Glasgow bus lane discussion

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Mod note: Posts #1-27 were originally in this thread:

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What these chats regarding what bus could go where, It brings me back round to the inept and snail pace the councils goes to understanding any of these problems areas with congestion around Glasgow.

Bus lanes constantly with parked cars on them and no ANPR cameras installed.

Perhaps even a lack of bus lanes likes on Crow Re from Anniesland Cross to the Expressway.

Great Western Road also has bus lanes but is constantly one lane from Botanic Gardens into the city centre.

 

[PaulMc7]

What these chats regarding what bus could go where, It brings me back round to the inept and snail pace the councils goes to understanding any of these problems areas with congestion around Glasgow.

Bus lanes constantly with parked cars on them and no ANPR cameras installed.

Perhaps even a lack of bus lanes likes on Crow Re from Anniesland Cross to the Expressway.

Great Western Road also has bus lanes but is constantly one lane from Botanic Gardens into the city centre.

The bus lane where I get the bus to work is a great example of this. It's all parked cars constantly and the lines are so faint at parts you'd barely know it was a bus lane. Never ever seen it monitored either.

The ones that are only set times is another issue. It's so pointless having them part time. Congestion is still an issue in Glasgow outside of peak times especially now with working patterns evolving.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

What these chats regarding what bus could go where, It brings me back round to the inept and snail pace the councils goes to understanding any of these problems areas with congestion around Glasgow.

Bus lanes constantly with parked cars on them and no ANPR cameras installed.

Perhaps even a lack of bus lanes likes on Crow Re from Anniesland Cross to the Expressway.

Great Western Road also has bus lanes but is constantly one lane from Botanic Gardens into the city centre.

What would be the point in a bus lane down Crow Road? There's only one bus - the 16 - that serves that route and it runs every 30 minutes. I've not taken the 4 into consideration as it only uses Crow Rd for a distance of 300m. A bus lane here would cause carnage all the way back up Bearsden Road.

 

[PaulMc7]

All main roads in Glasgow should be fully bus laned 24/7 where possible. It opens up the ability to have more possible routes across the city and it's as serious as you actually need to be to tackle congestion issues that affect buses.

Too many bus routes get caught up in multiple places due to the lack of bus lanes that are 24 hour and that needs to be addressed. It would also tackle the issue of horrendous parking on main roads.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

the specifics about bus lanes and there operation times depend on where they are implemented, Crow Rd should have a peak time bus lane even if just for the 16 or any other potential routes.

The point is, when anyone has to decide that there isn’t one needed based on one half-hourly service that thinking is exactly why bus lanes across Glasgow haven’t been given a toss about in years.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

the specifics about bus lanes and there operation times depend on where they are implemented, Crow Rd should have a peak time bus lane even if just for the 16 or any other potential routes.

The point is, when anyone has to decide that there isn’t one needed based on one half-hourly service that thinking is exactly why bus lanes across Glasgow haven’t been given a toss about in years.

Crow Road, especially between Gt Western Rd and Balshagray Ave, can be a nightmare during the morning and evening peaks. Putting in a bus lane for 1 bus service that operates a 30 minute frequency would be madness and cause more damage to the environment than any sane person would tolerate. I'm all for bus lanes when they are used appropriately but just putting them in for so little gain would be self defeating in the eyes of the general public.

Just my opinion though and others may feel differently.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Crow Road, especially between Gt Western Rd and Balshagray Ave, can be a nightmare during the morning and evening peaks. Putting in a bus lane for 1 bus service that operates a 30 minute frequency would be madness and cause more damage to the environment than any sane person would tolerate. I'm all for bus lanes when they are used appropriately but just putting them in for so little gain would be self defeating in the eyes of the general public.

Just my opinion though and others may feel differently.

Come perhaps 2035, when there are no new combustion cars being offered, does the environmental argument still stand?

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Adding bus lanes to roads like crow road would just cause choas. if any roads need them it should be Maryhill rd (sports center to st George's cross) , Duke st (parkhead cross to high Street ), gallowgate (from parkhead cross to trongate), shawlands merrylee road to city center) , Alexandra prade / Edinburgh rd ( westerhouse rd to royal infirmary) , paisley road west (quay to Glasgow road)

That would provide bus lanes across large sections of the 60/A,61,8,2,90,9/A,10,38A/B/C/E , 46 , 64 , 3 , 240 , 255 , 17(city bus) , 4(stagecoach), 29/A , 129 , 190


Quite a few of those routes are well know for struggling to keep to time

 

[PaulMc7]

Adding bus lanes to roads like crow road would just cause choas. if any roads need them it should be Maryhill rd (sports center to st George's cross) , Duke st (parkhead cross to high Street ), gallowgate (from parkhead cross to trongate), shawlands merrylee road to city center) , Alexandra prade / Edinburgh rd ( westerhouse rd to royal infirmary) , paisley road west (quay to Glasgow road)

That would provide bus lanes across large sections of the 60/A,61,8,2,90,9/A,10,38A/B/C/E , 46 , 64 , 3 , 240 , 255 , 17(city bus) , 4(stagecoach), 29/A , 129 , 190


Quite a few of those routes are well know for struggling to keep to time

Crow Road having a bus lane opens up a lot of options for the future if passenger loads allow it. It also allows for an alternative X4 route too as well as potential express routes.

