• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Manchester & North West Transformation Programme

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,692
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
Four car 331s would be more use replacing the current 319/323 operating on the LIV-MAN via Chat Moss corridor.
Platform extensions have been announced on the Chat Moss line which implies that there are ambitions to run pairs of 323s on that route.

I’m not aware of any plans to lengthen platforms on the Liverpool to Wigan line which would imply that they plan to use 331/1s, although I think that the loadings on that route justify six carriage trains.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

childwallblues

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,823
Location
Liverpool, UK
Platform extensions have been announced on the Chat Moss line which implies that there are ambitions to run pairs of 323s on that route.

I’m not aware of any plans to lengthen platforms on the Liverpool to Wigan line which would imply that they plan to use 331/1s, although I think that the loadings on that route justify six carriage trains.
Which platforms are to be lengthened on the Chat Moss please? I know that both Patricroft and Eccles originally had lengthy platforms as the remnants of them are still there.
 

Legolash2o

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2018
Messages
601
Apologies for the potentially daft question. Which line is the CLC line? The one marked A or B?

1648677925477.png
 

Legolash2o

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2018
Messages
601

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Stoke will remain 3 car 323 operated as nothing else apart from a 319 (and that is a tight squeeze) will fit in the bay at Stoke.

Journey check is currently showing Stoke services being formed of 6 carriages instead of 3 due to an 'unusually large flow of passengers'.
 

Mamorin

Member
Joined
21 Sep 2020
Messages
284
Location
Cheshire
Journey check is currently showing Stoke services being formed of 6 carriages instead of 3 due to an 'unusually large flow of passengers'.
Yes I’ve seen that been like that for a while, however this only because of the higher than normal passenger numbers on Saturdays, once this dies down Stoke services will go back to 3 car services again.

Although at this point I feel the bay at stoke needs extending so that when the 323s are replaced they can be replaced by 4 car units, as Stoke services could really do with being 4 car units at minimum.

First one this afternoon shown on the Manchester bound platform (Platform 2?)
It’s that way all day as due to high passenger numbers all Stoke services are 6 car services on Saturdays. (Units permiting of course)

That is absolutely pathetic. It infuriates me that a proper service can’t be introduced as a result of something like this. No wonder people get in their cars.
It infuriates me as well, sadly I don’t see Northern and the unions ever coming to an agreement over this.

Only station on the stoke line with a chance of getting an hourly Sunday service is Congleton, but that would require Cross Country or Avanti to make the calls and I can’t see that happening.
 
Last edited:

adamedwards

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2016
Messages
796
Curious that the bay is only 3 car. A very long time ago (1970s) I can remember the Stoke to Manchester local being a more interesting train as it used to be a 310 unit not a 304. So 4 car. So has the bay got shorter for safety reasons? Or did it not use it as there was a much less frequent service to London so it could reverse in the mainline platforms?
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
11,945
Location
UK
Curious that the bay is only 3 car. A very long time ago (1970s) I can remember the Stoke to Manchester local being a more interesting train as it used to be a 310 unit not a 304. So 4 car. So has the bay got shorter for safety reasons? Or did it not use it as there was a much less frequent service to London so it could reverse in the mainline platforms?
Older units tended to have shorter coaches. Nowadays the 323s and 331s etc. have 23m coaches so you can often only fit a 3 coach train into the same platform that a 4 coach 310 could fit.
 

Mamorin

Member
Joined
21 Sep 2020
Messages
284
Location
Cheshire
You can fit a 319 in the bay at Stoke but it’s a tight squeeze.

Exactly this kind of procedure happens all over the Northern network, at stations including Hazel Grove, Hexham, New Mills Central, Adwick, Preston, Morpeth, Warrington Central & Bank Quay, Horsforth, Alderley Edge, Metrocentre, Crewe, Chathill, Clitheroe and Ribblehead. Plus at Oxford Road on a Sunday morning, not to mention the vast majority of other operators also do it.

It's nothing new and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Yes, training and a defined method of operation may be required, but it's really not the end of the world and it certainly wouldn't be a roadblock if that were the way things were heading.


With respect, Stoke is not that busy. You've got 2tph Avanti, 1tph EMR, WMT, XC and Northern. 6 trains per hour each way in total. It really would not be insoluble, particularly given the fact that the through platforms are bidirectionally signalled.


That's probably more the salient point. The 323s are well suited to the line in many respects and there is no real reason to go to the effort of replacing them with something else.
Didn’t know the signals on the through platforms Stoke are bidirectionally signalled. Learn something new everyday.

Given the through platforms at Stoke are bidirectionally signalled, and there is pathing space for 6 car 323 working maybe once the 17 WMT sets arrive Stoke services could go to 6 car working. But I don’t know if that will happen.
 
Last edited:

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
7,672
Location
Leeds
A 6 car turn back siding is in the process of being built right now on the Northern side ....we were briefed on this a few weeks ago
Is this happening (at Manchester Victoria) as claimed in the quoted post of 9 March?
 

Geeves

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2009
Messages
1,911
Location
Rochdale
From my own observations they have been working in the area of the old East Junction loop line viaduct area for quite some time but it's hard to see what they are doing. From a distance it still looks the same
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,366
Location
The White Rose County
Is this happening (at Manchester Victoria) as claimed in the quoted post of 9 March?

