Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

[DustyBin]

A worthwhile read for the anti-vaxxers

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant

www.theguardian.com

What a load of nonsense (as you’d expect from the Guardian).

The anti-vaxxers aren’t going to change their minds, I think we need to accept the fact. Those who have simply chosen to decline the vaccine for the time being may change their minds, but insulting their intelligence with emotive fear mongering rubbish isn’t the way to persuade them to do so.

 

[Peterthegreat]

What a load of nonsense (as you’d expect from the Guardian).

The anti-vaxxers aren’t going to change their minds, I think we need to accept the fact. Those who have simply chosen to decline the vaccine for the time being may change their minds, but insulting their intelligence with emotive fear mongering rubbish isn’t the way to persuade them to do so.

So which bit is nonsense?

 

[Red Onion]

What a load of nonsense (as you’d expect from the Guardian).

The anti-vaxxers aren’t going to change their minds, I think we need to accept the fact. Those who have simply chosen to decline the vaccine for the time being may change their minds, but insulting their intelligence with emotive fear mongering rubbish isn’t the way to persuade them to do so.

It was utter tripe. He says that he hasn’t heard of anyone suffering serious side effects. That’s where he lost me and I don’t know what else he is lying about. I’m nine months down the line with nasty neurological and cardiological side effects which show no sign of abating, my best mate went blind in one eye after his and I know of someone else who developed Bell’s Palsy. There are plenty who have died following them. So to say that he’s never heard of serious side effects makes me question his entire integrity and I don’t really believe a word of the article. It’s all emotion with very little apparent fact.

I am in no way anti vax (otherwise I wouldn’t have had my first) but articles like this fuel the anti vax movement.

 

[DustyBin]

So which bit is nonsense?

Check the official data; it simply doesn’t support the anonymous “respiratory consultant’s” claims.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Check the official data; it simply doesn’t support the anonymous “respiratory consultant’s” claims.

There is a lot of official data. I cannot see anything that contradicts the article. Perhaps you could give me the actual source for your view.

 

[greyman42]

There are plenty who have died following them. So to say that he’s never heard of serious side effects makes me question his entire integrity and I don’t really believe a word of the article.

I think "plenty" is a bit of an exaggeration.

 

[DustyBin]

There is a lot of official data. I cannot see anything that contradicts the article. Perhaps you could give me the actual source for your view.

Let’s start with the opening line:

In hospital, Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated.

Here’s the latest official data:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034383/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-46.pdf

 

[Peterthegreat]

I think "plenty" is a bit of an exaggeration.

Quite. The UK statistical agencies have reported 9 deaths where the vaccine has contributed to the death of which 5 quote the vaccine as the underlying cause.

 

[nedchester]

Let’s start with the opening line:



Here’s the latest official data:

View attachment 105942

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034383/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-46.pdf

Using the raw data is very poor when up to 90% of some of the groups listed are vaccinated, per 100000 is far better. You also have to take into account (as mentioned in the article) severe existing health conditions.

 

[sjpowermac]

Using the raw data is very poor when up to 90% of some of the groups listed are vaccinated, per 100000 is far better. You also have to take into account (as mentioned in the article) severe existing health conditions.

You make a very good point.

To be fair though, from the figures, this quote from the article seems highly unlikely:

Most of the resources that we are devoting to Covid in hospital are now being spent on the unvaccinated.

For the avoidance of doubt, I’m double jabbed and will take the booster, but I’m completely opposed to any restrictions on people who have not taken the vaccine.

 

[brad465]

I'm surprised the media didn't report on this more widely given who was involved, but earlier this week Sajid Javid and journalist David Atherton got into a spat on Twitter about apparent confusion over having a different vaccine as a booster to one's first two doses. Rather than Javid informing Atherton of the correct information, he dismissed him rather rudely:

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1460716716951056395

 

[jfollows]

David Atherton doesn't seem to be much of a journalist if he didn't know that he could have been given either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine as a booster, I had my booster on Friday and I knew that I could have been given either. As it happened, in my case, my booster was the Pfizer vaccine but the necessary research I did in advance of my vaccination took me five minutes at most. By the way, I don't believe a word the government says either, but that's a non-sequitur in his comment also.

EDIT Well, it seems as if some publication called "Catholic Truth" has picked up on this: (https://catholictruthscotland.com/2...disregard-for-damage-caused-by-covid-so-what/) and I should add that it doesn't represent my views in any way (other than a hope that the Conservative Party implodes and never holds power again).