If people choose to stick with cars then they can deal with the congestion they cause. Not everyone can ditch cars but so many can and this needs to be targeted with a bus lane everywhere approach.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Come perhaps 2035, when there are no new combustion cars being offered, does the environmental argument still stand?

Ask me then, we are talking about the here and now. If there were a number of services using Crow Rd then the need for a bus lane could, perhaps, be justified. My argument is that, at this juncture, putting a bus lane in Crow Rd for a poorly patronised bus service that runs every 30 minutes would, in my opinion, be crazy.

 

[ScotRail158725]

All main roads in Glasgow should be fully bus laned 24/7 where possible. It opens up the ability to have more possible routes across the city and it's as serious as you actually need to be to tackle congestion issues that affect buses.

That would more than likely have more of a detrimental effect on the environment than not adding anymore bus lanes

Crow Road having a bus lane opens up a lot of options for the future if passenger loads allow it. It also allows for an alternative X4 route too as well as potential express routes.

You mean it allows for your idea of an alternative X4 that you’ve mentioned here multiple times before

 

[PaulMc7]

That would more than likely have more of a detrimental effect on the environment than not adding anymore bus lanes


You mean it allows for your idea of an alternative X4 that you’ve mentioned here multiple times before

2 things:

If you actually try and tackle the problem people will switch if buses are quicker as well as cheaper and with the X4 thing I've never suggested anything to do with Crow Road other than the 2 stops at Broomhill to link with the 4/4A so what I've said previously is irrelevant as this wouldn't even be that route.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Crow Road having a bus lane opens up a lot of options for the future if passenger loads allow it. It also allows for an alternative X4 route too as well as potential express routes.

If people choose to stick with cars then they can deal with the congestion they cause. Not everyone can ditch cars but so many can and this needs to be targeted with a bus lane everywhere approach.

You make a valid point but unfortunately it's a chicken and egg situation. Do you introduce a bus lane whilst at the same time routing new or existing services along Crow Road? What happens if the bus services are later withdrawn due to poor patronage. A council run service might continue on the basis of social need but a commercial service wouldn't. I can't see First - or any other operator - increasing their services using Crow Road at the moment due to potential traffic concerns but on the other hand I don't see the council, or the Jordanhill Blue Rinse brigade, allowing a bus lane either without the need being demonstrated by the sight of queuing buses.

I've already commented earlier that I think that re-routing the X4 via Crow Road would be a good idea so I'm broadly in agreement with you but it is fraught with difficulties.

 

[ScotRail158725]

If you actually try and tackle the problem people will switch if buses are quicker

Buses will never be quicker from A to B than a car, Stopping at stops, indirect routes etc… A bus lane here or there wont fix anything if anything it will just move the congestion and cause bottlenecks, and a bus lane will have a minimal increase if any on passenger usage on buses from cars

 

[PaulMc7]

You make a valid point but unfortunately it's a chicken and egg situation. Do you introduce a bus lane whilst at the same time routing new or existing services along Crow Road? What happens if the bus services are later withdrawn due to poor patronage. A council run service might continue on the basis of social need but a commercial service wouldn't. I can't see First - or any other operator - increasing their services using Crow Road at the moment due to potential traffic concerns but on the other hand I don't see the council, or the Jordanhill Blue Rinse brigade, allowing a bus lane either without the need being demonstrated by the sight of queuing buses.

I've already commented earlier that I think that re-routing the X4 via Crow Road would be a good idea so I'm broadly in agreement with you but it is fraught with difficulties.

This is why it has to be a citywide thing and not just one specific road. If you tackle everywhere in one go it'll start to eat into the issue far more effectively. It would also allow an extension of the 4/4A back up to Knightswood if people started to switch eventually with Crow Road. I think people forget the 16 itself back in the day used to be more frequent than every 30 mins. As soon as it came back as a hospital route and not a city centre link it went downhill.

There was even a point with Simplicity that it would have been commenced without the 19A going to Blairdardie but people raised their concerns and it remained a route.

