How can CrossCountry realistically be improved?

[AlterEgo]

Cross country have not had enough units since day one, nor did Virgin

Why do you think that is?

 

[stevetay3]

Why do you think that is?

Profit

 

[O L Leigh]

Profit

So the number of units allocated to Virgin/Arriva XC, which is a figure decided by the DfT, is to do with the parent company's bottom line...?

 

[superalbs]

Seats in the luggage rack area would make a very dark and dingy ambience, given the lack of windows there which wouldn't be popular with passengers. The Avanti ones have already been refurbed to a pleasant state so that will be a good start. Converting some FC to standard could be a solution though.

Would a lounge style area work in the luggage rack? Might be good for groups on shorter trips.

 

[stevetay3]

So the number of units allocated to Virgin/Arriva XC, which is a figure decided by the DfT, is to do with the parent company's bottom line...?

Probably it’s not just arriva, it’s all of them just motivated with making profit for shareholders and to hell with the service.

 

[O L Leigh]

Probably it’s not just arriva, it’s all of them just motivated with making profit for shareholders and to hell with the service.

I think you need to read a bit more about how the railways actually work, the relationship between the DfT and the franchisees, and how all this relates to the service you see out on the network.

 

[Mikey C]

Seats in the luggage rack area would make a very dark and dingy ambience, given the lack of windows there which wouldn't be popular with passengers. The Avanti ones have already been refurbed to a pleasant state so that will be a good start. Converting some FC to standard could be a solution though.

The 80x have seats with no windows (due to the door pockets), so it wouldn't be unique

I wouldn't want a seat without a window, but someone wanting to sleep or just watch their screen might quite like it

 

[Roast Veg]

There are many ways to avoid Cross Country on most routes if you are not in a hurry, most likely will be cheaper as well. High time this awful operator is removed if it can not or will not operate the service to a reasonable level.

The XC effect is still keenly felt between Cheltenham and Derby, and every service that overlaps with it. What I wouldn't give for the Open Access Cardiff-Leicester-Leeds Ianno87 suggested in the speculative ideas thread...

 

[The Planner]

XC should go everywhere, Voyagers are bad and smell, windows, bring back HSTs, thread ends.

 

[diffident]

XC should go everywhere, Voyagers are bad and smell, windows, bring back HSTs, thread ends.

I agree with this sentiment, and the blame surely can be traced back over 20 years.

I remember in the early 2000's travelling regularly between Brighton and Birmingham direct on a Voyager. Even then they would almost always be rammed. My recollection was that the plan was for shorter trains on an increased frequency.

It appears that no future passenger increase was factored in.

Then when the proverbial hit the fan I think around 2004, services started to be curtailed - Brighton was abandoned for one. (I've never understood it, as the service was always busy to and from Brighton).

So, my view is the problems being witnessed today with XC, were extant when the vehicles were delivered, and therefore the fault is with whoever planned that. Like with the Pendolino's, the problem should have been identified then and additional carriages AND more units ordered.

That said, as it stands today, both the DfT and the TOC are culpable here. DfT for doing absolutely nothing which in itself is a scandal, and the TOC for not pressuring the DfT to sort the situation, and merrily cracking on pocketing their service fees.

 

[option]

Both these XC services were full and some standing at Oxford and they were 8 car services.

Realtime Trains - 1217 Southampton Central to Manchester Piccadilly

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 1427 Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Central

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This has been said before but the Voyagers are very inefficiently spaced trains. Only 3/4 of the coach have seats, the rest is the luggage racks, the bicycle racks that used to be the buffet area and the disabled loos with little standing room.
XC will recieve Avanti's Voyagers and potentially some 222s but then it's a matter of the limited capacity all over the country to run more services when needed.

Luggage racks that are heavily used

Given what has been discussed in other threads, there should be significant environmental concerns about increasing the number of coaches on CrossCountry services, that need to be taken into account. A better option than taking on more units is using the 220 and 221 fleet on the parts of the route which need to run and removing operation under the wires as much as possible

The 'need to run' parts are all of it.
As for not running under the wires, where would that be? Should they stop at Bromsgrove & magically re-appear at Water Orton? Stop running to Newcastle? Stop running through Bristol when that gets done?

Will they?

Although often speculated on here and elsewhere I'm pretty sure that no proposals, decision or announcements have been made by either DfT, XC or the relevant Rosco, Beacon Rail (class 221) or Eversholt (class 222).

If XC don't take them on, who would?
XC already have a majority of the 221s, & all the 220s, which are also Beacon Rail. I expect a deal could be easily reached on the 20 sets that will become available.