UK Health Secretary’s Contemptuous Disregard For Damage Caused By Covid… So What?

A CONTEMPTUOUS tweet sent by Health Secretary Sajid Javid to journalist David Atherton this week should be seen as a seminal moment in the battle against state tyranny. If Javid’s open disdain fails to open the eyes of those who have complied with Covid insanity from day one, nothing will.
Atherton had tweeted his concern to Javid that whilst his first two jabs had been Pfizer, the offered booster shot was Moderna. The mix-and-match approach to inoculation had clearly rattled him, hence his tweet to the Health Secretary.
Perhaps he sought reassurance, a word of praise for having done his ‘civic duty’. Having followed government instructions to become a protector of the nation’s grannies, he could have expected at the very least a degree of civility from a cabinet minister.
Instead Atherton received a disdain-dripping ‘so what?’ as a response. His legitimate concerns merited no more than a scornful verbal shrug. To add insult to injury he was suitably chastised for failing to ‘show some respect for the NHS.’
Javid has shown his true colours. There will be no Brownie points earned for those who continually submit to the state’s demands. Is there any doubt that the dismissive reply received by Atherton mirrors our government’s derisive attitude to the devastating impact of lockdown?
Shutting down our country.
So what?
Massive socio-economic damage caused by lockdown.
So what?
Increase in suicides, loneliness and anxiety.
So what?
Backlog of 6million NHS elective procedures.
So what?
Some 27million fewer outpatients’ appointments.
So what?
Almost 20million fewer dental appointments leading to severe impact on oral health.
So what?
Disadvantaged students almost two years behind educationally.
So what?
Over a million reported adverse reactions to Covid vaccine.
So what?
Vaccinating healthy children and risking vaccine-induced myocarditis.
So what?
Jabs or no job policy costing thousands their livelihood.
So what?
Medical apartheid.
So what?
Two-tier society.
So what?
My body but not my choice.
So what?
The Conservative Party implodes, never to hold power again, with its ministers held criminally accountable for the carnage they have inflicted.
So what?

Editor writes…
The above list represents SO much immorality – it’s difficult to identify the single most obnoxious “so what” in the list above. Medical apartheid? I had to pay my first visit to my local GP surgery earlier this week, the first since the beginning of this Covidiocy, and to say I felt “unclean” is to say they have cool winters in Siberia. I was there to see the nurse for a minor procedure, and when I explained that I don’t wear a mask, she pulled up one of the plastic face shields saying, just short of panicking, that I wasn’t vaccinated (I interjected that I never would be) so I must wear this shield. Then, at the end, as I gathered my belongings ready to leave, I almost laughed out loud watching her just outside the room thoroughly wiping the chair in which I’d been sitting in the waiting room. Unbelievable. So, with that memory fresh in my mind, I’m tending to go with medical apartheid. What about you?

 

[bspahh]

Let’s start with the opening line:



Here’s the latest official data:

View attachment 105942

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034383/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-46.pdf

From the same document, table 6 shows the rates for cases, cases that need emergency care, death within 28 days and death within 60 days, split out for people with an without the vaccine.



Vaccination reduces the risks by 3-4 fold.
Page 14 notes:

Vaccination status Vaccination status of COVID-19 cases, deaths and hospitalisations by week of specimen date over the past 4 weeks up to week 45 (up to 14 November 2021) are shown in Tables 3 to 5. These data are published to help understand the implications of the pandemic to the NHS, for example understanding workloads in hospitals, and to help understand where to prioritise vaccination delivery. These raw data should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness. We have published a blog https://ukhsa.blog.gov.uk/2021/11/02/transparency-and-data-ukhsas-vaccines-report/ to accompany this section of the vaccine surveillance report.

The blog article starts "Vaccines work."

 

[bramling]

David Atherton doesn't seem to be much of a journalist if he didn't know that he could have been given either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine as a booster, I had my booster on Friday and I knew that I could have been given either. As it happened, in my case, my booster was the Pfizer vaccine but the necessary research I did in advance of my vaccination took me five minutes at most. By the way, I don't believe a word the government says either, but that's a non-sequitur in his comment also.

EDIT Well, it seems as if some publication called "Catholic Truth" has picked up on this: (https://catholictruthscotland.com/2...disregard-for-damage-caused-by-covid-so-what/) and I should add that it doesn't represent my views in any way (other than a hope that the Conservative Party implodes and never holds power again).

