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XC down from 9 coach to 4, packed and 1st Class not declassified

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Mogz

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On a late running 7:57 XC service from
Banbury heading south.

25 minutes late.

Down from 9 coaches to 4.

Jammed in the vestibule next to the First Class coach.

First Class is largely empty with a total of 6 passengers.

Announcements apologising for the overcrowding.

Those asking if First can be declassified are being told “no” because it’s not fair on those who have paid for First Class tickets.

Surely if they declassified they could just refund the six First Class ticket holders the relevant portion of their fare?
 
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Nova1

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I suppose XC services are so regularly full and standing that they've got to be careful with how many times they declassify first....

although it's train crew discretion...
 

Class800

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Would be best if there is a set company policy as it's so discretionary - doesn't seem right to have some people standing and some seats empty. But I am not a businessman and never will be
 

Amlag

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There is of course the option for those standing to upgrade to First class for their journey or part of it ..and they will likely be offered free refreshments too !

I recently witnessed this option taken on a ' wedged' 4 coach XC Voyager by a Standard passenger between Taunton and Exeter.
 

robbeech

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Those asking if First can be declassified are being told “no” because it’s not fair on those who have paid for First Class tickets.

Surely if they declassified they could just refund the six First Class ticket holders the relevant portion of their fare?

There is of course the option for those standing to upgrade to First class for their journey or part of it ..and they will likely be offered free refreshments too !
I think @Mogz you answered your own query when you said they could just refund those 6. Why? Why would they do that and reduce revenue?

And of course the potential for a couple of upgrades with the commission that goes with it means there’s even less incentive to declassify.
To use an extreme example, someone might have an anytime return (SOR) from Banbury to Southampton and decide to upgrade to the FOR. That’s just over £100 excess.
 

paddy1

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The answer is for XC to run trains of the length they should be running them and this would negate whether there is a need to de-classify first class in these situations.

Now that XC are only running one train an hour on Manchester - Birmingham/South Coast and West Country - North East routes instead of the normal half hourly service on each (with four or five car trains), then there is no reason (excuse) for these trains not to be running in double formation. That way, although there is the inconvenience of loss of frequency and through service, at least the doubling up compensates to an extent for this. However, I notice that this doubling up is not happening as and when it should be, at least on the Birmingham to Manchester on Sundays. Clearly, from what others have posted, this is also happening on the West Country - North East route as well.

Sunday is one of the busiest days on XC routes but I noticed that quite a few services on this route are formed of only four or five cars. Sometimes, when there is a double unit in use, one of them is locked out of use. All in all, this low frequency/short trains/ trains locked out of use etc results in some quite horrendous overcrowding, passengers crammed into vestibules etc, and is totally avoidable and unnecessary. XC are blatantly taking advantage of the situation to reduce their costs/boost profits, which they wouldn't be able to do if they were still obligated to run the half hourly service of 2 x 4/5 cars. I am not talking end of day lightly used services here. This is happening on busy Sunday afternoon and into the early and mid evening services and happens every Sunday, so it's not as if it hasn't been foreseen and XC are not aware of it.

BTW - XC are not the only operator to exploit the running double units to compensate for reduced frequency principle. LNWR also run the Birmingham - Liverpool service as four car only on a Sunday instead the eight car that it is in the week. which results in similar overcrowding on that route. It does mean that passengers travelling north of Birmingham to either Manchester or Liverpool are being doubly cheated and 'mugged off', as the reduction in frequency is not being offset by the use of longer trains on either service. The same is clearly happening south of Birmingham on the XC Manchester originating trains that continue to Reading/Southampton/Bournemouth.

DB (German Railways), that run XC, would never treat, or get away with, doing this in Germany, where long distance trains linking key regional centres are run with full length 'proper' Intercity trains. The same applies with Abellio (Dutch Railways), who run LNWR Birmingham - Liverpool trains.

XC clearly don't care and I guess the Government don't either as they are footing the bill right now.
 
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Watershed

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It was supposed to be. However the unit failed on the depot. But don't let the facts get in the way of a rant.
But if a booked double set is shortformed, and the train is overcrowded, First should be declassified. Refusing to do so is poor customer service and exactly the kind of "penny wise, pound foolish" attitude that gives the railway its bad reputation.
 

kristiang85

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Even though XC are the best route up north for me, I avoid them like the plague now as it is always an unpleasant experience. Even when I get a seat reservation, most of the time it doesn't seem to be honoured.