It would be a relatively cheap win for the DfT/Gov, as it would increase capacity & reliability without infrastructure or new train spend (electrification or bi-modes)

 

[Watershed]

The 'need to run' parts are all of it.

Are they? XC used to run to Liverpool, Brighton and Weymouth. They don't anymore, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

I do think XC has an important role to play in providing interregional connectivity but it would be wrong to suggest that all of the links they provide are vital - or indeed that their stock/crew/funding could not be put to better use by reshaping the timetable to prioritise bigger markets.

As for not running under the wires, where would that be? Should they stop at Bromsgrove & magically re-appear at Water Orton? Stop running to Newcastle? Stop running through Bristol when that gets done?

I think the suggestion is that they wouldn't run north of York or Newcastle, or between Birmingham and Manchester.

Both would inconvenience passengers, and the latter service would certainly require replacement in some form. The question is whether the environmental damage caused by the Voyagers justifies keeping that under-the-wires running.

If XC don't take them on, who would?

Who's to say that anyone will? We've already seen perfectly "good" units go to storage/scrap. It wouldn't be the first time.

I expect a deal could be easily reached on the 20 sets that will become available.

I'm sure that a deal could be reached. The bigger question is how ready the Treasury are to open their chequebook...

It would be a relatively cheap win for the DfT/Gov, as it would increase capacity & reliability without infrastructure or new train spend (electrification or bi-modes)

The wet lease on 100 coaches isn't exactly going to be cheap...

As the West Midlands and Greater Anglia franchises showed, buying new can also be cheaper than keeping an existing fleet.

 

[6Gman]

I do not miss the point, surely an early morning peak hour service can be doubled up at short notice in the event of a failure The OPs service was peak time

Not if there isn't a unit there.

It would be nice if there were spare units scattered around the system.

But there aren't.

Because the DfT has specified a service and the operator is obliged to meet that requirement under normal circumstances.

Nothing more.

 

[Djgr]

Are they? XC used to run to Liverpool, Brighton and Weymouth. They don't anymore, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

No but it remains a real inconvenience for Liverpool travellers, due to other people's incompetence.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The issue is that the franchise really needed to have been let at the time it was due rather than being constantly rolled over while the DfT kicked the can further and further down the road. XC is running it's services to a specification set, what, something like 13 years ago.

I was thinking about this the other day, and speculating to myself what would happen now. Richard Branson and co brought in 180odd seat 220s and 230odd seat 221s to run a half hourly vice an hourly 7 coach service. The seat were probably just about par and certainly didn't factor in the sparks effect. But more worryingly crewing increased from 1 driver to 2, 1 TM to 2 and 4 onboard staff from just the one. Massively more staff for roughly thre same number of seats in what initially appeared to be popular new shiny trains.

Even worse on the WC franchise, but just exactly how was Richard Branson allowed to bring in 8 car pendolini where half the train was First class seats. As we know the 8s became 9s, then some became 11s but it really wasn't a very clever business plan from what I remember.

 

[Ianno87]

No but it remains a real inconvenience for Liverpool travellers, due to other people's incompetence.

So inconvenient that they get a half-hourly LNWR Birmingham service instead, which is more useful for the majority of travellers.

 

[domcoop7]

I agree with this sentiment, and the blame surely can be traced back over 20 years.

I remember in the early 2000's travelling regularly between Brighton and Birmingham direct on a Voyager. Even then they would almost always be rammed. My recollection was that the plan was for shorter trains on an increased frequency.

It appears that no future passenger increase was factored in.

Then when the proverbial hit the fan I think around 2004, services started to be curtailed - Brighton was abandoned for one. (I've never understood it, as the service was always busy to and from Brighton).

So, my view is the problems being witnessed today with XC, were extant when the vehicles were delivered, and therefore the fault is with whoever planned that. Like with the Pendolino's, the problem should have been identified then and additional carriages AND more units ordered.

That said, as it stands today, both the DfT and the TOC are culpable here. DfT for doing absolutely nothing which in itself is a scandal, and the TOC for not pressuring the DfT to sort the situation, and merrily cracking on pocketing their service fees.

It was the plan, Operation Princess. Clockface regular trains intersecting at New Street more frequently than the previous timetable.