The “so what” article quoted above does pretty well summarise where we are at the moment.

 

[VauxhallandI]

A worthwhile read for the anti-vaxxers

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant

www.theguardian.com

Guardian, I think we’ve learned that we can take the facts in there with a pinch of salt by now

 

[nedchester]

Guardian, I think we’ve learned that we can take the facts in there with a pinch of salt by now

Try this then:

Bump

17th November 2021 UK COVID Deaths – Daily 201 / 7-Day average 146 Total UK COVID Deaths within 28 days – 143,460 Total UK Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate – 166,730 (up to 5 Nov) James Cook Hospital – Total COVID deaths – 701 All COVID cases within South Tees Hospitals Trust – 73...

www.nomoresurgeons.com

 

[Busaholic]

Try this then:

Bump

17th November 2021 UK COVID Deaths – Daily 201 / 7-Day average 146 Total UK COVID Deaths within 28 days – 143,460 Total UK Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate – 166,730 (up to 5 Nov) James Cook Hospital – Total COVID deaths – 701 All COVID cases within South Tees Hospitals Trust – 73...

www.nomoresurgeons.com

I could feel his/her sadness and frustration, both in describing the whole situation and the particulars about the older people choosing not to have been vaccinated for any coherent reason. It's a bit like lung cancer patients continuing to chain smoke, although at least they might cite an addiction to nicotine. Maybe you can develop an addiction to conspiracy theories?!

 

[MikeWM]

Using the raw data is very poor when up to 90% of some of the groups listed are vaccinated, per 100000 is far better. You also have to take into account (as mentioned in the article) severe existing health conditions.

In terms of 'does the vaccine prevent hospitalisation and death' then yes, the figures per 100000 in each group are far more useful, and I see they have been provided in a later post. They do indeed show that vaccination reduces the risk of hospitalisation by about 70-75%, and risk of death by about 75-80%. (Which is pretty good, but I'd note not remotely near the 95% we were told when they were rolled out earlier in the year).

However, in terms of 'is the NHS under pressure', the raw numbers are the ones that count, because a hospital bed is a hospital bed regardless of who is in it. Those raw numbers are showing about 9000 hospitalisations a month in adults. As I pointed out in another thread on Friday, even if you had vaccinated 100% of people, that would only be reduced to about 7500. 1500 hospitalisations a month - about 50 a day across the whole of the UK - really shouldn't be 'breaking' the NHS, and if it is, I'd say that's rather more a problem with the NHS than with people choosing not to be vaccinated.

 

[DustyBin]

Using the raw data is very poor when up to 90% of some of the groups listed are vaccinated, per 100000 is far better. You also have to take into account (as mentioned in the article) severe existing health conditions.

Agreed, however the raw data is absolutely relevant in the context of the Guardian article.

From the same document, table 6 shows the rates for cases, cases that need emergency care, death within 28 days and death within 60 days, split out for people with an without the vaccine.

View attachment 105955

Vaccination reduces the risks by 3-4 fold.
Page 14 notes:



The blog article starts "Vaccines work."

Accepted, again however the article in the Guardian (at which my response was aimed) attempts to mislead. This is not a pandemic of the unvaccinated by any stretch of the imagination; it’s a pandemic of the elderly, sick and unhealthy, the same as it’s always been but less so now that we have the vaccines.

 

[Freightmaster]

Accepted, again however the article in the Guardian (at which my response was aimed) attempts to mislead. This is not a pandemic of the unvaccinated by any stretch of the imagination; it’s a pandemic of the elderly, sick and unhealthy obese, the same as it’s always been but less so now that we have the vaccines.

Fixed that for you!




MARK

 

[VauxhallandI]

Agreed, however the raw data is absolutely relevant in the context of the Guardian article.



Accepted, again however the article in the Guardian (at which my response was aimed) attempts to mislead. This is not a pandemic of the unvaccinated by any stretch of the imagination; it’s a pandemic of the elderly, sick and unhealthy, the same as it’s always been but less so now that we have the vaccines.

Thank you - exactly correct.

Take the Guardian with a pinch of salt.

