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Delay Repay claims rejected

AlterEgo

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Not that it makes any practical difference, but was Hull Trains’ journey on a through ticket or a combination? Would be interesting to know. Good luck with the escalation.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Hull Cons (Trains) are clearly joining in with the cost saving exercises.
missed connection causing me to be stranded and delayed hike by 120+ minutes. (Wasn’t actually stranded as I know the numbers of local taxi firms and can afford to pay for them but others will not be in that position).

To be fair in that case you are not actually technically eligible to claim.
 

robbeech

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To be fair in that case you are not actually technically eligible to claim.
I’d love to see your reasoning for this. Are you suggesting that in order to be able to claim I’d need to have sat on a cold platform until the first train on the morning? If they reject the claim on those specific grounds they’ll be getting a further shock when I claim the taxi fare aswell and make their behaviour very common knowledge.
Not that it makes any practical difference, but was Hull Trains’ journey on a through ticket or a combination? Would be interesting to know. Good luck with the escalation.
No splitting. Regular through ticket. It’s a journey I do frequently and it’s a farcical delay I have to endure maybe once a month (but haven’t recently as haven’t been doing so much work down here). Never had issues before they’ve paid it (sometimes it’s an hour if the taxi can get there quickly, sometimes it crosses the 2 hour threshold if not)

Their specific message was ‘we don’t pay out for missed connections’ however after further contact they seem to suggest there isn’t sufficient evidence for my claim. So perhaps they’re just trying everything they can to get out of it as they’re going against all the rules here.
OT : they threw the towel in a few days prior to the journey in question when a train in front of them broke down. Back to old times with buses and Thameslink and 3 hour delays for all passengers and I know of 2 people that have had claims rejected for a 3 hour delays. It seems they want to play dirty so i feel it’s only fair the country knows about it.
 

trenopendo

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I think the only meaningful resource we have at our disposition is to start civil proceedings (MCOL) against abusive TOCs.

Whereas we, the customers, are in the 'losing side' of the equation if we pursue -to the bitter end- a DR claim denied in bad faith by a TOC, the tides turn the moment an N1 Form lands in the HQs of these abusive companies.

Yes, it'll also cost more time to you (the customer). However, if you're completely convinced of the validity of your claim and you win, they'll be forced to pay court costs, a legal representative, some of the costs you incurred when preparing the claim, etc.

Moreover, civil claims undergo a mediation stage before a magistrate gets involved. There, you'll have the option to talk to a human with some power and knowledge of the railway system. At that stage, you can request DR + court costs in order not to bring matters before a magistrate.

Just food for thought.
 

robbeech

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The issue is as it always is these operators know full well they’re in the wrong, they know they’re acting ‘in bad faith’ as you put it so they won’t allow it to get to court as they don’t want to lose and set a precedent. They’ll pay out on the threat of court, or at the very least when they see proceedings have started so you’ll never get your costs back but you should get the compensation you are entitled to.

The vile hypocritical nature we are seeing from (if we search this forum enough) EVERY operator is perfectly clear. Pay when challenged is something the railway hates passengers doing, but it’s something it does thousands of times a week itself.
 

Hadders

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There seems to be an issue with Transport for Wales and West Midlands Trains delay repay systems.

Last week I submitted a claim to TfW. 24 hours later I get a message saying my claim is incomplete and requesting I supply more detail. I had already given this data when the claim was originally submitted (e.g. details of the ticket type and an image of the ticket)

Yesterday I submitted a claim to WMT. They seem to use the same system as TfW and today I got a message saying my claim was incomplete and requested more details. The missing details were the same ones TfW asked for on their claim.

It seems to be that there is something broken with the TfW and WMT delay repay sites. Perhaps someone might see this and arrange for it to be fixed....
 

island

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I think the only meaningful resource we have at our disposition is to start civil proceedings (MCOL) against abusive TOCs.
Not everyone wants to throw good money after bad; MCOL costs at least £35 to file a claim and £25 hearing fee if it's defended.
Whereas we, the customers, are in the 'losing side' of the equation if we pursue -to the bitter end- a DR claim denied in bad faith by a TOC, the tides turn the moment an N1 Form lands in the HQs of these abusive companies.

Yes, it'll also cost more time to you (the customer). However, if you're completely convinced of the validity of your claim and you win, they'll be forced to pay court costs, a legal representative, some of the costs you incurred when preparing the claim, etc.
Small claims track does not allow claimants to recover legal fees or the cost of one's time preparing a case.
Moreover, civil claims undergo a mediation stage before a magistrate gets involved.
Magistrates do not get involved in civil claims; these are heard by district judges.
There, you'll have the option to talk to a human with some power and knowledge of the railway system.
There is no guarantee a mediator will have knowledge of the railway system.
At that stage, you can request DR + court costs in order not to bring matters before a magistrate.

