GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

[Deepgreen]

The Northern Line will not be serving London Bridge from the 15th either due to the Bank branch works, so it's going to be harder getting the increased number of passengers to their destinations as well.

Are you expecting Victoria to continue to be effectively shut until the 15th, rather than the 10th as announced today?

 

[deepeetw]

Are you expecting Victoria to continue to be effectively shut until the 15th, rather than the 10th as announced today?

If I were a betting man.....

 

[Surreytraveller]

Are you expecting Victoria to continue to be effectively shut until the 15th, rather than the 10th as announced today?

It'll be longer than that. Although I expect services will be brought back on a gradual basis

 

[hwl]

It'll be longer than that. Although I expect services will be brought back on a gradual basis

There will probably be a few expletives when they rediscover the post-it note they left themselves months ago "Bank branch closed from 15th Jan"

TfL's plans assume GTR can provide a proper service level for 4 months.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'll be suprised if, no matter what the facts, the press/social media don't speculate hugely about a link between the major engineering works and the line just happening to stay shut (as they will see it).

It'll be longer than that. Although I expect services will be brought back on a gradual basis

So not shut then; just with an amended service? Or are you saying that you know that Victoria (Southern) will be closed beyond the 10th, or indeed beyond the 15th, to clash with the Northern line closure?

 

[Southern Dvr]

I'll be suprised if, no matter what the facts, the press/social media don't speculate hugely about a link between the major engineering works and the line just happening to stay shut (as they will see it).

Yes that does look like the 2+2=5 scenario I see coming.
Still, at least petrol/diesel prices are at a all time low so there’s an alternative….oh!

anyone else wonder if the delayed fare rise was related to this?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I'll be suprised if, no matter what the facts, the press/social media don't speculate hugely about a link between the major engineering works and the line just happening to stay shut (as they will see it).


So not shut then; just with an amended service? Or are you saying that you know that Victoria (Southern) will be closed beyond the 10th, or indeed beyond the 15th, to clash with the Northern line closure?

Don't know. But it certainly won't be a full service from 10th. And its not designed to clash with the Northern Line closure - its just the way its happened.
Besides, I wouldn't have thought the Bank branch would make much difference - people won't be changing onto it if its Victoria they want to get to

 

[contrex]

This is ridiculous, people need to go back to work on Tuesday!

Maybe you should write to the virus and tell it that?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Don't know. But it certainly won't be a full service from 10th. And its not designed to clash with the Northern Line closure - its just the way its happened.
Besides, I wouldn't have thought the Bank branch would make much difference - people won't be changing onto it if its Victoria they want to get to

Indeed not a big deal Jubilee is best access for West End destined Victoria customers. Mind you its a one hell of a route march from London Bridge, especially if you switch from a Thameslink off platform 4&5, to get down to the Underground. I would say TfL be more worried if GN hack back the Moorgate service.

Resources are going to be constrained for weeks as will the requirement to WFH so best all operators move to a sustainable service pattern and just max out formations so at least those who need to get around can we some certainty.

 

[andystock22]

Great Northern have reduced the Moorgate service to only 2 TPH to WGC and the Hertford Loop. It's basically the full lockdown timetable.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Tell the public at the last minute as usual

The staff only found out yesterday so I’m told. (I’m out the loop at present)

 

[physics34]

They could squeeze in a vic to east croydon all stops 10 car every 10 mins im pretty sure of that.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

They could squeeze in a vic to east croydon all stops 10 car every 10 mins im pretty sure of that.

It needs someone to plan that and then roster that, with the current sickness levels and bank holiday weekend coming up that’s not deliverable. Resources in controls are tight at the moment due to sickness so leaving it up to them isn’t an option either.

Train timetables with traincrew rostered to them don’t just happen at the click of a button.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that this is a thread in the UK Railway section to discuss the fact that there will be no Southern or Gatwick Express from Victoria until 10th Jan.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else such as working from home then plaese create or use an existing thread.

I've moved some posts that were discussing WFH to this existing thread.

thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great Northern have reduced the Moorgate service to only 2 TPH to WGC and the Hertford Loop. It's basically the full lockdown timetable.

