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Should a 'road tax' be introduced for cyclists?

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Meerkat

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The whole idea is to warn drivers by making it very clear there is a cycle path they need to cross. Furthermore, in the space in between main road and cycle path drivers can look left and right, so sight lines are good. This is a nice example of such a design: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.4859...4!1shVUpB4G8k0hvKoWyotV0tw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

(for the people who cannot open the link: Street View picture of a road with a design I explained before)
That's the sort they think are more dangerous than on road cycle lanes. The driver turns in but the cyclist can still be more than 90 degrees behind them, amongst the car pillars, the trees etc etc, but going fast enough that they catch up as the car slowly turns in. I think that is why the design guide suggests that cyclists should only get priority if the crossing is set back 5 metres with full give way lines and triangles. Remember that we are talking about what will happen in the real world, not what drivers should see and do.

https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/...and/2011/01/b02_road_crossings_side_roads.pdf

As a result of concerns over the safety of parallel cycle tracks crossing side roads, it is becoming common European practice to reintroduce cyclists to the main road in advance of a junction. Cyclists pass the junction on the carriageway and then rejoin the cycle track. Many cyclists feel safer riding on a dedicated cycle track than on a busy main carriageway, but in urban areas, cyclists are likely to be safer on-carriageway than on a cycle track which is interrupted by having to give way at frequent side road junctions. A TRL study into cycle tracks crossing minor roads concluded that “[the risk of crossing the minor road] must be weighed against the risks to cyclists using the major road. The safer option will depend on a variety of sitespecific factors. If satisfactory crossings of minor roads cannot be provided, the creation of a cycle track may not be a sensible option”. This is backed up by Danish research based on 8,500 accident reports that has shown that whilst the construction of cycle tracks has resulted in reduced levels of accidents between junctions there has been a significant increase in accidents at junctions (9-10%).
 
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D365

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But ALL road vehicles have to pay;
Road tax*
Fuel duty*
For an annual test

A bike pays zilch. Nadda. Nothing. Not a sausage. It doesn't even need an annual test.

*yes, duracells don't need to pay this, but considering they like for like weigh more than their ice counterparts, they should be taxed.
Ford Ecoboosts (before 2017 at least) didn’t have to pay VED. What’s your point? VED is not based on a vehicle’s weight.

Try telling us that you aren’t on some sort of wind-up.
 

Bletchleyite

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My views are genuine.

If so then they are unsavoury, and contrary to any sort of reason. Cycling is to be encouraged. That doesn't mean you have to cycle, but it does mean you have to become more accepting of cycling and cyclists, as it is an environmentally friendly mode of transport and an excellent form of low-impact exercise. Every additional cyclist on the road is better for everyone. They take up less road space than a car, they pollute less and they will be healthier for it, which means less load on the NHS.
 

biko

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Which is now what cycle infrastructure in the UK is supposed to be designed to, if anyone is interested they can look up LTN 01/20 which provides details of the new standards (I won't be offended if many of you don't).
Interesting read! The guidelines look good and could lead to a useful, attractive cycling infrastructure in the UK. Are these guidelines in any way binding or is it just a guide for the councils that are already trying to improve infrastructure?
That's the sort they think are more dangerous than on road cycle lanes. The driver turns in but the cyclist can still be more than 90 degrees behind them, amongst the car pillars, the trees etc etc, but going fast enough that they catch up as the car slowly turns in. I think that is why the design guide suggests that cyclists should only get priority if the crossing is set back 5 metres with full give way lines and triangles. Remember that we are talking about what will happen in the real world, not what drivers should see and do.
But most car drivers would look again in the space between road junction and crossing the cycle path. That's also what is taught in driving lessons in the Netherlands and what happens in practice. In that space, the sight lines are much better. I see nearly all drivers slow and look well before they cross at these kinds of points.

Of course it still is a conflict point, but at least the cyclist can see the intention of most drivers. In reality, cyclists would just brake if they see a driver wasn't able to see the cyclist. Riding on the main road is more dangerous as you would have heavy vehicles travelling with 30 mph from behind.

To get back to the main topic, I fully agree with every word of this, independent of how you achieve it:
If so then they are unsavoury, and contrary to any sort of reason. Cycling is to be encouraged. That doesn't mean you have to cycle, but it does mean you have to become more accepting of cycling and cyclists, as it is an environmentally friendly mode of transport and an excellent form of low-impact exercise. Every additional cyclist on the road is better for everyone. They take up less road space than a car, they pollute less and they will be healthier for it, which means less load on the NHS.
 

johncrossley

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in central London (Southwark borough). Crossing traffic has an extra give-way before crossing the cycle path.

