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Are e-tickets the way forward?

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Xenophon PCDGS

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When buying your ticket online or on an app.

Yes, of course you could go to a TVM or ticket machine but that is not nearly as convenient as what used to be commonplace previously - buying your ticket online and then collecting it from the machine.

It is one thing having the option for e-tickets. That's great. But as long as the railway comes down with an iron fist on people who can't produce a ticket because their battery dies - it needs to provide a free and convenient method of having a printed ticket of some description.

The full service airlines get it. It's not rocket science.
What is an app? It is what bit Cleopatra?

Waiting for the new thread on this website that will justify ePassports.
 
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Starmill

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In theory. Maybe some TOCs transitioned better than others from standard ticket stock to all manner of things passing for a 'ticket' nowadays, but I know people who were 'ticket monsters' in the past who have largely given up now, the whole thing having become a right faff for far less reward. I'm not in the revenue game anymore admittedly, but I couldn't tell you whether something is or isn't a 'ticket' anymore, let alone whether it's valid for the journey being taken.
I think that the reality is that nobody can know for certain if a ticket is even real by just by using their eyes any more, as an eticket or pkpass file in apple wallet or Google Pay (or similar) can be generated by a fraudster, and a smartcard or contactless card or device could be blank or not touched in if being used PAYG.
 

Horizon22

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The DfT has a huge dilemma in that it would desperately love to cut staffing to the bare bones, but in doing so it would invite a huge degree of fare evasion, and not just through non-payment but also via the ever increasing number of easily abused e-tickets and so on. I imagine they're probably somewhat adrift regarding how best to address the situation.

What you mean is that the DfT is being short-sighted - they see the cost of railway staff and may want to consider cutting this, without realising all the indirect problems this would have on things like fare evasion as you mention, but also customer satisfaction and safety which will probably have negative financial outcomes, but they are harder to percieve.
 

Robertj21a

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Electronic tickets aren't good customer service. They're crap.

Nothing wrong with ToD or just buying at the ticket office.
As a mere customer, electronic tickets are one of the most helpful things to have happened on the railways in many years.
So much of the rest of the 'travel experience' is so old fashioned and, seemingly, unwilling to change.
 

swt_passenger

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What you mean is that the DfT is being short-sighted - they see the cost of railway staff and may want to consider cutting this, without realising all the indirect problems this would have on things like fare evasion as you mention, but also customer satisfaction and safety which will probably have negative financial outcomes, but they are harder to percieve.
They‘ve seen schemes such as Oyster PAYG and know it’s popular, but IMHO didn’t think about what it doesn’t do. I’ve always thought it doesn’t scale up nationally, it relies on all fares being singles, it doesn’t easily include the possibility of a first class fare, it’s not good for all railcard types. Also any scheme that relies on touches in and out will need gates almost everywhere, which needs people. Can it deal with differently priced but valid routes? Break of journey?
 

Class 170101

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They‘ve seen schemes such as Oyster PAYG and know it’s popular, but IMHO didn’t think about what it doesn’t do. I’ve always thought it doesn’t scale up nationally, it relies on all fares being singles,
Well yes maybe it does rely on proper single fares rather than the return only being 10p more expensive but surely thats the way the railway should be going anyway?

it doesn’t easily include the possibility of a first class fare,
Buy on train as an upgrade? Perhaps scan the entry door to first class and it reads the ticket for the journey you have, say Wigan to Warrington, standard fare and deducts the money automatically from the linked bank account.

it’s not good for all railcard types.
I thought you could load Railcards onto apps and it works that way?

Also any scheme that relies on touches in and out will need gates almost everywhere, which needs people.
No. Even some LUL stations are unmanned and have no gates, stations between Woodford and Hainault on the Central Line I don't think have barriers for example but have a Oyster Pad and I doubt they are staffed all day either.

Can it deal with differently priced but valid routes?
Does it need to? Why do different but equally valid routes need different prices anyway, see top response but it could force fares simplification.

Break of journey?
Daily Capping maybe?
 

Bald Rick

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Yes, of course you could go to a TVM or ticket machine but that is not nearly as convenient as what used to be commonplace previously - buying your ticket online and then collecting it from the machine.

what’s even more convenient is buying your ticket online - and then *not* having to worry about finding a machine to collect it from. Just go straight to the train instead, and save yourself a few minutes.
 