It is going to get worse, not better. Likely for there to be considerably more people isolating at one time than the first lockdown. I would not be surprised to see the whole network shutting down for a short period due to lack of staff.

 

[bramling]

It is going to get worse, not better. Likely for there to be considerably more people isolating at one time than the first lockdown. I would not be surprised to see the whole network shutting down for a short period due to lack of staff.

I don’t think it will be that bad. Many of those isolating before Christmas are now returning.

What will happen is if critical locations can’t be staffed then there will be wider areas of closure than we’re perhaps used to.

Controls and signalling will be the things to watch.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Ticket "restrictions" remaining in place

Well, they didn't last very long...

Below are suggestions of how to complete your journey. Tickets will be accepted on the following operators on the routes detailed:

• Great Northern
• London Buses*
• London Northwestern
• London Trams*
• London Underground*
• South Western Railway
• Southeastern
• Southern
• Thameslink

For the services of other operators, please check if your ticket will cover you as you might need to buy an extra ticket in some situations.

*E-tickets and tickets on the Key (except zone 1-6 Travelcards) cannot be used on London buses, Trams or Underground services

 

[physics34]

It needs someone to plan that and then roster that, with the current sickness levels and bank holiday weekend coming up that’s not deliverable. Resources in controls are tight at the moment due to sickness so leaving it up to them isn’t an option either.

Train timetables with traincrew rostered to them don’t just happen at the click of a button.

There will be a number of spare drivers at Victoria and stock available and a short term plan maybe possible to accomplish, with 4x 10 car trains or even more. There are times when pen and paper can do the job. Admittedly there maybe some space issues at east croydon but platform 2 or 5 can be used as an easy turn around platforms.

If iam underestimating the short staffing of planners/control/RMs then i retract the idea

 

[Horizon22]

I'll be suprised if, no matter what the facts, the press/social media don't speculate hugely about a link between the major engineering works and the line just happening to stay shut (as they will see it).


So not shut then; just with an amended service? Or are you saying that you know that Victoria (Southern) will be closed beyond the 10th, or indeed beyond the 15th, to clash with the Northern line closure?

Oh Twitter is already full of people saying this and that the engineering works has had to run due to Covid isolations in the engineering team.

That being said is not beyond the realms of reason to run a 12-car buster from say East Croydon to Victoria every 15 minutes. This would only require a few diagrams (stock and crew) to accomplish throughout the course of the day, although would require a fair bit of on the fly planning and STP diagrams. That being said, I know Control teams are also running on skeleton staff (including Resourcing & Roster teams) right now too who are just trying to resolve the daily service, let along planning.

Closing such a core main route really is an extreme option that few other TOCs are going for, even if emergency timetables are going to be implemented at pretty much every TOC the next few weeks.

I don’t think it will be that bad. Many of those isolating before Christmas are now returning.

What will happen is if critical locations can’t be staffed then there will be wider areas of closure than we’re perhaps used to.

Controls and signalling will be the things to watch.

Already some shortages in signallers out my way primarily affecting night shifts but panels being closed for an hour at a time, sometimes on core routes.

 

[Goldfish62]

Oh Twitter is already full of people saying this and that the engineering works has had to run due to Covid isolations in the engineering team.

This is exactly what I'm hearing from a reliable source.

 

[Horizon22]

This is exactly what I'm hearing from a reliable source.

Yes I have also heard this from another source. By the way I should have written “overrun” in my post.

 

[Barry K]

The question that I am yet to hear a satisfactory response to is this:

Why is it that every single time Southern have a staffing crisis, the Caterham/Tattenham Corner branches are the first to be hacked back? On the CAT branch, we automatically lose our semi-fast services, in favour of retaining the stoppers, despite the fact that the vast majority of the Zone 1-5 stations have a direct bus service to Central London, or duplication of services by either London Overground or the Victoria-London Bridge services?

The Zone 1-5 stations and the Brighton Mainline seem to be the priority for Southern, and stuff the branches. Even the EGR line seems to get an unfair share of hits, despite the fact that the Uckfield services could be adjusted to serve more stations.......

