Class 315 preservation society

[prod_pep]

The banning of photos of 820's scrap move on the society's Facebook page as it is 'upsetting' is rather bewildering to me, even as someone who tends to get attached to specific units.

The loss of 820 may be a blessing in disguise: it has bought them time to get their affairs in order and raise more cash - desperately needed if their recent 'rallying cry' posts are anything to go by - and saved potentially several months of storage fees from taking a unit not amongst the last to go.

Honestly, 315820 was nothing special in terms of ride quality anyway. It would be better to take one of the very last to be withdrawn.

 

[Cowley]

£60k for road haulage ? Thats a bit steep isnt it for just 4 coaches ?

15k including VAT per coach seems like a fair price for a specialist haulier to take something like this on.

 

[357]

They also mention paying for the wheel lathe to be taken out of use at Ilford in order for the unit to be loaded.

One does question why they didn't work this out before the move was scheduled... They cite legal issues but it seems more of a technical issue or simple incompetence to me!

I wonder if they looked at using the loading pad at Romford ROC...

 

[Sm5]

Pity they couldnt be towed round to Southall, its hardly busy there these days.

 

[O L Leigh]

Not yet, todays move saw 57310 taking 315819 only. 820 has, much to the delight of some, had a last minute reprieve.

And how long do you expect that to last? Eversholt and Ilford EMUD are not going to want to have it hanging around indefinitely. I don't see them getting things sorted in time for 820, and I'm not sure that they'll manage to get a whole unit at all from the remaining fleet at the rate they're going. As I mentioned already, the clock is ticking and there is a very real possibility that they will end this episode empty-handed.

The banning of photos of 820's scrap move on the society's Facebook page as it is 'upsetting' is rather bewildering to me, even as someone who tends to get attached to specific units.

You see, it's this sort of thing that gives me pause about the whole scenario. They don't seem to be running this like a business or doing much in the way of courting potential sponsors. I really don't see how they are going to raise the funds needed to secure a unit and transport it to any location in the time they have left.

I have a link to these trains and might have been willing to make a donation, but I know that anything I could afford would just be a drop in a huge ocean. If I felt that they had any realistic chance then I might be more willing to help out, but I just don't. I think they're going to have to seriously consider scaling back their ambitions.

 

[43096]

They also mention paying for the wheel lathe to be taken out of use at Ilford in order for the unit to be loaded.

The middle of leaf fall/tyre turning season is not a time for that.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It's a different niche from the Mark 3s granted, but certainly comparable - to many enthusiasts a 90 isn't considered that appealling, certainly not when there's tours with 37s and the like available, but LSL have still managed to sell it out a few times a year. Nothing to say a 315 working local tours couldn't be sold out a few times a year too - I note the BLS have run two sold out tours on the Tyne & Wear Metro using regular Metro units, if a pair of Metro units can be sold out on a tour of their normal stomping ground I'm sure a 315 could too.

Sorry, but nearly all of that is incorrect. There has been 1 Class 90 hauled charter operated by LSL using their InterCity Mk 3s and it wasn't even this year. They have used a 90 on Statesman tours but they're not aimed at enthusiasts. BLS tours run on unusual track. I was unaware of their Metro tour but I think it is fairly safe to say it visited a depot or some other track not used by normal services and all the participants will have booked for the rare track, not the units. A preserved 315 has absolutely no possible future on the mainline. As has been mentioned, it could possibly fill a couple of times but it definitely wouldn't pay its way.

 

[DanNCL]

You may already be aware, but the BLS are a very particular crowd with a very niche interest. Traction really doesn't do it for them. But if the T&W Metrocars were going places they don't usually go with passengers onboard then you can guarantee a sell-out.

Indeed, but it just goes to show that with the right itinerary you can fill a tour worked by just about anything.

Sorry, but nearly all of that is incorrect. There has been 1 Class 90 hauled charter operated by LSL using their InterCity Mk 3s and it wasn't even this year. They have used a 90 on Statesman tours but they're not aimed at enthusiasts. BLS tours run on unusual track. I was unaware of their Metro tour but I think it is fairly safe to say it visited a depot or some other track not used by normal services and all the participants will have booked for the rare track, not the units. A preserved 315 has absolutely no possible future on the mainline. As has been mentioned, it could possibly fill a couple of times but it definitely wouldn't pay its way.

They’ve certainly advertised a lot more than just one charter with 90-hauled Mark 3s...