Just food for thought.
The time and stress of a court case is not going to be what everyone wants to deal with.

Just food for thought.
 

All Line Rover

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There seems to be an issue with Transport for Wales and West Midlands Trains delay repay systems.

Last week I submitted a claim to TfW. 24 hours later I get a message saying my claim is incomplete and requesting I supply more detail. I had already given this data when the claim was originally submitted (e.g. details of the ticket type and an image of the ticket)

Yesterday I submitted a claim to WMT. They seem to use the same system as TfW and today I got a message saying my claim was incomplete and requested more details. The missing details were the same ones TfW asked for on their claim.

It seems to be that there is something broken with the TfW and WMT delay repay sites. Perhaps someone might see this and arrange for it to be fixed....
It has been "broken" for two years! This is no accident.
 

robbeech

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It has been "broken" for two years! This is no accident.
Indeed, things ‘broken’ in the railway’s favour are rarely fixed, and never until forced. With there no longer being any regulation this could extend to never. Things that are ‘broken’ in the passenger’s favour become second only to safety critical measures in terms of priority.
Not everyone wants to throw good money after bad; MCOL costs at least £35 to file a claim and £25 hearing fee if it's defended.

Small claims track does not allow claimants to recover legal fees or the cost of one's time preparing a case.

Magistrates do not get involved in civil claims; these are heard by district judges.

There is no guarantee a mediator will have knowledge of the railway system.

The time and stress of a court case is not going to be what everyone wants to deal with.

Just food for thought.
Whilst I fully appreciate this comment is very realistic it does show how easy it is for the railway to get away with doing whatever they please.
 

trenopendo

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Not everyone wants to throw good money after bad; MCOL costs at least £35 to file a claim and £25 hearing fee if it's defended.

This, I agree. That's why TOCs screw everyone: who is going to pursue, to the bitter end, a <80 GBP DR claim that was denied in bad faith?
Small claims track does not allow claimants to recover legal fees or the cost of one's time preparing a case.
The court can award discretionary charges, which might cover (or not) these fees. They can also order additional fees if one can show the TOC acted in bad faith (hint: they always do).

There is no guarantee a mediator will have knowledge of the railway system.

There is a court appointed mediator, who mediates between the plaintiff and the defendant (legally appointed representative). Of course the mediator won't be an expert, but the defendant will.

Magistrates do not get involved in civil claims; these are heard by district judges.

I used the word 'magistrate' in the general sense. I'm aware of this technicality.

The time and stress of a court case is not going to be what everyone wants to deal with.

Again, I agree. Which brings me back to my initial point: that's why TOCs screw everyone: who is going to pursue, to the bitter end, a <80 GBP DR claim that was denied in bad faith?

---

That said, pursuing a civil claim is the only way to hit TOCs where it hurts them (their pocket). The cost of defending a claim is high for a plaintiff, but even more so for a TOC.

Mindlessly rejecting DR claims (and appeals) and playing along with the Rail Ombudsman (a bad joke) costs little to nothing to TOCs. Defending a civil claim involves much higher costs for TOCs than for LIPs.
 

headshot119

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There seems to be an issue with Transport for Wales and West Midlands Trains delay repay systems.

Last week I submitted a claim to TfW. 24 hours later I get a message saying my claim is incomplete and requesting I supply more detail. I had already given this data when the claim was originally submitted (e.g. details of the ticket type and an image of the ticket)

Yesterday I submitted a claim to WMT. They seem to use the same system as TfW and today I got a message saying my claim was incomplete and requested more details. The missing details were the same ones TfW asked for on their claim.

It seems to be that there is something broken with the TfW and WMT delay repay sites. Perhaps someone might see this and arrange for it to be fixed....

I had a similar issue with WMT this week, wanted extra information on the ticket that I had already supplied, plus I'd already uploaded a picture of the ticket that had all the information on if they weren't sure.
 