I much prefer the extra hour in going via London and getting Avanti.
 

Starmill

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On one occasion I was even left behind by a CrossCountry service which had four coaches, one of which was First Class, because First Class remained for First Class ticket holders only.

CrossCountry had to pay out compensation for the delay to my journey, and everyone I was travelling with, as a result. Maybe they'd rather do that than declassify First?
 

Bletchleyite

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On one occasion I was even left behind by a CrossCountry service which had four coaches, one of which was First Class, because First Class remained for First Class ticket holders only.

CrossCountry had to pay out compensation for the delay to my journey, and everyone I was travelling with, as a result. Maybe they'd rather do that than declassify First?

To be fair it wasn't just them. When TPE was just 185s they did the same thing, and it stank then, too.

XC has been an issue for, what, 20 years now? There really needs to be a plan to fix it, even if it's just the 222s for now.

Moderator note: Suggestions to improve CrossCountry services can be discussed at the following thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-can-crosscountry-realistically-be-improved.224769/
 
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Roast Veg

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On one occasion I was even left behind by a CrossCountry service which had four coaches, one of which was First Class, because First Class remained for First Class ticket holders only.

CrossCountry had to pay out compensation for the delay to my journey, and everyone I was travelling with, as a result. Maybe they'd rather do that than declassify First?
I have a thread on the same in the fares advice section. Though XC agreed to shell out for delay repay, they did say that the overcrowding wasn't even reported by the train crew. Has it become so commonplace that staff just don't bother reporting it any more?
 

Watershed

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To be fair it wasn't just them. When TPE was just 185s they did the same thing, and it stank then, too.

XC has been an issue for, what, 20 years now? There really needs to be a plan to fix it, even if it's just the 222s for now.
Overcrowding on XC is, fortunately, not as much of an issue as it used to be. However there's a lot of surpressed demand (due to the service being massively reduced and services on busy days showing as "sold out"), which can only be addressed with additional stock.

But that is a separate issue to when a train is actually shortformed.
 

dk1

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I suppose XC services are so regularly full and standing that they've got to be careful with how many times they declassify first....

although it's train crew discretion...
That's just it. Not fair on those in 1st and standard class passengers then expect it. If more 1st class passengers then board down the line, would those interlopers then give up their seats?
 

Starmill

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That's just it. Not fair on those in 1st and standard class passengers then expect it. If more 1st class passengers then board down the line, would those interlopers then give up their seats?
To be fair they may simply be unable to board if thr train is short formed. It's not that unusual.
 

seagull

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The short-forming of Cross Country services is certainly very undesirable at the moment with the reduced frequency and the huge recovery in leisure traffic.

One thing I would say is that while it's easy to imagine that declassification of 1st would solve things, in my experience it rarely did, as the extra seats might only (assuming a 1/3-1/2 full 1st already) cater for around 10-15 passengers at best. One solution I occasionally employed many years ago was to offer a cheap upgrade (in person, not via the PA system) to a few: this had the benefits of being able to retain a 1st class service (or Club Class as it was) for those who had paid, as well as allowing a few more passengers a seat and a bargain, and a bit of revenue for the company. No idea if that's still allowed these days, mind you.
 

WelshBluebird

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The short-forming of Cross Country services is certainly very undesirable at the moment with the reduced frequency and the huge recovery in leisure traffic.

One thing I would say is that while it's easy to imagine that declassification of 1st would solve things, in my experience it rarely did, as the extra seats might only (assuming a 1/3-1/2 full 1st already) cater for around 10-15 passengers at best. One solution I occasionally employed many years ago was to offer a cheap upgrade (in person, not via the PA system) to a few: this had the benefits of being able to retain a 1st class service (or Club Class as it was) for those who had paid, as well as allowing a few more passengers a seat and a bargain, and a bit of revenue for the company. No idea if that's still allowed these days, mind you.
At least in my experience of travelling on rammed XC services, it isn't specifically the extra seats in first class that would help, more just the extra room for people to stand. There have been numerous examples I've seen where people have literally been unable to board. Surely declassification of first class would have meant in those cases people would have been able to board?
 