It didn't work (and if my memory is correct, it was entirely unworkable and was never going to work) because trying to path in from Aberdeen and Penzance and Brighton and Glasgow to Birmingham and have everything converge at the right time was unrealistic. Add to that shorter but more frequent services means delay amplification can go on exponentially and I believe the Voyagers were full from day one, the Strategic Rail Authority effectively ordered Virgin to go back to the drawing board, with Cross Country being withdrawn on a lot of peripheral routes which remains the position today.

So they went from slow timetable, large capacity HSTs / Mark 2 rakes, to fast timetable, lower capacity Voyagers (but more frequent to make up for them being shorter) and the odd 158 & short-formed HST, to revert to slower timetable, but also not frequent, and also not serving places they used to serve and still lower capacity Voyagers.

I agree the fault is with whoever planned the service in the first place, which was Virgin in this instance. However, when the chance to rectify and / or improvement arose, Virgin was already run on a management contract and the then Strategic Rail Authority called the shots - including them denying Virgin permission to hire in additional HSTs as they wanted them to go to Midland Mainline for "Project Rio". When the franchise went to Arriva, it was on the basis that their bid was not to increase capacity - Virgin also bid with plans for additional carriages, but the bid was rejected.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

The most logical thing to happen when Avanti relinquish their 221’s is for XC to acquire them. No additional driver or TM training, easy to integrate and immediately compatible with existing fleet stock.

222’s are not compatible with multiple working on 220/221 units and would require training and competencies to be factored in.

IET’s are a no-go, seeing the majority of the routes are not electrified.

Unfortunately there’s a lot of talk on this thread by people who don’t work on the railway and with great respect to them, have no idea about how it all works. It’s not just a case of “getting extra coaches” or “replacing a failed unit”… sometimes they are simply not available.

As stated previously, XC are still rolling with a rolling stock contract agreed in 2007…. With rollover after rollover to that agreement it’s not factored customer growth in (which has trebled since 2007)….. getting those 20 Voyagers from Avanti will see an immediate improvement.

 

[JonathanH]

Unfortunately there’s a lot of talk on this thread by people who don’t work on the railway and with great respect to them, have no idea about how it all works. It’s not just a case of “getting extra coaches” or “replacing a failed unit”… sometimes they are simply not available.

As stated previously, XC are still rolling with a rolling stock contract agreed in 2007…. With rollover after rollover to that agreement it’s not factored customer growth in (which has trebled since 2007)….. getting those 20 Voyagers from Avanti will see an immediate improvement.

There's equally a lot of talk in this thread which underestimates the practical issues of taking on as many as 20 extra units from Avanti. It is not a certainty. It will put extra costs on the operation. It requires different maintenance patterns, more paths from depots to first stations, more overnight servicing to be bought in. It requires more staff, more fuel. There is probably some work to do to bring them into line with the existing 221s. It is a whole project to work through.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

I was of course using simple parlance with regards to my predictions, but any cost of acquiring these units would be significantly less than any other options.

Of course, adding 20 units to the fleet doesn’t mean that those 20 sets will be out at any one time. It would allow refurbs of existing sets and give greater redundancy to failures.

 

[diffident]

It was the plan, Operation Princess. Clockface regular trains intersecting at New Street more frequently than the previous timetable.

It didn't work (and if my memory is correct, it was entirely unworkable and was never going to work) because trying to path in from Aberdeen and Penzance and Brighton and Glasgow to Birmingham and have everything converge at the right time was unrealistic. Add to that shorter but more frequent services means delay amplification can go on exponentially and I believe the Voyagers were full from day one, the Strategic Rail Authority effectively ordered Virgin to go back to the drawing board, with Cross Country being withdrawn on a lot of peripheral routes which remains the position today.

So they went from slow timetable, large capacity HSTs / Mark 2 rakes, to fast timetable, lower capacity Voyagers (but more frequent to make up for them being shorter) and the odd 158 & short-formed HST, to revert to slower timetable, but also not frequent, and also not serving places they used to serve and still lower capacity Voyagers.

I agree the fault is with whoever planned the service in the first place, which was Virgin in this instance. However, when the chance to rectify and / or improvement arose, Virgin was already run on a management contract and the then Strategic Rail Authority called the shots - including them denying Virgin permission to hire in additional HSTs as they wanted them to go to Midland Mainline for "Project Rio". When the franchise went to Arriva, it was on the basis that their bid was not to increase capacity - Virgin also bid with plans for additional carriages, but the bid was rejected.

Thanks for the reply @domcoop7, it certainly fits with what I remember... my first few journey's between Birmingham and Brighton were 47's hauling mk2's.... sadly that experience was a whole world better than what then went on in preceding years with the Voyagers!