Note also this is an A-road with a 20 mph limit.
 

Meerkat

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But most car drivers would look again in the space between road junction and crossing the cycle path. That's also what is taught in driving lessons in the Netherlands and what happens in practice. In that space, the sight lines are much better. I see nearly all drivers slow and look well before they cross at these kinds of points.

Of course it still is a conflict point, but at least the cyclist can see the intention of most drivers. In reality, cyclists would just brake if they see a driver wasn't able to see the cyclist. Riding on the main road is more dangerous as you would have heavy vehicles travelling with 30 mph from behind.
In the example you linked to there wasn't really a space between the junction and the cycle path (hence the recommended 5m with give way lines and triangles etc)
Maybe Netherlands cyclists are different, but here you would get cyclists hammering along that would be a problem for drivers to spot (and wouldn't slow down because they have priority), and you would get drivers who didnt want to stop (or didnt realise they were supposed to). A worrying number of drivers don't stop for the very obvious zebra crossings and a worrying number of British cyclists seem to think that exercising their legal rights is more important than trying to stay alive!
From the link about Dutch cycling provision (apologies if it was yours, I forget) it seemed that quite a bit of hard cycling provision was being removed in favour of on road lanes and slow mixed streets.
Dutch cyclists also have the advantage of being accepted cycling all over the place - here there are vociferous groups who will demand cyclists are kept away from pedestrians ( a lot of which I believe is the envious car drivers continuing their anti cyclist crusades)
 

biko

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in central London (Southwark borough). Crossing traffic has an extra give-way before crossing the cycle path.

Note also this is an A-road with a 20 mph limit.
Nice example of a good design in the UK. Minor remark from a Dutchman: ideally a cut-off would be added between the cycle path and the main road opposite Nicholson Street. That would save a strange manoeuvre when turning left from Nicholson Street and that means more cyclists on the cycle path instead of the main road.
In the example you linked to there wasn't really a space between the junction and the cycle path (hence the recommended 5m with give way lines and triangles etc)
The space over there is sufficient for cars to wait, I've seen it happen frequently at exact that spot.
Maybe Netherlands cyclists are different, but here you would get cyclists hammering along that would be a problem for drivers to spot (and wouldn't slow down because they have priority), and you would get drivers who didnt want to stop (or didnt realise they were supposed to).
Dutch cyclists don't 'hammer' along a path. Maybe our disagreement stems from the fact that many current cyclists in the UK are lycra-wearing people on fast cycles, not a commuter on their way to work. Average speed in the Netherlands of cyclists is about 18 km/h (11 mph, I think).
A worrying number of drivers don't stop for the very obvious zebra crossings and a worrying number of British cyclists seem to think that exercising their legal rights is more important than trying to stay alive!
That's everywhere in Europe! Everyone should be aware and paying attention of course. Using this line of reasoning it would be even more dangerous to cycle on the main road as vehicles might not have seen the cyclist in the mirror and then the cyclist has even less of an opportunity to see what the driver is doing!
From the link about Dutch cycling provision (apologies if it was yours, I forget) it seemed that quite a bit of hard cycling provision was being removed in favour of on road lanes and slow mixed streets.
Certainly not the case. The only trend towards shared spaces is on squares and in shopping streets with many pedestrians, many cyclists and some cars. Outside these areas, cycling paths are still the norm, especially along busy roads with a higher speed limit (30 mph or over). Another trend is to create 'cycle streets' which are normal streets but they seem narrower by changing the paving at the sides and are painted red. The idea is that cars slow because of the presence of the cyclists and they are discouraged from overtaking as the paving at the sides is unattractive for cycling so the cyclists are more to the middle of the road. Maybe you mean this type of street, although these are never replacing proper cycle paths or lanes.
Dutch cyclists also have the advantage of being accepted cycling all over the place - here there are vociferous groups who will demand cyclists are kept away from pedestrians ( a lot of which I believe is the envious car drivers continuing their anti cyclist crusades)
That's certainly true. As more people will cycle, more car drivers will also cycle and thus be aware. That's a main advantage over here. Every car driver will have cycled at least once in their live and will probably even cycle at least every week. I am also pro keeping cyclists away from pedestrians, as it isn't comfortable having someone cycling just behind you, but that's another argument for having proper infrastructure.

Back to the main topic: A tax on cycling will not help anyone, cyclists will get upset over the lack of proper infrastructure, and infrastructure that is present will be underutilised. That means more cars on the road than necessary and therefore nobody will be happy.
 