I actually asked for an update on this internally, not had a reply yet

This might have your answer...

'Tranche 1 Works 3.10 Following DfT confirmation of a development and design funding allocation of £26m which will fund Network Rail to develop Tranche 1 to Full Business Case and further development of Tranches 2 and 3, Network Rail have now let design contracts for key Tranche 1 works. This includes the 3rd platform at Salford Crescent, Salford area east facing turnback, new northwest platform at Manchester Victoria and Manchester Airport station platform lengthening and track layout.'


Transport for the North Rail North Committee Agenda, Wednesday 09 March 2022, page 19
 

td97

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2017
Messages
1,292
This includes the 3rd platform at Salford Crescent, Salford area east facing turnback, new northwest platform at Manchester Victoria and Manchester Airport station platform lengthening and track layout.'
The turnback and new platform at Victoria are separate, stand-alone projects.

Missing from that list is Manchester Oxford Road remodelling, which has been contracted to WSP as designers.
 

cslusarc

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2011
Messages
134
Is the future Manchester Victoria Northwest bay platform for Anglo-Scottish and Cumbrian services now terminating at Manchester Airport to relieve congestion on the Castlefield Corridor?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,267
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Is the future Manchester Victoria Northwest bay platform for Anglo-Scottish and Cumbrian services now terminating at Manchester Airport to relieve congestion on the Castlefield Corridor?
That should go down like the proverbial lead balloon with prospective airline passengers from those areas who then will still need to travel onwards to Manchester Airport to catch their flights.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,835
Location
Southport
This includes the 3rd platform at Salford Crescent, Salford area east facing turnback, new northwest platform at Manchester Victoria and Manchester Airport station platform lengthening and track layout.'
I assume this 3rd platform at Salford Crescent will be on the present through line and not involve any track work, with the centre platform becoming bi-directional. What does it mean east facing turnback? There is no shortage of east facing capacity at either Piccadilly or Victoria. The real problem is west facing terminal capacity.
That should go down like the proverbial lead balloon with prospective airline passengers from those areas who then will still need to travel onwards to Manchester Airport to catch their flights.
If the services went via Bolton they could change there. 2tph Bolton - Airport would help with that. Aren’t both of these things happening? Otherwise Victoria - Airport via the Ordsall Chord or even the Metrolink exist.
 

Agent_Squash

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2016
Messages
1,231
Is the future Manchester Victoria Northwest bay platform for Anglo-Scottish and Cumbrian services now terminating at Manchester Airport to relieve congestion on the Castlefield Corridor?
They are the two services that won’t be removed from the corridor, whether people like it or not.

Cutting off the Lake District from the nearest airport? That would down well in what was a Lib Dem marginal…

Much better to remove the closer services, such as Southport.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,537
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
They are the two services that won’t be removed from the corridor, whether people like it or not.

Cutting off the Lake District from the nearest airport? That would down well in what was a Lib Dem marginal…

Much better to remove the closer services, such as Southport.

You don't need to terminate Southports in a bay if they are moved to Vic, they can run through somewhere else. I think the TfW is likely to be involved here, but it won't be popular...

Like the great white elephant already built west of Vic, I suspect it won't end up heavily used.

What is needed is Picc 15/16.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,438
Location
The North
Why does this notion of a link to Piccadilly being so important still persist? Access to jobs is not an applicable answer and in many cases, rail connections are not the answer either.

Manchester a complete overhaul of its services. It needs west bays at Victoria, P15 & P16 at Piccadilly and 3 additional platforms at Salford Central.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,537
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Why does this notion of a link to Piccadilly being so important still persist? Access to jobs is not an applicable answer and in many cases, rail connections are not the answer either.

How is access to jobs not an answer?

Personally I'd like to see the signalling centre at Salford moved and Salford Crescent changed to two islands for quality cross platform interchange both ways including the Atherton line, then it doesn't matter. A third platform is very much sub optimal as it reduces the quality of the interchange (though helps overcrowding, but so would shifting the track over and building one larger island).

Manchester a complete overhaul of its services. It needs west bays at Victoria, P15 & P16 at Piccadilly and 3 additional platforms at Salford Central.

And Vic needs a total rebuild, it remains an abject fume filled dump. If it isn't going to be possible to dump the Arena, then a mezzanine.
 

themiller

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2011
Messages
1,056
Location
Cumbria, UK
And Vic needs a total rebuild, it remains an abject fume filled dump. If it isn't going to be possible to dump the Arena, then a mezzanine.
Fumes should be reduced/removed as a result of electrification but I agree about the through platforms being sub-optimal as regards natural daylight.
 

rapmastaj

Member
Joined
8 Oct 2021
Messages
132
Location
Leeds
Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly feel like one of the weakest links in the entire UK rail network. The lack of space there, in relation to their centrality for rail connections across the whole of the North of England, is beyond a joke. Seriously when will platform 15/16 get built?
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,229
Location
Greater Manchester
What does it mean east facing turnback? There is no shortage of east facing capacity at either Piccadilly or Victoria.
The existing east facing turnbacks at Victoria (Platforms 1 and 2, and the reversing siding west of the station) are all on the south side. Trains to/from the Rochdale lines have to cross the eastern throat to use them, which restricts capacity. Also the bays are only 4-car length.

Presumably the additional turnback will be accessed from Platforms 5 and 6.
 

Top