• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Doors opened wrong side at Wigan

Status
Not open for further replies.

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,398
Location
UK
On modern units with ASDO, does that system actually prevent a wrong side release? I understand these systems work by authorising doors to open, and I would assume that doors on the wrong side wouldn't be authorised

It's a dual system. ASDO doesn't work by itself. In the Thameslink Core the "authority" is provided by the "balise" those give the system the information. Outside the Thameslink Core the system works as normal and wrong sides, and stop shorts can, and do, happen.

With units (such as a 375) The system works alongside GPS. However the accruacy is terrible so you can still open on the wrong side and when your not in the platform.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Inthewest

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2020
Messages
93
Location
The West
Not sure whether we should be suggesting that leaning on a door should be okay though?
Even if it is "locked" - I'd never lean on a door while a train (or aeroplane) is in motion.

Reading through, there seems to be a lot of "what if's" here too. It's highly unlikely that a whole set of circumstances would happen at the same time to result in a death. Not impossible no but does that mean we should invest tens of thousands of pounds over a "what if"? To an extent maybe but you can't put measures in place to fit every set of circumstances.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,532
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
On modern units with ASDO, does that system actually prevent a wrong side release? I understand these systems work by authorising doors to open, and I would assume that doors on the wrong side wouldn't be authorised

Depends what type of ASDO. GPS isn't accurate enough to determine which platform you're on, but a beacon-based system could be.

Not sure whether we should be suggesting that leaning on a door should be okay though?
Even if it is "locked" - I'd never lean on a door while a train (or aeroplane) is in motion.

You'd be fine doing it on a plane, the door opens inwards (so the cabin pressure holds it shut) and the pressure is well in excess of the force you would exert on it by leaning on it. Even those doors that appear to open outwards actually open inwards first in some way. The only way in which you could cause an aircraft door to come open in flight would be if the cabin was depressurised first. (Useful to know to avoid you getting scared if some muppet does try to open it in flight!)

On a train it's rather unwise, though, and in slamdoor days it has killed people.
 

Scott M

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2014
Messages
395
Is it easy to do a wrong side door release, like are the buttons right next to each other so “fat fingers” could be blamed or are they on different sides of the dash board?
 

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
2,081
I was on a Northern Train about 15 years ago travelling between Manchester Victoria & Wigan Wallgate on one of the evening services.

There was an issue with one of the doors not closing properly and the guard made the decision to turf everyone off the train at Salford Crescent.

I did think it was overkill at the time, but overkill or not - safety is safety and the guard was being very robust. I have noticed over the years that the doors on the old pacer units are very temperamental.

CJ
Any decision like that will have been taken by control after liaison with the traincrew based on what the fault was and the rulebook and contingency for that fault. The guard will not have made that decision. If the fault is for example with an end door on a single pacer requiring the door to be mechanically locked so it can't be used as an emergency exit then it would not be able to carry on in passenger service under the rulebook.
 

Dieseldriver

Member
Joined
9 Apr 2012
Messages
971
Is it easy to do a wrong side door release, like are the buttons right next to each other so “fat fingers” could be blamed or are they on different sides of the dash board?
The reason incidents like this are easy to do is down to the repetitive nature of the role, some tasks become a reflex action.
If you think day in day out how many times a driver has released the doors after stopping sometimes on the left, sometimes on the right, coming in on a red, coming in on a yellow, 5 coaches now, 2 coaches later, that blokes stood a bit close to the platform edge, that pway bloke is acknowledging me isn't he?, ESR of 20 ahead don't forget that, desperate for a wee only two more stops till I get a turnaround, hopefully they grant my leave for that social event, knackered today only one more 3am alarm call till three days off, that 20 ESR is now a 40, that 40 ESR is now a 20 again... Then on the 864th day it's a 3 coach train, you're well rested, you're running on greens, you stop at the 3 car mark with the platform on the right hand side, you reach for the left hand door release buttons and at that split second the most insignificant of thoughts enter your mind, you ponder on that thought for a second just as you press the door release buttons almost as a reflex action. There we go, you've had a wrong side door release. Sometimes it's the stupidest, most insignificant distraction, sometimes it's a series of distractions but either way, you've had a SOL incident (be that a TPWS activation/intervention, SPAD, fail to call, overshoot, stop short, stop short door release, collision or a wrong side door release.
In a job where its not acceptable to make a mistake, it's incredibly difficult to prevent yourself from making a mistake when performing these tasks day in day out.
Speaking as a Driver, I actually find it incredible that Drivers don't have more SOL incidents.
Quick edit, I just noticed on reading through my post after I submitted it that I forgot to put a close bracket after listing the potential incidents, that's an incident right there.
 