 

[Surreytraveller]

The question that I am yet to hear a satisfactory response to is this:

Why is it that every single time Southern have a staffing crisis, the Caterham/Tattenham Corner branches are the first to be hacked back? On the CAT branch, we automatically lose our semi-fast services, in favour of retaining the stoppers, despite the fact that the vast majority of the Zone 1-5 stations have a direct bus service to Central London, or duplication of services by either London Overground or the Victoria-London Bridge services?

The Zone 1-5 stations and the Brighton Mainline seem to be the priority for Southern, and stuff the branches. Even the EGR line seems to get an unfair share of hits, despite the fact that the Uckfield services could be adjusted to serve more stations.......

The Caterham and Tattenham trains require lots of drivers - two per train due to the splits at Purley. They are fast services which serve few stations. By pulling them, they provide lots of drivers to protect other services

 

[87015]

Yes I have also heard this from another source. By the way I should have written “overrun” in my post.

This isn’t correct, the timetable decision was made before the block was even taken.

 

[Horizon22]

This isn’t correct, the timetable decision was made before the block was even taken.

Fair enough if true - that would suggest though that the decision was taken 1-2 weeks ago though at which point I find it hard to believe it was known exactly how bad the shortage would be.

I maintain that this is the "easy" option for staff; selective cancellations could be more easily balanced across both terminals so that two major hubs don't receive no service for close to 2 weeks.

 

[MCR247]

The question that I am yet to hear a satisfactory response to is this:

Why is it that every single time Southern have a staffing crisis, the Caterham/Tattenham Corner branches are the first to be hacked back? On the CAT branch, we automatically lose our semi-fast services, in favour of retaining the stoppers, despite the fact that the vast majority of the Zone 1-5 stations have a direct bus service to Central London, or duplication of services by either London Overground or the Victoria-London Bridge services?

The Zone 1-5 stations and the Brighton Mainline seem to be the priority for Southern, and stuff the branches. Even the EGR line seems to get an unfair share of hits, despite the fact that the Uckfield services could be adjusted to serve more stations.......

The Caterham and Tattenham trains require lots of drivers - two per train due to the splits at Purley. They are fast services which serve few stations. By pulling them, they provide lots of drivers to protect other services

Also, let’s face it the fast services are mostly 10 coaches of fresh air, off peak anyway.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Also, let’s face it the fast services are mostly 10 coaches of fresh air, off peak anyway.

Indeed. Caterham does not need four trains per hour, either

Fair enough if true - that would suggest though that the decision was taken 1-2 weeks ago though at which point I find it hard to believe it was known exactly how bad the shortage would be.

I maintain that this is the "easy" option for staff; selective cancellations could be more easily balanced across both terminals so that two major hubs don't receive no service for close to 2 weeks.

Selective cancellations are not that simple. The crew workings are extremely complex. It would require weeks of work to rewrite the timetable.
I am not sure the decision was taken 1-2 weeks ago. Perhaps the options were being discussed, but the decision wasn't made

 

[foggy69]

Quite a lot of the coastal depot drivers now don't sign London Bridge, so the closure of Victoria will cause problems.
I can't imagine that this is entirely Southern's idea as the chances of no relief at somewhere like East Croydon can cause major problems.

 

[Horizon22]

Indeed. Caterham does not need four trains per hour, either


Selective cancellations are not that simple. The crew workings are extremely complex. It would require weeks of work to rewrite the timetable.
I am not sure the decision was taken 1-2 weeks ago. Perhaps the options were being discussed, but the decision wasn't made

I am aware of how crew workings are arranged and have been involved in emergency timetables in the past. Yes, there is some juggling required, but normally the aim is to remove certain diagrams outright to reduce the service. Yes, it is harder if you have a high variance between your stock and crew diagrams, and will require more intervention but it can be done.

If that isn't possible that as I suggested up-thread a self-contained "crowd-buster" 12-car from East Croydon to Victoria 2-4tph would be another option. Victoria is a huge depot and sourcing ~10 drivers (that aren't redirected to London Bridge) will be feasible, even with the shortages. There are always possibilities if the infrastructure is open, it just requires creative thinking and a detailed approach. I appreciate this is harder when planning and control teams are already over-stretched.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I appreciate this is harder when planning and control teams are already over-stretched

And that is why you have the timetable as outlined, lack of resource within these teams to reliably deliver anything else.