Kite159

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SWR claim for a ~ 32 minute delay back home a couple weeks ago (this train https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/L52693/2021-11-27)

Put claim in for 30-59 minutes and it's been reduced to a 15-29 minute payout. Needless to say I've appealed quoting the about Open Train Times link (couldn't find the RTT link) and saying it was around 32 minutes by the time the train arrived, certainly by the train the departed it was nearer 34 minutes. I wonder if they will increase the payout or claim the 159s can travel at 120mph as it departed Andover at 23:02 and arrived at Grateley (6 miles away) for 23:05:rolleyes:
 

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robbeech

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I suspect as with MOST operators they’ll pay out of you kick up a fuss but it’s awfully convenient that they have their own secret set of running data isn’t it.
 

W-on-Sea

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I have nothing but praise for how GWR (the company that I have, by far, had cause to submit the most Repay Delay claims with) has dealt with my claims. Usually paid promptly, without quibbling, covering split tickets where necessary, and paying out the full amount once when a rail replacement bus ended up getting completely lost (and going miles off-route) in the Cotswolds meaning it arrived at my destination a full two hours late. I thought (given that arrival times of RRBs are presumably not monitored to anything like the degree that those of trains are) the last one might take some fighting, but, no, no problem at all.
 

robbeech

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I have nothing but praise for how GWR (the company that I have, by far, had cause to submit the most Repay Delay claims with) has dealt with my claims. Usually paid promptly, without quibbling, covering split tickets where necessary, and paying out the full amount once when a rail replacement bus ended up getting completely lost (and going miles off-route) in the Cotswolds meaning it arrived at my destination a full two hours late. I thought (given that arrival times of RRBs are presumably not monitored to anything like the degree that those of trains are) the last one might take some fighting, but, no, no problem at all.
Good to hear. As for RRB timings. Something that severe would have been relayed to control so they’ll have been aware. The RRB timing recording tends to only be a problem on short delays or where you may miss a connection due to a short delay on an RRB, particularly if the bus delay itself didn’t cross a threshold.
 

Nova1

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Good to hear. As for RRB timings. Something that severe would have been relayed to control so they’ll have been aware. The RRB timing recording tends to only be a problem on short delays or where you may miss a connection due to a short delay on an RRB, particularly if the bus delay itself didn’t cross a threshold.
With West Midlands Railway once the rail replacement bus at 10pm was about 20 minutes late (compared to train timetable), I claimed for 15 minutes of delay and it took them a week, they then paid based on a train at 10am being delayed 15 minutes. I guess they assumed I had put the wrong time in...
 

Kite159

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I suspect as with MOST operators they’ll pay out of you kick up a fuss but it’s awfully convenient that they have their own secret set of running data isn’t it.
Alas they refused the appeal.

I wonder if anybody who has access to Trust can assist me with a screenshot of that service (21;20 Waterloo to Yeovil Junction on the 27th November to send an email to appeal their decision.
As they might take more notice of a screenshot from something more 'offical' than Open Time Trains.
 

robbeech

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Alas they refused the appeal.

I wonder if anybody who has access to Trust can assist me with a screenshot of that service (21;20 Waterloo to Yeovil Junction on the 27th November to send an email to appeal their decision.
As they might take more notice of a screenshot from something more 'offical' than Open Time Trains.

Can’t help with TRUST but I’m sure lots can.

For reference the RTT link is https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L52693/2021-11-27/detailed

Looks like it arrived 33L and essentially SWR are fobbing you off.

But please continue to use the railway.
 

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Kite159

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Can’t help with TRUST but I’m sure lots can.

For reference the RTT link is https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L52693/2021-11-27/detailed

Looks like it arrived 33L and essentially SWR are fobbing you off.

But please continue to use the railway.

Thanks for the link.

Edit - I've emailled the Customer Relations team with my appeal to the appeal

I suspect the automatic system is saying the train has arrived at the station when it passes a signal not even halfway between the two stations so all by magic a 7 minute journey takes 3 minutes pushing it to being 29 minutes late. It will be interesting to see what their reply will be.
 
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SteveM70

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I’ve just had an “interesting” time getting WMT to pay out on a 61 minute delay.

First attempt rejected due to “train operated by GWR”. Appealed pointing out the reason I was delayed was them causing me to miss my connection

Second attempt rejected due to “the train you referred to arrived on time”. Appealed again pointing out that it was delayed at the start of its journey and then skip-stopped to recover time, including missing the station I was getting on at

Success! Or partial success at least. Paid out for 30 - 59 minutes delay. Appealed by email with a video of my train arriving at my destination clearly showing the platform clock proving I was 61 minutes late

Finally achieved a full payout. All that for £7.65, it’s as if they’re trying to deter people from claiming <(
 

robbeech

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Certainly an interesting suggestion from West Midlands Railway...
Fairly standard level of knowledge for a member of staff it seems. Fobbing the passenger off for them to not get a response from Trainline for 3 weeks before they say no go to the operator for the operator to then say sorry you’re too late claims must be made within 28 days.

