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TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

Bletchleyite

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Twice this week there have been Class 68s uncoupled from Mk5a sets in Scarborough station.
Coupling/uncoupling has been discussed previously and brings its own set of problems.

Why would you design locomotive-hauled coaching stock that was a problem to couple/uncouple from a set of coaches?

Mind you, why would you design non-independent hauled coaches in the first place? The whole thing is an utter bodge.
 
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Freightmaster

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Perhaps if a suitable power supply were to be installed at any of the suggested locations, the diesel locos wouldn't need to run all night.
This is the bit I don't understand - why is having a 'shore' supply for the Mk5s seemingly not possible?




MARK
 

xotGD

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A battery shunter at Scarborough should sort the noise problem.
 

D6975

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I wonder what the price comparison is like? Running a diesel all night v providing a shore supply.
 

sjpowermac

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Why would you design locomotive-hauled coaching stock that was a problem to couple/uncouple from a set of coaches?

Mind you, why would you design non-independent hauled coaches in the first place? The whole thing is an utter bodge.
Please read the post that I quoted. The loco/stock coupling is a standard shackle and hook.
I wonder what the price comparison is like? Running a diesel all night v providing a shore supply.
The locos didn’t run all night.

As I understand it, the locos need to run to power emptying of the ‘Controlled Emission Toilets’ but once that was done they were shut down.

Lights and power for the trains to be cleaned were powered from the batteries on the stock.

Perhaps if a suitable power supply were to be installed at any of the suggested locations, the diesel locos wouldn't need to run all night.
I’m not arguing against the idea of a shore supply and I’m not an engineer, so claim no knowledge as to why a suitable power supply can’t /hasn’t been designed for the Nova 3 sets.

My understanding is that the locos were not running all night at Scarborough.
 
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xotGD

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So is this '68s to Saltburn' notion tied in with the potential switch of Scarborough services to Piccadilly and Hull services to Liverpool being discussed on another thread?
 

Fokx

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So is this '68s to Saltburn' notion tied in with the potential switch of Scarborough services to Piccadilly and Hull services to Liverpool being discussed on another thread?
68’s to Saltburn isn’t happening.

This would require: Liverpool conductors and drivers to learn new traction, Manchester Pic drivers to learn new routes, Manchester Pic conductors to learn new traction and York drivers and conductors to all learn new traction, Airport conductors to lose Scarborough route knowledge and learn Saltburn. None of this has been agreed with either Conductor or Driver councils, and I’d happily place a confident wager on it not happening as someone who would be directly affected by the above changes.

It will be 68’s on Liverpool to Cleethorpes and Liverpool to Scarborough at this stage until further notice. Anything else is merely a proposal or plan beyond Dec 2022. (If hull does happen this would then be Man Pic to Scarborough using 68’s and Hull to Liverpool as 2x class 185 units).

Hull to Liverpool is merely a proposal. Nothing is confirmed, planned or due to happen at this stage, although it would be quite a useful one for passenger flows including those who live at the ‘peak hour’ stations and allow for full-time 6 carriage units which currently doesn’t happen due to platform capacity.
 
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VauxhallNova

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So the 68s can't run to:
  1. Newcastle (need 125mph)
  2. Saltburn (traincrew issues as stated above, thanks Fokx)
  3. Scarborough (noise issues due to lack of power supply and 1 minute dwell times between Huddersfield and Stalybridge)
 

43 302

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So the 68s can't run to:
  1. Newcastle (need 125mph)
  2. Saltburn (traincrew issues as stated above, thanks Fokx)
  3. Scarborough (noise issues due to lack of power supply and 1 minute dwell times between Huddersfield and Stalybridge)
They can and will continue to run to Scarborough. There will be two diagrams from May Manchester to Cleethorpes increasing from Dec 22 and extending to Liverpool.
 

Watershed

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68’s to Saltburn isn’t happening.

This would require: Liverpool conductors and drivers to learn new traction, Manchester Pic drivers to learn new routes, Manchester Pic conductors to learn new traction and York drivers and conductors to all learn new traction, Airport conductors to lose Scarborough route knowledge and learn Saltburn. None of this has been agreed with either Conductor or Driver councils, and I’d happily place a confident wager on it not happening as someone who would be directly affected by the above changes.
I wouldn't be so sure. The changes you mention are only required if things are crewed as they are today - but there is no inherent reason why that needs to stay in aspic.