If used with itineraries that include some unusual track (enthusiast charters often do regardless of what they’re worked by) they could certainly fill a 315 a few times a year. Obviously they’re not going to be able to fill a 315 operated tour every day but nobody was suggesting that.

There’s only so many trips between Liverpool Street and Shenfield that can be done before everyone gets bored, but a 315 in BR Blue and Grey has a lot more potential than that, as it could be used to replicate a 313 or 314 working under the wires from the same era too, adding many more tour possibilities, not to mention areas where PEP stock have never operated.

Heritage units on the mainline rarely does pay its way and relies heavily on donations, but it can be made to work as groups such as the Hastings Diesels group have shown with their Thumper which has been available for mainline tours for over 20 years now. There are naturally differences between keeping a DMU running and keeping an EMU running but there’s enough of an electrified network in the UK that it could be made to work without too much additional hassle compared to a DMU.

 

[Mothball]

The reality is, once the novelty has worn off, any future tours are going to be primarily be aimed at 315 enthusiasts, considering its proving difficult purely to fund the initial move of all 4 vehicles into preservation, I dont see how the group are planning on funding the expensive maintenance costs in the long term.

Also it needs to be factored in that the units intended home is not electrified, and the longer it sits there off the wires, the more expensive its return to the mainline will become. On top of the costs of another road haulage.

I'm all for preservation, and even though I dont see it happening realistically, I hope the group prove me wrong, however I would rather see one carriage, preserved static in good condition rather than see 4 derelict carriages. If there is no money to initially preserve an entire unit then there will not be any money to keep in maintained for the next 20 years,

 

[Sm5]

Deleted

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Don't forget, a complete PEP unit has been earmarked for preservation at the NRM; 313.201. Assume this is still the plan?

If a pan is retrofitted for display purposes than what's the outward difference between a 313 and a 315? Better to have one on static display in a museum than one rusting in a outdoor siding somewhere with no cash or manpower forthcoming

Assuming of course, that the NRM will look after it and not leave it to rot somewhere like the 306.

 

[357]

Only way out of ilford by road is via the wheel lathe to take it out of action is near 20K then 4 HGV'S ex IL to mid wales thats 8bdruvers and 2 escort vehicles.

According to their FB group, 20k to take the lathe out of action for the time required to load the trucks...

 

[pdeaves]

What's so special about 315820 specifically? What's it got that the others haven't?

 

[JonathanH]

What's so special about 315820 specifically? What's it got that the others haven't?

A 0 on the end I imagine.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Don't forget, a complete PEP unit has been earmarked for preservation at the NRM; 313.201. Assume this is still the plan?

If a pan is retrofitted for display purposes than what's the outward difference between a 313 and a 315? Better to have one on static display in a museum than one rusting in a outdoor siding somewhere with no cash or manpower forthcoming

Assuming of course, that the NRM will look after it and not leave it to rot somewhere like the 306.

Ans it is likely that a 314 will be around for some time to come in the guise of the Hydrogen Propulsion Experimental unit 614209, I dare say that this could be preserved as it should be considered historically significant. (and it is already based at a preservation site with experience of being able to properly look after another unit, the class 303). I would think that the fact that it does not have its original traction equipment would not matter to the average enthusiast never mind the general public.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Indeed, but it just goes to show that with the right itinerary you can fill a tour worked by just about anything.


They’ve certainly advertised a lot more than just one charter with 90-hauled Mark 3s...

If used with itineraries that include some unusual track (enthusiast charters often do regardless of what they’re worked by) they could certainly fill a 315 a few times a year. Obviously they’re not going to be able to fill a 315 operated tour every day but nobody was suggesting that.

There’s only so many trips between Liverpool Street and Shenfield that can be done before everyone gets bored, but a 315 in BR Blue and Grey has a lot more potential than that, as it could be used to replicate a 313 or 314 working under the wires from the same era too, adding many more tour possibilities, not to mention areas where PEP stock have never operated.

Heritage units on the mainline rarely does pay its way and relies heavily on donations, but it can be made to work as groups such as the Hastings Diesels group have shown with their Thumper which has been available for mainline tours for over 20 years now. There are naturally differences between keeping a DMU running and keeping an EMU running but there’s enough of an electrified network in the UK that it could be made to work without too much additional hassle compared to a DMU.