Watershed

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what’s even more convenient is buying your ticket online - and then *not* having to worry about finding a machine to collect it from. Just go straight to the train instead, and save yourself a few minutes.
Some people may find that more convenient. Others may in turn worry about their phone dying. There is no reason why both can't be accommodated.
 

NoOnesFool

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Electronic tickets are an important part of that customer satisfaction.
How long will it be before it's E tickets only? No phone, no travel? The railway started offering a card facility at ticket vending machines, presumably as they spun it as for "customer satisfaction" and now there is a problem where some stations only have machines which only take card. As someone who pays only in cash, this doesn't give me any satisfaction, quite the opposite. Perhaps the union and TransPennine staff also forsee what is happening and disagree with it.
 

nedchester

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How long will it be before it's E tickets only? No phone, no travel? The railway started offering a card facility at ticket vending machines, presumably as they spun it as for "customer satisfaction" and now there is a problem where some stations only have machines which only take card. As someone who pays only in cash, this doesn't give me any satisfaction, quite the opposite. Perhaps the union and TransPennine staff also forsee what is happening and disagree with it.

Many airlines have moved to the mobile and/or print your own technology with a reduction in price he use of same. The railway may be moving to that although it’ll be a 100% e-ticketing for a good while.

Cash is no longer king!
 

RPI

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How long will it be before it's E tickets only? No phone, no travel? The railway started offering a card facility at ticket vending machines, presumably as they spun it as for "customer satisfaction" and now there is a problem where some stations only have machines which only take card. As someone who pays only in cash, this doesn't give me any satisfaction, quite the opposite. Perhaps the union and TransPennine staff also forsee what is happening and disagree with it.
The main reason most Ticket Vending Machines are card only is because they were routinely ramraided when first installed as taking cash and card.

Majority of said Machines in Devon and Cornwall do take cash still.

Unfortunately people who only ever pay in cash are really in the minority these days, even my grandfather in his 80's uses mostly contactless these days!
 

NoOnesFool

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damaged pockets through carrying loads of ‘shrapnel’ around.
Coins have never damaged my pockets and I have plenty of them all day, everyday. I can safely tell you that taking a card payment onboard a train in the middle of the countryside is a lot more difficult than someone handing over coins.
 

43066

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As a mere customer, electronic tickets are one of the most helpful things to have happened on the railways in many years.
So much of the rest of the 'travel experience' is so old fashioned and, seemingly, unwilling to change.

You’ve repeatedly told the forum you rarely use the railways because you find them too expensive and you prefer to drive everywhere anyway. So how much do you really know about the “travel experience”?

And why do you care?

Yes you do, you need a machine called a printer!

Indeed. Not everyone has one. I certainly don’t!
 

skyhigh

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As someone who pays only in cash...
I can safely tell you that taking a card payment onboard a train in the middle of the countryside is a lot more difficult than someone handing over coins.
You can say that from your experience in only paying cash? The only time I ever had issues with card payments was in tunnels, whereas someone giving a £20 note for a £1.95 fare was much more common and time consuming!
 

NoOnesFool

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You can say that from your experience in only paying cash? The only time I ever had issues with card payments was in tunnels, whereas someone giving a £20 note for a £1.95 fare was much more common and time consuming!
No, I am talking about my experience with people wanting to pay me with CARD.
 

Bald Rick

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Coins have never damaged my pockets and I have plenty of them all day, everyday. I can safely tell you that taking a card payment onboard a train in the middle of the countryside is a lot more difficult than someone handing over coins.

lucky you. Coins damaged pockets in my trousers and jackets all the time; rarely would they last more than 12 months before developing holes. I always thought it was my keys, but since I stopped using cash 3 years ago I’ve not had a single hole in any of them. perhaps it’s a remarkable coincidence.
 

NoOnesFool

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lucky you. Coins damaged pockets in my trousers and jackets all the time; rarely would they last more than 12 months before developing holes. I always thought it was my keys, but since I stopped using cash 3 years ago I’ve not had a single hole in any of them. perhaps it’s a remarkable coincidence.
Might I suggest a wallet?
 