Between Leeds and Liverpool, 802s can only be crewed by Liverpool and York. It's somewhat restrictive but it works.

No matter where the 68s go, training will be needed.

Scarborough (noise issues due to lack of power supply and 1 minute dwell times between Huddersfield and Stalybridge)
They are running to Scarborough - for now. But they are unlikely to have a long term future there.
 

Fokx

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I wouldn't be so sure. The changes you mention are only required if things are crewed as they are today - but there is no inherent reason why that needs to stay in aspic.

Between Leeds and Liverpool, 802s can only be crewed by Liverpool and York. It's somewhat restrictive but it works.

No matter where the 68s go, training will be needed.

That is true but there’s a great amount of training still suspended due to Covid 19 that STILL needs doing.

The currently focus is currently on driver recruitment, conductor recruitment at York, and traction and route training for drivers before anything else can dramatically change.

Currently you’ve got training for:
- New drivers joining the company on core routes and traction
- Diversion routes for TPRU
- Traction for South Route and Scarb for four depots
- Cleethorpes and Sheffield learning Ox Rd (Shef to Liverpool)
- 802 training for Scottish route crews

Saltburn will be 185 to reduce the additional training requirements.
 

xotGD

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So did anyone turn out today for the all-day 68 bashing opportunities across the Pennines?

Alas my planned work trip to Manchester tomorrow has been cancelled by the WFH edict.
 

Fokx

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So did anyone turn out today for the all-day 68 bashing opportunities across the Pennines?

Alas my planned work trip to Manchester tomorrow has been cancelled by the WFH edict.
Most 68’ trips were cancelled due to a lack of drivers
 

CW2

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So did anyone turn out today for the all-day 68 bashing opportunities across the Pennines?
Yes, I had a carefully planned bash wish would enable some decent long runs, covering 3 of the 4 diagrams, and allowing for a good beer and fish+&chips break in Scarborough. The planned move was:

0745 Crewe- Man Picc 0823
WALK
0900 Man Vic - York 1016
1029 York - Stalybridge 1136
1210 Stalybridge - Scarborough 1408
1534 Scarborough - Liverpool 1834
1847 Liverpool - Crewe 1921

What actually happened was
220 010 + 220030 0745 Crewe - Man Picc 0823
68030 0900 Man Vic - York, alighted, then heard them announcing the service to Stalybridge was cancelled, so hurriedly got back on again and carried on through to Malton 1044
68024 1059 Malton - York 1125
Lunch break
68030 1228 York - Stalybridge 1336
68030 1410 Stalybridge - York 1517
The intention was to do another Malton leap, but at York we stood for a very long time then they announced there was no guard for the train. By the time they found a guard the train had blocked the platform at York for over 30 minutes (and it was the main line platform, not the Scarborough branch one) leading to all manner of consequential chaos and confusion.
68024 1627 York - Liverpool 1834
This ran comparatively well until approaching Liverpool, where there seemed to be some congestion, so I only just made my theoretical +13 into
390 020 1847 Liverpool - Crewe
There was a bit of a riot on this train too, with a young woman and child with buggy deciding to sit in the vestibule of the coach and lean against the door, thus preventing any late boarders (such as me) from making there way though the train. Suffice be it to say I was not deterred!
At York, at one point the first three items on the Departures indicator were:
TP 1520 to Scarborough DELAYED
TP 1528 to Manchester Victoria CANCELLED
TP 1550 to Liverpool Lime Street CANCELLED

At Stalybridge the turnback train sits in platform 3, so the eastbound departure is a (signalled) wrong line move for any of you desperate track bashers out there.
In the morning the 0900 Victoria - Scarborough passes through Stalybridge non-stop, overtaking the 0858 Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield, which also uses platform 3 then departs eastbound after the passage of the Scarborough.
So in summary I still managed to get in a fairly long 68 bash, but with only 2 of the 3 locos covered. The 4th diagram was cancelled completely.
I think I'll let it settle down a bit before I try again in the New Year (maybe ...)
 
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CW2

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1981...
2021...

@CW2 still the main man...
I don't think I'd ever lay claim to that title!
It's just that I've always been good at keeping records of my moves, and they are all in an Access database that I can interrogate. Over the years I've had plenty of practice in writing reports too. so those skills come together in the "Back in the Day" thread.
 
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DanNCL

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68’s to Saltburn isn’t happening.