Yes, InterCity have advertised more than 1 Class 90 tour - and they have been cancelled due to low bookings. So that hardly supports your argument that if a 90 can sell out tours a 315 can does it?

Most of you comments are could or might. None are based on reason and you comparison of this preservation group and a 315 to a DEMU and the Hastings Diesel Group just shows your naivety.

 

[DanNCL]

Most of you comments are could or might. None are based on reason and you comparison of this preservation group and a 315 to a DEMU and the Hastings Diesel Group just shows your naivety.

You can only work on coulds and mights for something like this, that’s how it works. It’s a project that’s not been done before, it’s a learning curve for everyone.

 

[Bertie the bus]

coup de gras, bin it, dont bother.

I agree wholeheartedly. Just scrap it. A 315 is of no historical interest, it is of no use to mainline tour operators, is of very limited use to heritage railways, and an example of a PEP is being preserved by the NRM anyway. All this unit will do is rot away in some obscure location and end up being scrapped anyway.

 

[Sm5]

Deleted

 

[A0wen]

Care to look back in history and suggest that retrospectively and suggest what else could be scrapped… 20/4/5/6/7 seem to be a glut, sitting out of use, D8000 could tell the story of all type2’s, NRM selected it to.

I know nothing of the 315 group, but i’m not going to slate anyone for trying.

Its easy to be weak and give up, and even weaker to slate someone for trying.

We didnt build an empire and invent railways in the first place by sitting at the docks laughing at people building a ship, with a plan to sail into the blue without a map or knowledge if anything was out there worth finding, or waiting to eat them…but consider your living here today off the inherited wealth of their efforts…not sat under a tree hunting for food unable to read or write.

The difference is those Type 2 diesels can all be used for various trains on heritage lines with no need for additional infrastructure. Which is why so many of them have survived.

The question being asked is quite correct - what's special about a 315 ? It's of little or no use to a heritage railway. To "Joe Public" it looks just like any of the other PEP EMUs - the 313 is the most "interesting" of all of them because of their dual voltage design whereas the other variants were more standard.

EMU preservation struggles, because it's very difficult to find a practical use for them - and as a result they tend to sitting rotting away on the sidings of various heritage railways. When a genuinely historic unit like the 4DD has suffered that fate for many years, what hope for something less significant ?

 

[Sm5]

Deleted

 

[A0wen]

Rocket, Lion, Coppernob, Locomotion no1 all had the same fate for decades, maybe as much as 100 years until they were recognised.

Not really comparable though in terms of the development of the railways. The class 315 is a pretty "bog standard" mid 70s EMU built in reasonable numbers. Those early steam locos were neglected until their value in telling the story of the railways was realised.

10000/1/201/2/3/DP2 etc all had the same worthy status as a type 2.. no need of infrastructure, and usable on heritage lines… yet no one saved them… today they are lamented, even trying to recreate some of them.D600/D61xx even made it into 1980.., 7096/D8243 etc into the late 1980’s after several diesels had been preserved, I saw them myself… if they were still here there is no way they’d be scrapped (indeed 7096 might have even been restored from those NHS power units). Look how hard its been for the movement to ultimately give up on 45015….

No ones going to scrap 18000.. yet its no more useful than a 315.

But…
The reason they dont exist is pretty much the same suggested here.. no interest, no heritage value, no commercial value, too complicated, easy to be a critic, other things are more interesting etc…

Difference is in the 1960-90’s you didnt have to read it on the internet, so the message was far less destructive, and in future people will be able to look back and read those comments, to understand why & who made those things fail, but whilst proclaiming to be a hobbist supporter, by demonstration of their contributing to such online mediums in the first place… Thats a future dissertation in itself.

The point is the early diesels were being scrapped before the preservation movement and more particularly the diesel preservation movement found its feet. DP2 was a written off, so that one doesn't really count either.

18000 is a 'stuffed and mounted' loco now - but it's not beyond possible to return it to running order, though I doubt it will ever happen.

7096 was broken up because it was beyond restoration *however* it meant that the restoration of 7076 was viable. There are other examples of a diesel loco being broken up to provide spares for the restoration of others.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Rocket, Lion, Coppernob, Locomotion no1 all had the same fate for decades, maybe as much as 100 years until they were recognised.