Buses will never be quicker from A to B than a car, Stopping at stops, indirect routes etc… A bus lane here or there wont fix anything if anything it will just move the congestion and cause bottlenecks, and a bus lane will have a minimal increase if any on passenger usage on buses from cars

With the cost of living as it is people won't have a choice but to switch. 3 litres of petrol is practically the price of an all day ticket now and you get more from the all day.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

With the cost of living as it is people won't have a choice but to switch. 3 litres of petrol is practically the price of an all day ticket now and you get more from the all day.

Unfortunately, whilst I would like to see more use of buses and trains. I think that the cost of fuel will more likely encourage people to work from home whenever they can rather than push them onto public transport.

 

[PaulMc7]

Unfortunately, whilst I would like to see more use of buses and trains. I think that the cost of fuel will more likely encourage people to work from home whenever they can rather than push them onto public transport.

With energy bills as they are and expected to rise a lot again in October it's cheaper to work in the office so I wouldn't be so sure. It's also something that suits some people but not others. Leisure travel is also something that needs to still be provided and if you can encourage that by making journeys quicker then it'll happen.

I guess I'm just sick of the attitude of doing nothing to fix something we all know is a massive problem although that's more diverted at politicians than anyone else. Even the reimbursement rates for the under 22 passes are a bit of a joke and probably not helping First at all at the minute.

The fact they're a thing though is key because you can essentially build the next generation of bus users and with the drive towards electric cars ramping up in the next few years they're not cheap either currently so it's not all doom and gloom but only if First and the council/government get things right.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Ask me then, we are talking about the here and now. If there were a number of services using Crow Rd then the need for a bus lane could, perhaps, be justified. My argument is that, at this juncture, putting a bus lane in Crow Rd for a poorly patronised bus service that runs every 30 minutes would, in my opinion, be crazy.

So basically citizens are biding time until such times as people may have far little choice but to cycle, walk or take a bus through extra charges.

I realised buses need to be cheaper to use, however, that process has clearly already begun with the GOV offering free travel to the younger people.

 

[PaulMc7]

In my opinion the rise in energy bills will be more likely to encourage employers to get employees to work from home than the other way around. Get your employees to pay for the electricity whilst reducing your office footprint.

In respect of leisure travel most of this is done out-with peak periods so this sector of the travelling public don't suffer as much. Certainly not enough to encourage greater bus lanes usage.

Getting the public to make more use of buses and trains and get them out of cars will take a lot more than bus lanes though. I don't have the answers but just because I don't know how to solve a problem doesn't mean that the problem is insurmountable - but it will take a generation to change mindsets. By and large, politicians work in the here and now. Trying to get them to agree to a 25 year plan is nigh on impossible.

Strangely enough these days my bus around peak times seems to run on time more than a lot of the off peak ones and even before Covid this happened a lot. It will take a generation which is why politicians especially need to think of the here and now. The bus passes for under 22s, bus lanes is another and to be honest the next 2 things that need to be done is more communication on a regular basis between politicians and bus operators and funding for bus operators being ramped up to match trains.

That's one that always infuriated me. One train company getting so much more than every bus company combined.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Strangely enough these days my bus around peak times seems to run on time more than a lot of the off peak ones and even before Covid this happened a lot. It will take a generation which is why politicians especially need to think of the here and now. The bus passes for under 22s, bus lanes is another and to be honest the next 2 things that need to be done is more communication on a regular basis between politicians and bus operators and funding for bus operators being ramped up to match trains.

That's one that always infuriated me. One train company getting so much more than every bus company combined.

You're spot on with the grants that train operators get. I recently booked my wife and daughter on the train from Glasgow to Rugby. The price included booked seats and the cost was £16 single. It costs you almost as much to get from Glasgow to Edinburgh by bus.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

The other issue with a crow road bus lane is that you would invariably push more traffic on to Maryhill rd , byres rd and great Western road plus in terms of bus routes it's pretty minor with 1 route using it to a total of 56 buses a day , Duke Street by comparison averages 22 buses an hour from 7am till nearly 8pm with the last bus being well after midnight and the first bus being about 5am

 

[PaulMc7]

The other issue with a crow road bus lane is that you would invariably push more traffic on to Maryhill rd , byres rd and great Western road plus in terms of bus routes it's pretty minor with 1 route using it to a total of 56 buses a day , Duke Street by comparison averages 22 buses an hour from 7am till nearly 8pm with the last bus being well after midnight and the first bus being about 5am

This is why it needs to be citywide and all at once. If people still use cars afterwards then more fool them than bus users because so many have bus options but chose not to use them

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

This is why it needs to be citywide and all at once. If people still use cars afterwards then more fool them than bus users because so many have bus options but chose not to use them

Absolutely.

On another note, there seemed to be less cancellations today compared to most days because of the driver shortage. I highly doubt it but I'd love to be confident at some point that every single day is a lot better. Seeing the training buses from Scotstoun out on a daily basis now.

