me about Clapham and Barton Mill, but I said no… Load of 159's in Clapham Yard yesterday and 2 x158 in the bay at Southampton… They are scattered about here and there, stranded away from their Home Depot.

I think someone did post an ECS move on RTT taking units to Fratton to refuel. I guess it's similar to GWR with having units stranded away from their home depot (the ones running Romsey - Portsmouth shuttles).

Are 159s cleared to run via Pewsey (assuming they are piloted by a freight driver/GWR driver) as a last resort to get back to base? (Would suggest via Weymouth but that line is closed at the moment for engineering works)
 

swt_passenger

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I think someone did post an ECS move on RTT taking units to Fratton to refuel. I guess it's similar to GWR with having units stranded away from their home depot (the ones running Romsey - Portsmouth shuttles).
I think there was a rumour a couple of years ago that since SWR no longer ran DMUs to the Portsmouth area the fuel point might be closed, and GWR would have to stable and fuel elsewhere, but I’m sure the latter turned out to be duff gen. GWR still make normal use of the fuelling road, I believe.
 

LeylandLen

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I hear on BBC radio that 'two carriages are to be lifted today and two tomorrow' . Will recovery etc be in this thread or will there be a new one ?
 

GC class B1

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Doing a running brake test on a 455 8 car many years back (at Kempton Park on a set of empties down road) the Train went into a slide… I left the brake to do it's work and the emergency brake came on because I lost a lot of main res...

Question though…. How do the 159's stuck London side refuel? Never really struck me before. Someone did suggest Fratton, but I'm not so sure…haven't been down there for nearly 15 years… Drivers have asked me about Clapham and Barton Mill, but I said no… Load of 159's in Clapham Yard yesterday and 2 x158 in the bay at Southampton… They are scattered about here and there, stranded away from their Home Depot.
I am surprised that the Low Main Reservoir Protection system operated to initiate an Emergency brake application as a result of WSP activity. Low Main Reservoir protection is primarily intended to stop the train in the event that the compressed air supply is no longer available. I would expect the compressor/s to be able to provide sufficient air for WSP activity.
 

Dieseldriver

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I am surprised that the Low Main Reservoir Protection system operated to initiate an Emergency brake application as a result of WSP activity. Low Main Reservoir protection is primarily intended to stop the train in the event that the compressed air supply is no longer available. I would expect the compressor/s to be able to provide sufficient air for WSP activity.
I’ve experienced this in a prolonged slide in a 3 step brake unit. When I came to a stand I had to sit and wait for the main res air to build back up before I could continue.
 

Llama

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There's a video doing the rounds of a cl.66 attempting to drag the 159 out of Fisherton tunnel in a pretty robust way and not getting very far, a bit like the Kirkby incident with the 37 clearing up earlier this year.
 

Suraggu

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There's a video doing the rounds of a cl.66 attempting to drag the 159 out of Fisherton tunnel in a pretty robust way and not getting very far, a bit like the Kirkby incident with the 37 clearing up earlier this year.
It's 59003 and from that video it's going to be a fair bit of tug of war to drag 159102 out.
 

MotCO

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It's interesting that the hazard warning lights were switched on on the rear 158 in this incident - I'm going to assume that was switched on prior to the collision by a quick-thinking guard who wouldn't have known exactly what was happening or that the approaching 159 was unable to stop. IMO they should be given credit for their actions.

If I recall, the 158 ended up in two separate sections, with no clear indication why this was. If the train did split before the collision, would this automatically trigger the hazard warning lights?
 

RPI

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If I recall, the 158 ended up in two separate sections, with no clear indication why this was. If the train did split before the collision, would this automatically trigger the hazard warning lights?
Its a fair assumption to make now we know both trains were in motion at the time of the collision, that the GWR set most likely spilt with the extra drag and the weak link would be the BSI coupler
 

LowLevel

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If I recall, the 158 ended up in two separate sections, with no clear indication why this was. If the train did split before the collision, would this automatically trigger the hazard warning lights?

Nothing automatic triggers the hazard warning lights. They have to be switched on manually.
 

WrongRoad

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I am surprised that the Low Main Reservoir Protection system operated to initiate an Emergency brake application as a result of WSP activity. Low Main Reservoir protection is primarily intended to stop the train in the event that the compressed air supply is no longer available. I would expect the compressor/s to be able to provide sufficient air for WSP activity.
It can happen, had it at Surbiton once on a 455, WSP activated and used all the Main Res air and the Emergency Brake applied.
 

norbitonflyer

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I must say I am impressed by how quickly the investigation phase has been completed. Effectively just 3 days for multiple agencies to investigate a complex site where presumably the trains wedged in the tunnels were making access to much of the physical evidence difficult, and doing a good job in prioritisation to allow services west of Salisbury to restart whilst the investigation was still underway.
Possibly once it was established the cause was external to the tunnel (and the trains) there was no reason not to start the clear up. They may still be looking at the track near the start of the skid and/or what's left of the signalling.

The most relevant cab was so badly damaged, by both the accident and the rescue operation, and difficult to reach in situ, that there is probably not much more information to be gained from it. There may be a black box, but the most crucial evidence will be from the other intelligence in the cab, as he has thankfully lived to tell the tale.
 

43096

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The most relevant cab was so badly damaged, by both the accident and the rescue operation, and difficult to reach in situ, that there is probably not much more information to be gained from it. There may be a black box, but the most crucial evidence will be from the other intelligence in the cab, as he has thankfully lived to tell the tale.
The RAIB have already said that they have the data from the data recorders. I believe the 159s have forward facing CCTV as well, so that will also be with the RAIB.
 

dciuk

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There could be a possibility that the guard, if in the back cab, saw the lights of the SWR and took some action?
If the 158 was still moving at the time of the impact and the 159 hit the side of the 158 (although I am not sure that we have official confirmation of either of these) would a guard in the rear cab even have seen the 159 before impact? Perhaps they would have from the side window, but I am not sure how visable the Andover line would have been from that location.
 

Grumpy Git

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If the 158 was still moving at the time of the impact and the 159 hit the side of the 158 (although I am not sure that we have official confirmation of either of these) would a guard in the rear cab even have seen the 159 before impact? Perhaps they would have from the side window, but I am not sure how visable the Andover line would have been from that location.
It was dark, probably peeing it down and blowing a gale, I suspect they would have seen nothing?
 

Domh245

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There may be a black box

There was an OTDR (located in the less damaged offside of the cab I thnk) and the ORR have already been able to access the information within it, hence the details in the preliminary report around when the driver of the SWR 159 started applying the brakes and the extent of wheelslide experienced

Preliminary analysis of data downloaded from the On Train Data Recorder (OTDR) fitted to train 1L53 shows that the driver initially applied service braking to slow the train on approach to the caution signal before signal SY31. Around 12 seconds after service braking started, the driver made an emergency brake demand. As the train approached signal SY31, and with the emergency brake still being demanded by the driver, a second emergency brake demand was made by the train protection and warning system (TPWS). These emergency brake demands did not prevent the train from reaching the junction, where the collision occurred. OTDR analysis indicates that wheel slide was present both when the driver applied service braking and after emergency braking was demanded. This was almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the train’s wheels and the rails.
 

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