This would require: Liverpool conductors and drivers to learn new traction, Manchester Pic drivers to learn new routes, Manchester Pic conductors to learn new traction and York drivers and conductors to all learn new traction, Airport conductors to lose Scarborough route knowledge and learn Saltburn. None of this has been agreed with either Conductor or Driver councils, and I’d happily place a confident wager on it not happening as someone who would be directly affected by the above changes.

It will be 68’s on Liverpool to Cleethorpes and Liverpool to Scarborough at this stage until further notice. Anything else is merely a proposal or plan beyond Dec 2022. (If hull does happen this would then be Man Pic to Scarborough using 68’s and Hull to Liverpool as 2x class 185 units).

Hull to Liverpool is merely a proposal. Nothing is confirmed, planned or due to happen at this stage, although it would be quite a useful one for passenger flows including those who live at the ‘peak hour’ stations and allow for full-time 6 carriage units which currently doesn’t happen due to platform capacity.
Liverpool crews wouldn’t have any involvement with the Saltburn services as they run to the Airport. Airport crews already sign them, Piccadilly crews would need to learn the sets regardless for Cleethorpes, and the remaining York crews would likely end up learning them both for the overnights and the few Scarborough services, so Saltburn doesn’t actually force any new crews to learn them that wouldn’t otherwise have to learn them.

So the 68s can't run to:
  1. Newcastle (need 125mph)
  2. Saltburn (traincrew issues as stated above, thanks Fokx)
  3. Scarborough (noise issues due to lack of power supply and 1 minute dwell times between Huddersfield and Stalybridge)
Newcastle is the route with the most restrictions on 68s. There’s the 125mph requirement as you mention (although 185s can substitute as required without holding up anything else, so maybe not as big an issue as it seems), crew knowledge as no Newcastle crews sign 68s and Mark 5s, and the SDO system on the Mark 5s isn’t configured for Chester-le-Street. 68s would also mean a lack of flexibility as they’re too heavy for the High Level Bridge (only permitted locos are 43s, 90s and 91s) so wouldn’t be able to access Newcastle P1, which is booked for some of the Newcastle - Liverpool services.
 

NorthWestRover

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I don't think I'd ever lay claim to that title!
It's just that I've always been good at keeping records of my moves, and they are all in an Access database that I can interrogate. Over the years I've had plenty of practice in writing reports too. so those skills come together in this thread.

Meanwhile, a rather less productive day (unless you are a fan of ETH 47s):

Saturday 14/12/85
Having deposited my wife with her parents, I returned to Glasgow:
47527 1451 Abergavenny – Crewe
87024 1736 Crewe – Glasgow Central

Tuesday 14/12/99
Some sort of event at the National Exhibition Centre?
47851 0733 Reading – Birmingham International
Late afternoon I got a lift back as far as Banbury, and guess which loco arrived?
47851 (again) 1703 Banbury – Reading.
Wrong thread
 

Watershed

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Liverpool crews wouldn’t have any involvement with the Saltburn services as they run to the Airport.
Yes they do, they crew those services west of York on quite a few occasions. In fact it's the only way they can remain current on the Chord or the Airport line.
 

Fokx

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Liverpool crews wouldn’t have any involvement with the Saltburn services as they run to the Airport. Airport crews already sign them, Piccadilly crews would need to learn the sets regardless for Cleethorpes, and the remaining York crews would likely end up learning them both for the overnights and the few Scarborough services, so Saltburn doesn’t actually force any new crews to learn them that wouldn’t otherwise have to learn them.

Liverpool would need to sign them as it’s their only booked work to/from the Airport across the chord as mentioned by another member

Piccadilly drivers who are already 68 trained don’t need to sign them, but the larger link which only signs 185’s does. Piccadilly conductors do not and will not sign 68’s either but will still have diagramed work on the South .

The Airport and York do not have the amount of traincrew to run the entire service (without losing work and competence on other routes/traction).

The point I am (or was in the previous post) is that there is an incredible amount of training that already is required to take place, and is pretty much booked to take place right the way through 2022. It’s one of the reasons that the south route will only see two 68’s a day. It’s the sheer amount of training backlog that has to take place on existing crews and new crews, and the longer the pandemic plows on, the longer delays will take place in this.