 

[Bungle73]

Why are the same places that dished out the first two doses not doing the booster? I've just had "the letter", and when I went to check out where I need to go, the closest places are miles away in Medway, and I live in Sittingbourne. Last time I only needed to go to my local town centre, which is only a ~10 minute cycle ride away. I only went last time because I was under the impression that I would only need two, and that it was the way to end restrictions, but that has not turned out not to be the case. Also, I hate needles and could get it out of the way quickly, but now I've got to spent a significant portion of a day on it. I'm not sure I'm going to bother, I don't see why I need it anyway.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Why are the same places that dished out the first two doses not doing the booster? I've just had "the letter", and when I went to check out where I need to go, the closest places are miles away in Medway, and I live in Sittingbourne. Last time I only needed to go to my local town centre, which is only a ~10 minute cycle ride away. I only went last time because I was under the impression that I would only need two, and that it was the way to end restrictions, but that has not turned out not to be the case. Also, I hate needles and could get it out of the way quickly, but now I've got to spent a significant portion of a day on it. I'm not sure I'm going to bother, I don't see why I need it anyway.

My only centres were not in my town either. There was one pharmacy about 4 miles away but it’s first appointment was December 18th

 

[adc82140]

I was offered 15 miles away in 3 weeks time. After refreshing the booking system page 3 times, I was suddenly offered a local pharmacy today. The booking system, like all other NHS IT infrastructure, is terrible. It's worth logging out and in several times.

 

[jfollows]

I was offered 15 miles away in 3 weeks time. After refreshing the booking system page 3 times, I was suddenly offered a local pharmacy today. The booking system, like all other NHS IT infrastructure, is terrible. It's worth logging out and in several times.

Yes, interesting. Similar for me.
Unlike the first and second vaccination, which were conducted at my local GP and for which I received text message invitations and a simple booking site, I received nothing for my booster vaccination.
The mess of changes about who could book and when didn't help.
At just under 6 months after my second vaccination, but spurred on by a poster here, I went to look for an appointment, and found one in a small chemist in Cheadle Hulme but nothing in Wilmslow, which surprised me. The appointment was for a couple of weeks in the future also.
I took the appointment and it worked fine.
However I have a 'flu vaccination booked in a much larger chemist in the middle of Wilmslow this week and i intend to ask them whether or not they also dispense the Covid vaccine, because they never showed up on the booking system when I used it more than once. It seems surprising to me that no location in Wilmslow for the vaccination exists.
My conclusion is that it's a bit of a mess, made worse by constant changes of direction by the government shopping trolley, but it's just about fit for purpose in the sense that I got my booster vaccination just a bit more than six months after my second original vaccination. If the move is now to have these vaccinations performed by pharmacists in chemists that seems fine to me, the original vaccination was a major undertaking and my GP handled it well but it could now become more "business as usual" and they can catch up on other tasks.
I expect a continuing need for Covid vaccination, but combining the process with the 'flu vaccination appears sensible to me also, at the moment the processes seem totally separate. I can manage the bureaucracy if this continues to be the case as long as there's an on-line booking system I can tap into, but this won't be as easy for a significant subset of the population as it is for me.

EDIT PS It took me about an hour to get to the chemist in Cheadle Hulme and £2.80 for the return train ticket, I have the time and the walking exercise was good for me. But I live within 10 minutes' walk of a number of chemists in Wilmslow.

 

[35B]

I booked online, and am at the same vaccination centre as for my previous jabs.

 

[nedchester]

Covid patients in ICU now almost all unvaccinated, says Oxford scientist | Coronavirus | The Guardian

But hey it's the Guardian and some on here (and anti-vax idiots) will dismiss it purely because of that.........

 

[Mag_seven]

I had my booster jab last week and this has been recorded on the NHS App. This morning I received a text from "NHSvaccine" inviting me to book a booster.

 

[Yew]

Covid patients in ICU now almost all unvaccinated, says Oxford scientist | Coronavirus | The Guardian

But hey it's the Guardian and some on here (and anti-vax idiots) will dismiss it purely because of that.........

I prefer to trust data, rather than a single anecdote.

 

[DustyBin]

Covid patients in ICU now almost all unvaccinated, says Oxford scientist | Coronavirus | The Guardian

But hey it's the Guardian and some on here (and anti-vax idiots) will dismiss it purely because of that.........

To be honest the fact that it's the Guardian (awful rag though it is!) isn't the issue. We discussed this the other day; the claims made aren't supported by the data. A different doctor/scientist/other "expert" repeating the same thing doesn't make it true.