Wouldn’t we all.

The other issue with a crow road bus lane is that you would invariably push more traffic on to Maryhill rd , byres rd and great Western road plus in terms of bus routes it's pretty minor with 1 route using it to a total of 56 buses a day , Duke Street by comparison averages 22 buses an hour from 7am till nearly 8pm with the last bus being well after midnight and the first bus being about 5am

Yet in the hypothetical circumstance that a bus lane was placed on crow road you’d think those other roads - Maryhill Rd and GWR would easily qualify even more so for heavily controlled bus lanes.

Byres Rd and many others are harder to implement restrictions on because of there single lane/parking bay scenario.

 

[92002]

Adding bus lanes to roads like crow road would just cause choas. if any roads need them it should be Maryhill rd (sports center to st George's cross) , Duke st (parkhead cross to high Street ), gallowgate (from parkhead cross to trongate), shawlands merrylee road to city center) , Alexandra prade / Edinburgh rd ( westerhouse rd to royal infirmary) , paisley road west (quay to Glasgow road)

That would provide bus lanes across large sections of the 60/A,61,8,2,90,9/A,10,38A/B/C/E , 46 , 64 , 3 , 240 , 255 , 17(city bus) , 4(stagecoach), 29/A , 129 , 190


Quite a few of those routes are well know for struggling to keep to time

The existing bud lanes in Maryhill Road see regular parking and no enforcement. So extending these would probably just be more waste of paint.

The one which is crying out for a bus lanes is Byres Road. In fact with more parking restrictions at the the same time. No matter where new bus lanes are placed there nerds to be enforcement. Couldn't say I have seen much.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

The existing bud lanes in Maryhill Road see regular parking and no enforcement. So extending these would probably just be more waste of paint.

The one which is crying out for a bus lanes is Byres Road. In fact with more parking restrictions at the the same time. No matter where new bus lanes are placed there nerds to be enforcement. Couldn't say I have seen much.

The bus lanes on Maryhill road are part time lanes and when they are in operation they are usually pretty clear

 

[PaulMc7]

The existing bud lanes in Maryhill Road see regular parking and no enforcement. So extending these would probably just be more waste of paint.

The one which is crying out for a bus lanes is Byres Road. In fact with more parking restrictions at the the same time. No matter where new bus lanes are placed there nerds to be enforcement. Couldn't say I have seen much.

If enforcement actually ends up better, more bus lanes would work in the city to speed up bus journeys. You could probably get journey time down considerably on some routes. The likes of the 2/3/6/90 etc could be a lot more reliable too.

 

[adrock1976]

All main roads in Glasgow should be fully bus laned 24/7 where possible. It opens up the ability to have more possible routes across the city and it's as serious as you actually need to be to tackle congestion issues that affect buses.

Too many bus routes get caught up in multiple places due to the lack of bus lanes that are 24 hour and that needs to be addressed. It would also tackle the issue of horrendous parking on main roads.

I would only support bus lanes having 24 hour operation if there was a 24 hour bus service to match.

I would however support 12 hour operation from 7AM to 7PM, which is reasonable.

Back in either 2012 or 2017 council elections, I do recall the SNP councillor Malcolm Balfour (who was a former bus driver so knows exactly what he is talking about) calling for a review of bus lane operation in the city centre, as there were various ones that had 24 hour operation (dating back to Overground days where there were several routes that had 24 hour operation e.g. the 62, 12, 9, etc) but nothing now runs for 24 hours continuously.

 

[PaulMc7]

I would only support bus lanes having 24 hour operation if there was a 24 hour bus service to match.

I would however support 12 hour operation from 7AM to 7PM, which is reasonable.

Back in either 2012 or 2017 council elections, I do recall the SNP councillor Malcolm Balfour (who was a former bus driver so knows exactly what he is talking about) calling for a review of bus lane operation in the city centre, as there were various ones that had 24 hour operation (dating back to Overground days where there were several routes that had 24 hour operation e.g. the 62, 12, 9, etc) but nothing now runs for 24 hours continuously.

Part of everything has to be subsidy for through the night services IMO. They also need to do a lot more to encourage people to become drivers too. There's not enough involvement from politicians in helping the current situation. Hopefully now things might pick up with the council elections over and done with but I won't hold my breath.

If you create 24 hour services you'll get people out of cars. A lot of people struggle due to the fact very few first buses of the morning are before 6am.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

If you create 24 hour services you'll get people out of cars. A lot of people struggle due to the fact very few first buses of the morning are before 6am.

There's very few parts of Glasgow where there is not a bus to at least the city center pre 6am

 

[PaulMc7]

There's very few parts of Glasgow where there is not a bus to at least the city center pre 6am

In terms of actually getting you into the city centre before 6am there's very few that do it comfortably.