Saltburn will remain 185 operation for some time, potentially even until the end of the NRC
 

xotGD

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So in summary I still managed to get in a fairly long 68 bash, but with only 2 of the 3 locos covered. The 4th diagram was cancelled completely.
I think I'll let it settle down a bit before I try again in the New Year (maybe ...)
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Not the best of starts to the new timetable.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Liverpool would need to sign them as it’s their only booked work to/from the Airport across the chord as mentioned by another member

Piccadilly drivers who are already 68 trained don’t need to sign them, but the larger link which only signs 185’s does. Piccadilly conductors do not and will not sign 68’s either but will still have diagramed work on the South .

The Airport and York do not have the amount of traincrew to run the entire service (without losing work and competence on other routes/traction).

The point I am (or was in the previous post) is that there is an incredible amount of training that already is required to take place, and is pretty much booked to take place right the way through 2022. It’s one of the reasons that the south route will only see two 68’s a day. It’s the sheer amount of training backlog that has to take place on existing crews and new crews, and the longer the pandemic plows on, the longer delays will take place in this.

Saltburn will remain 185 operation for some time, potentially even until the end of the NRC

Of course the current training plans are based on the Hull service still running to Piccadilly and Scarborough to Liverpool.

If the two were to change over, which from a perspective of passenger flows and journey opportunities I think would be a very sensible idea, then it is inevitable that the plans for which depots sign what and do which routes may need to change.

Thinking logically it wouldn't be a very daft idea to move the 68s on to the Hull route in due course. For a start there are only 2 depots that sign Leeds to Hull - Hull (Drivers and Guards) and Manchester (Piccadilly Drivers and Guards and Airport Guards). Hull is only a small depot so wouldn't be a massive training requirement. Secondly the 68s and Mk5s I suspect would not be well suited to regular stops at busy times at the small stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield which require good stopping, short dwell times, and quick setting off again to keep to time.

As Airport Guards already sign 68s and are going to learn to Sheffield, and Piccadilly Guards already work to Sheffield and Hull, then it would therefore make perfect sense for Liverpool Drivers and Guards to learn 68s for the South Route services which will start and finish there, and Piccadilly and Hull crews to also sign them. That way you would have a nice little pool of relatively small depots who all sign the traction and routes and can pretty much interwork and cross cover, providing greater flexibility:

Piccadilly (Guards and selected Drivers) work Sheffield, Liverpool, Hull and also the Scarborough and Huddersfield stoppers signing 68s and 185s which will be the traction on those services.

Airport Guards ditto.

Liverpool work Sheffield, and Hull route services as far as Leeds, also Newcastle services to York, signing 68s, 802s and 185s for those services.

Hull continue the same route as now but learn 68s.

Cleethorpes and Sheffield continue the same route as now but learn 68s and Sheffield learns Liverpool.

You could remove 68s from York completely if you wished with York focusing on 185s and 802s which would the traction on all the routes and services in and out of York.

This keeps 68s and Mk5s on the faster more limited stop services and 185s on the stopping trains, to which they are both better suited. The additional crew training would be relatively minimal, but overall would provide good flexibility and efficiency.
 

Fokx

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Of course the current training plans are based on the Hull service still running to Piccadilly and Scarborough to Liverpool.

If the two were to change over, which from a perspective of passenger flows and journey opportunities I think would be a very sensible idea

I completely agree with you, as one of the few traincrew that signs the Hull route I would not be suprised if most of what you said above were to happen.

The one thing that almost certainly won’t happen if the routes swap beyond Micklefield Jn is 68’s on the peak hour stopper calls. Meaning it will be 2x 185’s on Scarbs, and either 68’s on Hull or Saltburn (But that’s speculation)
 

Solent&Wessex

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I completely agree with you, as one of the few traincrew that signs the Hull route I would not be suprised if most of what you said above were to happen.

The one thing that almost certainly won’t happen if the routes swap beyond Micklefield Jn is 68’s on the peak hour stopper calls. Meaning it will be 2x 185’s on Scarbs, and either 68’s on Hull or Saltburn (But that’s speculation)

Don't forget it's not just peak time stoppers.

There are no separate stoppers after around 1900, and none at all on Sundays. Unless they are reintroduced the Scarborough services will pick up all them too.
 

37201xoIM

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I may be misremembering or fantasising, but was there not at some stage / is there not some tunnel or similar structure north of Sheffield for which 68s were out of gauge? (This may be utter nonsense as I have no idea from where I recall it!)
 

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