 

[bussnapperwm]

It's a pity there wasn't any spare EMUS around to cover the New St to Manchester service, leaving Voyagers to cover the South of Brum and Brum - ECML services that XC run

 

[daodao]

It's a pity there wasn't any spare EMUS around to cover the New St to Manchester service, leaving Voyagers to cover the South of Brum and Brum - ECML services that XC run

A good idea. Are not some emus being withdrawn before they are fully life-expired? Could these not be used on the Birmingham New St to Manchester service?

 

[Wolfie]

But surely on a long distance service like XC luggage space is imperative?

Absolutely.

Given what has been discussed in other threads, there should be significant environmental concerns about increasing the number of coaches on CrossCountry services, that need to be taken into account. A better option than taking on more units is using the 220 and 221 fleet on the parts of the route which need to run and removing operation under the wires as much as possible

In principle l agree that diesels shouldn't operate under wires. However, unless you have bimodes that means a fragmented Cross Country service and potentially multiple train changes on one journey. That wouldn't be popular and undermines Cross Country's raison d'etre.

 

[The Planner]

It's a pity there wasn't any spare EMUS around to cover the New St to Manchester service, leaving Voyagers to cover the South of Brum and Brum - ECML services that XC run

We have done this one before as well. It won't necessarily work due to New St. You are now looking for second platforms and how the existing Voyagers interwork. I will ignore the normal "everyone hates changing at New St bit"

 

[Wolfie]

Controversially, maybe not bother. Standard passengers do not get refunded if they have to stand; why should First class passengers have to be refunded if standard holders are allowed into their space?

Standard passengers are told that overcrowding is just part of life; so First class ticket holders just need to accept that it may occasionally, in times of disruption, be necessary to allow standard class ticket holders into their space.

Utter rubbish. Also a good way of completely destroying first class ticket sales and almost certainly guaranteeing litigation.

Is that even feasible given where the exhaust pipes run?

I don't see any substantial refit coming given the parlous finances of the railway and possibly even the short remaining life of these units - it will need to be make do and mend.

That appears quite likely. At best a replication of what Virgin/Avanti did to theirs.

My view is if someone has stumped up extra for First for more spacious travelling and pleasurable travelling conditions they should not under any circumstances have to endure the hordes from Standard being allowed to pour in without paying.

Sorry, "under any circumstances" is way too extreme and removes too much operational flexibility. The snobbish elitist language l'm not going to comment on...

The seating is already unacceptably tight so I doubt an extra row could be packed in without making it as bad as, say, a 150/2.

You are assuming the same seats of the same thickness are used.

 

[Watershed]

We have done this one before as well. It won't necessarily work due to New St. You are now looking for second platforms and how the existing Voyagers interwork. I will ignore the normal "everyone hates changing at New St bit"

Then you extend it through to International or any one of a number of alternative termini (you could even do a circular service that loops round via Aston and Perry Bar).

Realistically, with the reduced service that's likely to persist for the foreseeable future, I don't think that pathing is what's stopping this from happening.

 

[Wolfie]

XC should go everywhere, Voyagers are bad and smell, windows, bring back HSTs, thread ends.

Hahaha.... No use of the last few unscrapped 442s?

Luggage racks that are heavily used




The 'need to run' parts are all of it.
As for not running under the wires, where would that be? Should they stop at Bromsgrove & magically re-appear at Water Orton? Stop running to Newcastle? Stop running through Bristol when that gets done?





If XC don't take them on, who would?
XC already have a majority of the 221s, & all the 220s, which are also Beacon Rail. I expect a deal could be easily reached on the 20 sets that will become available.

It would be a relatively cheap win for the DfT/Gov, as it would increase capacity & reliability without infrastructure or new train spend (electrification or bi-modes)

Presumably the HSTs would go too which would simplify logistics.

 

[The Planner]

Then you extend it through to International or any one of a number of alternative termini (you could even do a circular service that loops round via Aston and Perry Bar).

Realistically, with the reduced service that's likely to persist for the foreseeable future, I don't think that pathing is what's stopping this from happening.

Have a look at the MD301 graph between New St and International. Presumably the service gets given to LNWR? Doubt there are gaps in the Dec 22 re-write either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are assuming the same seats of the same thickness are used.

Have you ever been on a Voyager? The seat pitch is already so tight that I would be surprised if you could get an extra row in even with ironing boards/Fainsa Sophias. Unless you are talking something new and much thinner, but that's a lot of money to spend developing something for poorly-designed middle-aged units which really need a one-way path to a scrapper.