10000/1/201/2/3/DP2 etc all had the same worthy status as a type 2.. no need of infrastructure, and usable on heritage lines… yet no one saved them… today they are lamented, even trying to recreate some of them.D600/D61xx even made it into 1980.., 7096/D8243 etc into the late 1980’s after several diesels had been preserved, I saw them myself… if they were still here there is no way they’d be scrapped (indeed 7096 might have even been restored from those NHS power units). Look how hard its been for the movement to ultimately give up on 45015….

No ones going to scrap 18000.. yet its no more useful than a 315.

But…
The reason they dont exist is pretty much the same suggested here.. no interest, no heritage value, no commercial value, too complicated, easy to be a critic, other things are more interesting etc…

Difference is in the 1960-90’s you didnt have to read it on the internet, so the message was far less destructive, and in future people will be able to look back and read those comments, to understand why & who made those things fail, but whilst proclaiming to be a hobbist supporter, by demonstration of their contributing to such online mediums in the first place… Thats a future dissertation in itself.

Well, if you feel that strongly, feel free to make a very generous contribution to the 315 preservation society and have a go at getting it working on a heritage line

 

[O L Leigh]

You can only work on coulds and mights for something like this, that’s how it works. It’s a project that’s not been done before, it’s a learning curve for everyone.

Including, it would seem, learning how to fund raise.

I had a look at their website last night to see what was what and discovered that they were auctioning some interesting stuff. There's a Cl315 destination blind and a flame-cut number from the front of 317651 (I think) as well as all sorts of branded homeware and other items. And yet none of this stuff is on eBay where it will get a lot more interest and be likely to command much higher prices. When you've got such a huge target to hit, why would you hobble yourself like that?

 

[DanNCL]

Including, it would seem, learning how to fund raise.

I had a look at their website last night to see what was what and discovered that they were auctioning some interesting stuff. There's a Cl315 destination blind and a flame-cut number from the front of 317651 (I think) as well as all sorts of branded homeware and other items. And yet none of this stuff is on eBay where it will get a lot more interest and be likely to command much higher prices. When you've got such a huge target to hit, why would you hobble yourself like that?

Indeed. I’m amazed they’re not using sites like eBay to raise money, they’d raise a lot more cash much quicker if they did.

 

[StephenHunter]

Yes, InterCity have advertised more than 1 Class 90 tour - and they have been cancelled due to low bookings. So that hardly supports your argument that if a 90 can sell out tours a 315 can does it?

Most of you comments are could or might. None are based on reason and you comparison of this preservation group and a 315 to a DEMU and the Hastings Diesel Group just shows your naivety.

Might Covid not be a factor in the Class 90 tour cancellations?

 

[Bertie the bus]

It really isn’t important if Covid played a part. You have someone making outlandish claims and then you have facts. Comparing this 315 preservation group with a company owned by the incredibly wealthy Jeremy Hosking is just a joke. If he wants to spend some of his fortune playing trains then that is what he will do. This group can’t even afford a unit gifted to them for nothing. This whole 315 preservation and what it could or might do in the future is a fantasy.

 

[DanNCL]

Might Covid not be a factor in the Class 90 tour cancellations?

It was entirely down to covid restrictions.

It really isn’t important if Covid played a part. You have someone making outlandish claims and then you have facts. Comparing this 315 preservation group with a company owned by the incredibly wealthy Jeremy Hosking is just a joke. If he wants to spend some of his fortune playing trains then that is what he will do. This group can’t even afford a unit gifted to them for nothing. This whole 315 preservation and what it could or might do in the future is a fantasy.

It’s very important as it disproves your argument about them not being sellable.

You’re entitled to your opinion and I respect that, please respect my difference of opinion rather than branding it “just a joke”.

 

[StephenHunter]

Who says it was gifted to them?

 

[theblackwatch]

It really isn’t important if Covid played a part. You have someone making outlandish claims and then you have facts. Comparing this 315 preservation group with a company owned by the incredibly wealthy Jeremy Hosking is just a joke. If he wants to spend some of his fortune playing trains then that is what he will do. This group can’t even afford a unit gifted to them for nothing. This whole 315 preservation and what it could or might do in the future is a fantasy.

It was entirely down to covid restrictions.


It’s very important as it disproves your argument about them not being sellable.

You’re entitled to your opinion and I respect that, please respect my difference of opinion rather than branding it “just a joke”.

The proof will be in the action. Perhaps we should revisit this in 12 or 24 months and see who is correct? In the meantime, I hope the group raises its small sum of £60K (which its what it is, compared to how much more will be needed for them to fulfill their aims and ensure the long-term survival of the unit).