How long must these things crop up every single day before the anti passenger brigade here accept that it can’t just be incompetence.
it’s as if they’re trying to deter people from claiming <(
Surely not?
 

Haywain

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How long must these things crop up every single day before the anti passenger brigade here accept that it can’t just be incompetence.
If the response from WMR isn't incompetence on the part of the social media operative (or those who trained them), I think you'd have to agree that as a conspiracy it is being delivered incompetently.
 

robbeech

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If the response from WMR isn't incompetence on the part of the social media operative (or those who trained them), I think you'd have to agree that as a conspiracy it is being delivered incompetently.
When staff make it up because they don’t know we can assume this is incompetence. When staff are trained to make it up in favour of the railway we have questions to ask. When staff are trained incorrectly then this poses lots of questions. Why are people being taught the wrong things? And why is it that when they are taught the wrong things, that EVERY single time it just happens to be wrong in favour of the railway?
 

AlterEgo

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When staff make it up because they don’t know we can assume this is incompetence. When staff are trained to make it up in favour of the railway we have questions to ask. When staff are trained incorrectly then this poses lots of questions. Why are people being taught the wrong things? And why is it that when they are taught the wrong things, that EVERY single time it just happens to be wrong in favour of the railway?
Staff making things up to make something someone else’s problem is not novel to the railway. It’s just laziness and a wish for the problem simply to disappear rather than taking steps to actually find out what needs to be done.

It is not some massive conspiracy, it is just a fact of life when dealing with many customer service staff. The railway’s fragmented nature and public perception of separated responsibilities simply feeds the fire of sheer laziness and ignorance.

It is attractive to suggest that it’s all a conspiracy to screw Ordinary Joe but the reality is reassuringly less sinister. On the flip side, less reassuringly, it is also less easy to fix because fobbing off is part of human nature which requires significant effort to combat.
 

zero

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3 Apr 2011
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There seems to be an issue with Transport for Wales and West Midlands Trains delay repay systems.

Last week I submitted a claim to TfW. 24 hours later I get a message saying my claim is incomplete and requesting I supply more detail. I had already given this data when the claim was originally submitted (e.g. details of the ticket type and an image of the ticket)

Yesterday I submitted a claim to WMT. They seem to use the same system as TfW and today I got a message saying my claim was incomplete and requested more details. The missing details were the same ones TfW asked for on their claim.

It seems to be that there is something broken with the TfW and WMT delay repay sites. Perhaps someone might see this and arrange for it to be fixed....

I had a similar, if not the same, issue with EMR and Scotrail, but having experienced it once I was ready to resubmit the required information immediately.
 

trainophile

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We were delayed on 5th November due to two consecutive WMR trains between Worcester Foregate Street and Hereford being cancelled, meaning we eventually arrived in Hereford 90 minutes late. Claim was initially responded as per others above "more ticket information required", which was submitted, claim then rejected as "incorrect details submitted". Appeal subsequently rejected for same reason "incorrect details", after which locked out of claim form so could not pursue.

Sent a complaint and received an auto confirmation. Waited the 20 working days they apparently require, sent a follow-up "contact us" message about ten days ago, also acknowledged. Still waiting.

They can't seem to handle that the tickets were for Reading to Hereford. The Reading to WOF leg worked perfectly, arriving bang on time. It was solely WMR's leg that caused the delay.

Smacks of malpractice throughout this TOC.
 

Kite159

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We were delayed on 5th November due to two consecutive WMR trains between Worcester Foregate Street and Hereford being cancelled, meaning we eventually arrived in Hereford 90 minutes late. Claim was initially responded as per others above "more ticket information required", which was submitted, claim then rejected as "incorrect details submitted". Appeal subsequently rejected for same reason "incorrect details", after which locked out of claim form so could not pursue.

Sent a complaint and received an auto confirmation. Waited the 20 working days they apparently require, sent a follow-up "contact us" message about ten days ago, also acknowledged. Still waiting.

They can't seem to handle that the tickets were for Reading to Hereford. The Reading to WOF leg worked perfectly, arriving bang on time. It was solely WMR's leg that caused the delay.

Smacks of malpractice throughout this TOC.

Hoping that someone will simply forget about the claim and the complaint file is marked in such a way it doesn't affect any reporting figures to the DFT/ORR (or whoever it is TOCs have to report complaint figures to)
 

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