NorthernSpirit

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How long will it be before it's E tickets only? No phone, no travel?
Perhaps the union and TransPennine staff also forsee what is happening and disagree with it.
If/when this happens I can see industrial relations sour all the more and it just won't be just TransPennine - how long will it be before someone has forgotton their charger and their phones dead?
 

dk1

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If/when this happens I can see industrial relations sour all the more and it just won't be just TransPennine - how long will it be before someone has forgotton their charger and their phones dead?
You’ll always have that sort who just do not seem to be able to organise their lives properly. I don’t get it personally but they walk amongst us.
 

NoOnesFool

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If/when this happens I can see industrial relations sour all the more and it just won't be just TransPennine - how long will it be before someone has forgotton their charger and their phones dead?
Exactly, good point. How many people will 'try it on' as well with revenue staff "I bought a ticket on me phone but it died, honest!"
 

Killingworth

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I've bought tickets on my phone for years. My wife doesn't trust them and getting her Railcard renewed electronically phased her. She has it in there somewhere, I know she has, but can she find it for inspection? Very rarely. Never been an issue whenever it was supposed to be shown.

When travelling together belt and braces have to be applied;) I'll have tickets downloaded on my phone with bar coded confirmation by email. That I can read on both my phones and forward to hers. The email is also printed out - and we each carry a top up battery power bank for emergencies. Yes, extremely OTT but there really is no need to have old fashioned tickets paid for with cash.
 

Deafdoggie

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Exactly, good point. How many people will 'try it on' as well with revenue staff "I bought a ticket on me phone but it died, honest!"
No one tries it on at all at the moment do they!
"I've lost my wallet" "I've put them in a pocket, come back in a bit" etc, etc. The excuses with paper tickets is even longer.
 

43066

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lucky you. Coins damaged pockets in my trousers and jackets all the time; rarely would they last more than 12 months before developing holes. I always thought it was my keys, but since I stopped using cash 3 years ago I’ve not had a single hole in any of them. perhaps it’s a remarkable coincidence.

I can’t believe people seriously still prefer using cash to other methods of payment. It’s dirty, heavy and inconvenient and I was very glad to be able to stop using it almost entirely once contactless payment became widespread. Handling cash also incurs a significant cost and presents a security risk to the staff who have to deal with it.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I've bought tickets on my phone for years. My wife doesn't trust them and getting her Railcard renewed electronically phased her. She has it in there somewhere, I know she has, but can she find it for inspection? Very rarely. Never been an issue whenever it was supposed to be shown.
I have a small folding two-section travel card holder in which I keep both my ENCTS pass in one section and my three-year Senior Citizen Railcard in the other section, which fits neatly in my wallet and is easy to show when so required. I am 77 years of age.

I can’t believe people seriously still prefer using cash to other methods of payment. It’s dirty, heavy and inconvenient and I was very glad to be able to stop using it almost entirely once contactless payment became widespread. Handling cash also incurs a significant cost and presents a security risk to the staff who have to deal with it.
I find the modern £5, £10 and £20 notes fit neatly in the section of my wallet. Any cash given in change is taken out at the end of the day is then checked and three £1 coins are kept in the coat and the remainder in a big glass jar at home that every so often, is emptied by a member of a charity that I have known for over forty years, which ensures the money goes to a good cause.
 
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nedchester

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I can’t believe people seriously still prefer using cash to other methods of payment. It’s dirty, heavy and inconvenient and I was very glad to be able to stop using it almost entirely once contactless payment became widespread. Handling cash also incurs a significant cost and presents a security risk to the staff who have to deal with it.

On that we certainly agree. I hate using cash now , contactless is so much easier.

It does amuse me that someone who is such a proponent for paper tickets because “they’ve been used for years” is member of a railway forum on that newfangled technology called the internet. People used to argue with each other for years face to face!
 

baz962

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I can’t believe people seriously still prefer using cash to other methods of payment. It’s dirty, heavy and inconvenient and I was very glad to be able to stop using it almost entirely once contactless payment became widespread. Handling cash also incurs a significant cost and presents a security risk to the staff who have to deal with it.
It's a strange situation for some. I prefer to tap out for most things , but still prefer using paper tickets on the railway. Granted I have no real need now to have a ticket at all . I like tapping out and going and it's great on the underground. But I hate having to download and then show something on my phone. So if it's just tap and go then great. If there is a later inspection I prefer a paper ticket. My favourite takeaway only takes cash and a shop I went into last week only took cards .
 
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