JohnMcL7

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Dutch cyclists don't 'hammer' along a path. Maybe our disagreement stems from the fact that many current cyclists in the UK are lycra-wearing people on fast cycles, not a commuter on their way to work. Average speed in the Netherlands of cyclists is about 18 km/h (11 mph, I think).
That is certainly the general perception of cycling in the UK and while there's probably less commuting and utility type cycling than there should be, there's plenty of non-lycra road cyclists where I am especially having spent a good bit of time assisting riders to get going with cycling. In addition to that fast riders that are 'hammering' along tend to use standard roads rather than any cycling infrastructure which can make sense for higher speeds.
 

The Ham

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Interesting read! The guidelines look good and could lead to a useful, attractive cycling infrastructure in the UK. Are these guidelines in any way binding or is it just a guide for the councils that are already trying to improve infrastructure?

Whilst not binding, in that a highway designers can just ignore it if they choose to, it would very hard to not design new roads to these standards as it would require a departure from standards which is quite difficult to get without a very good justification.

Even if such a departure was obtained the justification would have to be explained at each of the Road Safety Audit stages.
 

341o2

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In the example you linked to there wasn't really a space between the junction and the cycle path (hence the recommended 5m with give way lines and triangles etc)
Maybe Netherlands cyclists are different, but here you would get cyclists hammering along that would be a problem for drivers to spot (and wouldn't slow down because they have priority), and you would get drivers who didnt want to stop (or didnt realise they were supposed to). A worrying number of drivers don't stop for the very obvious zebra crossings and a worrying number of British cyclists seem to think that exercising their legal rights is more important than trying to stay alive!
From the link about Dutch cycling provision (apologies if it was yours, I forget) it seemed that quite a bit of hard cycling provision was being removed in favour of on road lanes and slow mixed streets.
Dutch cyclists also have the advantage of being accepted cycling all over the place - here there are vociferous groups who will demand cyclists are kept away from pedestrians ( a lot of which I believe is the envious car drivers continuing their anti cyclist crusades)
Part of the pleasure of walking is to be able to relax, but apparently us walkers must always be on the lookout for, and get out of the way of cyclists whether this is demanded or not. Always our fault when we don't. As for being voiciferous, how about when enforcement of no cycling occurs?
 

Bletchleyite

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Part of the pleasure of walking is to be able to relax, but apparently us walkers must always be on the lookout for, and get out of the way of cyclists whether this is demanded or not. Always our fault when we don't. As for being voiciferous, how about when enforcement of no cycling occurs?

On shared routes they are better shared if treated as traffic free country lanes - cycle on the left, walk on the right, neither should block the full width. This is the MK "Redway Code" and it largely works fine.

Narrow shared routes where this is not possible should not exist (minimum Redway spec is 2m and most are wider). Ideally fully segregate if there is room, as is usually done in the Netherlands and sometimes exists in the UK, e.g. there are a few places in West Lancs that have separate pavement and cycle path such as the A59 near Ormskirk and the A570 towards Southport, plus a very few mostly older MK Redways have a raised pavement.
 

Haywain

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Ideally fully segregate if there is room, as is usually done in the Netherlands and sometimes exists in the UK,
Around these parts full segregation does not lead to pedestrians respecting the segregation.
 

LOL The Irony

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py_megapixel

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Considering they're being encouraged to ride in the middle of the road now
Who is encouraging them to ride in the middle of the road?

I'm fine, thank you.
Well, anyone who doesn't treat other road users with a basic level of respect is certainly not "fine" to be in control of a motor vehicle (or even a bicycle). Not because they need to be punished or anything, just for the sake of everyone else's safety.
 

Domh245

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Who is encouraging them to ride in the middle of the road?

New update to the highway code

New Rule 72
Road positioning.
When riding on the roads, there are two basic road positions you should adopt, depending on the situation.
1. Ride in the centre of your lane, to make yourself as clearly visible as possible, in the following situations:
• on quiet roads or streets – if a faster vehicle comes up behind you, move to the left to enable them to overtake, if you can do so safely
• in slower-moving traffic - when the traffic around you starts to flow more freely, move over to the left if you can do so safely so that faster vehicles behind you can overtake
• at the approach to junctions or road narrowings where it would be unsafe for drivers to overtake you
2. When riding on busy roads, with vehicles moving faster than you, allow them to overtake where it is safe to do so whilst keeping at least 0.5 metres away, and further where it is safer, from the kerb edge. Remember that traffic on most dual carriageways moves quickly. Take extra care crossing slip roads

So whilst they are encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane in some circumstances, this is not quite going to have the detrimental effect on road space occupancy that is being claimed. Also noting that one person on a bike in the middle of a lane will still take up far less space than one person in a car...
 