Starmill

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There have been numerous examples I've seen where people have literally been unable to board.
Yes, there's a wheelchair bay, aisle by First Class seating and the vestibule behind the cab which you're not permitted to stand in if you hold a Standard Class ticket, unless you are given special permission. Even if that means you cannot board. That's just how they operate.

Maybe they think it's cheaper to pay delay compensation to Standard ticket holders than paying partial refunds to First ticket holders?
 

peter166

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Even during the Covid reduced XC timetable 1S45 09.27 Plymouth to Aberdeen is a 5 car unit (sometimes even a 4 car unit) for its whole journey and is frequently quite severely overcrowded, particularly from Bristol.
 

stuu

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At least in my experience of travelling on rammed XC services, it isn't specifically the extra seats in first class that would help, more just the extra room for people to stand. There have been numerous examples I've seen where people have literally been unable to board. Surely declassification of first class would have meant in those cases people would have been able to board?
When I used to catch the 1745 from Bristol in the evenings, it was not unusual for passengers to stand in the first class carriage rather than be left behind. A couple of times I ended up in first class because I was stood in the vestibule and so many people were pushing on that there wasn't much choice about it
 

Mikey C

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To be fair it wasn't just them. When TPE was just 185s they did the same thing, and it stank then, too.

XC has been an issue for, what, 20 years now? There really needs to be a plan to fix it, even if it's just the 222s for now.
It happened to me once on TPE (after a cancellation) and on the rammed next service I just sat in 1st. Nobody said anything!
 

talltim

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It was supposed to be. However the unit failed on the depot. But don't let the facts get in the way of a rant.
If it failed on the depot, then they should send out a different unit. And if they haven't got enough units then they shouldn't be running a train service. They are the ones who decided to bid for the franchise
 

greyman42

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On a late running 7:57 XC service from
Banbury heading south.

25 minutes late.

Down from 9 coaches to 4.

Jammed in the vestibule next to the First Class coach.

First Class is largely empty with a total of 6 passengers.

Announcements apologising for the overcrowding.

Those asking if First can be declassified are being told “no” because it’s not fair on those who have paid for First Class tickets.

Surely if they declassified they could just refund the six First Class ticket holders the relevant portion of their fare?
How would you refund the first class passengers?
 

nw1

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How would you refund the first class passengers?
Controversially, maybe not bother. Standard passengers do not get refunded if they have to stand; why should First class passengers have to be refunded if standard holders are allowed into their space?

Standard passengers are told that overcrowding is just part of life; so First class ticket holders just need to accept that it may occasionally, in times of disruption, be necessary to allow standard class ticket holders into their space.
 

Bletchleyite

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How would you refund the first class passengers?

If First Class is declassified any passenger on that train with a First Class ticket can claim a refund of the difference from customer services. But perhaps a "good service" version would be to hand out a voucher for a free upgrade of any length.
 

John Luxton

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My view is if someone has stumped up extra for First for more spacious travelling and pleasurable travelling conditions they should not under any circumstances have to endure the hordes from Standard being allowed to pour in without paying.
 

Starmill

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Controversially, maybe not bother.
The conditions of travel make it a requirement for partial refunds to paid to First Class ticket holders if First Class is declassified.

My view is if someone has stumped up extra for First for more spacious travelling and pleasurable travelling conditions they should not under any circumstances have to endure the hordes from Standard being allowed to pour in without paying.
They could of course receive their partial refund in exceptional circumstances.
 

RJ

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In these situations it's never going to be possible to please everybody. There are a contingent of people who beeline for First on busy trains and pressure the traincrew to declassify it. I've heard on more than a few occasions from TMs that they won't on principle if a passenger asks them to. Usually when there is space elsewhere on the train.

Anyone who wants to be in First should obtain a valid ticket - it doesn't even have to be expensive. And leave the TM to their professional judgement as to how to handle loadings on their train - I see them doing their best to try and get everybody on.

As pro-rail as I am I do my best to avoid perennially overcrowded routes. Short forms or not XC trains are often very busy!
 
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