Bletchleyite

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New update to the highway code

So whilst they are encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane in some circumstances, this is not quite going to have the detrimental effect on road space occupancy that is being claimed. Also noting that one person on a bike in the middle of a lane will still take up far less space than one person in a car...

Indeed. All it is doing is adding the positioning recommendations of Cyclecraft, the recognised "bible" of road cycling, to the Highway Code, to stop car drivers whining about cyclists using the road correctly.
 

py_megapixel

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I did know about that. But that is not encouraging cyclists to ride in the middle of the road - it is, as you say, encouraging them to take up the middle of their lane - and it's only doing that in circumstances when nobody should be overtaking them anyway. So on paper it should have no impact on road capacity, and in practice the impact will be nowhere near as bad as every cyclist getting in a car instead.
 

Ediswan

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Around these parts full segregation does not lead to pedestrians respecting the segregation.
Are the cycleways in your area signed 'No Pedestrians' ? I ask, because Stevenage has an exentensive network of parallel footways and 'cycleways'. But legally, the 'cycleways' are shared use, so available to pedestrians. Most of the time, there is plenty of room for everybody. The main exception is the start and end of the school day. Yes, hordes of pupils and parents walking to and from school.
 
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LOL The Irony

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Also noting that one person on a bike in the middle of a lane will still take up far less space than one person in a car...
The Smart ForTwo.
How many are going to move over to the left when a vehicle approaches? You'll all say right here that you will all move over and I have to give you the benefit of the doubt, but in the real world, how many people will move over and how many will be entitled and stay in the middle of the lane because the highway code said they could?
 

Failed Unit

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The Smart ForTwo.

How many are going to move over to the left when a vehicle approaches? You'll all say right here that you will all move over and I have to give you the benefit of the doubt, but in the real world, how many people will move over and how many will be entitled and stay in the middle of the lane because the highway code said they could?
If I knew it was you driving I would definitely stay put just to wind you up. ;)

From your posts, you sound like the kind of nasty-aggressive driver that has caused the rules to be changed in the first place. Your posts give the impression you would take great pleasure out of injuring a cyclist in a RTC as they don’t pay VED. But I guess I should just assume you are just jealous, rather than nasty as I don’t know you. But sadly such motorists that go out to deliberately injure cyclists do exist as they don’t believe people should ride on “their roads”, and should risk health problems, increase congestion by driving everywhere.

However decent for motorists,(which the vast majority are) if it is safe (ie no pot holes, glass etc) why wouldn’t I make it easier to pass? After all it is me, not the motorist in A&E when they pass with a high risk move. We are all trying to get somewhere after all.
 
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LOL The Irony

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If I knew it was you driving I would definitely stay put just to wind you up.
Nice bait.
After all it is me not the motorist in A&E when they pass with a high risk move.
Every overtake that requires going into opposing traffic, by definition, is high risk and such a move would be happening on high speed country lanes. So why cycle somewhere inherently dangerous (for all road users, I might add) and moan about vehicles making high risk moves?
 

Failed Unit

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Nice bait.

Every overtake that requires going into opposing traffic, by definition, is high risk and such a move would be happening on high speed country lanes. So why cycle somewhere inherently dangerous (for all road users, I might add) and moan about vehicles making high risk moves?
Because I can. It isn’t illegal and keeps me fit. Motorists can be patient and wait for a safe time to pass, like the vast majority of decent ones do. It is the minority of impatient one’s that cause the problems.

The last motorist that hit me got convicted for dangerous driving. Hopefully they are enjoying their higher insurance premiums. But such drivers will just hit and kill other car drivers, sadly, so not riding on roads isnt going to change their behaviour. They will just get annoyed with agricultural vehicles instead.

Try cycling. It may make you better at driving, or if not at least healthier
 
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The Ham

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Part of the pleasure of walking is to be able to relax, but apparently us walkers must always be on the lookout for, and get out of the way of cyclists whether this is demanded or not. Always our fault when we don't. As for being voiciferous, how about when enforcement of no cycling occurs?

The latest update of the highway code puts the responsibility of the safety of the pedestrian of other road users. As such cyclists and drivers should (although I accept that they won't always do as they should) be in control of their vehicle in such a way that means that they shouldn't cause the pedestrian harm.
 

LOL The Irony

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Hmmm.... jokes about suicide. Excellent taste [/sarcasm]

:rolleyes:
I assume you're referring to this
And then kill themselves.
Which is neither a joke, nor about suicide. If you crash into a tractor at 60 (the national speed limit on single carriage way roads) in the wrong spot, you'll wind up seriously injured or dead, which is what I was referring to.
 
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