Speed43125

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2019
Messages
1,131
Location
Dunblane
Makes me thing about 20 years ago at Wilmslow, the West Coast and indeed VT Mk3's with door locking would be released on the platform but I think the rear 2 carriages were not on the platform. There were signs saying 'Do not alight here'.
Plenty of those up here in Scotland were still in use until LNER HSTs were withdrawn last year.
 

Intermodal

Established Member
Joined
3 Nov 2010
Messages
1,251
Location
I wonder how long I can make my location on this f
On modern units with ASDO, does that system actually prevent a wrong side release? I understand these systems work by authorising doors to open, and I would assume that doors on the wrong side wouldn't be authorised
There are some systems that do prevent this - whether it's part of ASDO or a separate system I'm not sure. I know for sure it exists though - attempting a wrong side release is still treated seriously even if the doors do not release due to the safety system - akin to a TPWS intervention that doesn't lead to a SPAD.

Edit: Sorry, just saw this got answered. I was viewing an old version of the thread!
 

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
3,748
It feels like a similar argument for people who cause injury and/or death while driving. People make mistakes all the time, those mistakes kill hundreds of people a year, but those making the mistakes rarely go to prison.
A car driver who makes a decision to drive when drunk or drive at excessive speed or for long periods when tired may go the prison if someone is killed, a car driver who has an accident or makes a mistake while otherwise driving sensibly will not, yes there are exceptions to this but not many.
 

PupCuff

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2020
Messages
498
Location
Nottingham
The key areas where these things could become a criminal matter are manslaughter by gross negligence, failure to take reasonable care for the health and safety of himself or any persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions, or endangering the safety of a person on the railway by unlawful act or wilful omission or neglect.

They're all very very very high bars to even be considered of committing, let alone end up prosecuted for, be convicted of, and go to prison for. An example being a train driver who knowingly took his loco on a run off the depot without two of his safety systems working and then failed to notify the signaller when his speedometer stopped working resulting in speeding taking place, all of which are serious wilful omissions in themselves, received a £2000 fine when prosecuted. A comparison with road traffic law isn't generally helpful as the law sets different standards to your average road users as it does to someone who holds a duty of care in a work environment, such as the manager of a shop or the conductor of a train.

We investigate these incidents within industry thoroughly so that we can put things in place to reduce the risk of staff making these mistakes - no amount of controls is ever going to completely eliminate a risk, but if as a result of an incident we find out one of our people is struggling through a messy breakup we can arrange support before they go out working trains again, if we find out that crews aren't following an instruction because there's a mistake in it we can reissue the instruction correctly so other people don't have to work around the mistake, if we find out that at a certain location the car stop markers are on the "wrong" side we can look at whether there's anything we can do about swapping the sides or putting some kind of sign up to highlight that risk.

It was touched on before that loco hauled sets used to stop at short platforms where some doors weren't on the platform - the key differences with that are first of all that we're always looking at ways to reduce the risk so things that happened in the past don't any more, but also when you consider slam door stock you have to physically open the window, lean out, and operate the handle. It's at this point that there's a much greater probability the door user will identify that there is no platform there and stop what they're trying to do whereas operating a push button from the inside you don't have to even be looking at the door, let alone out the window, before you operate the controls, and there's more likely to be glare on the glass from lighting inside the train reducing visibility of whether there is a platform there or not.
 

Skoodle

Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
358
On modern units with ASDO, does that system actually prevent a wrong side release? I understand these systems work by authorising doors to open, and I would assume that doors on the wrong side wouldn't be authorised
On 378s, when SDO was introduced a few years ago, it was integrated with CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable). So the balise not only tells the train how many doors to release, but on which side. If we inadvertently attempt to release on the wrong side, it won't release the doors. It will flash up on the TCMS with a red warning and fault alarm going off. Does get your heart pumping when the fault alarm goes off at Surrey Quays (unrelated issue) every time you release the doors.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,217
Location
London
On 378s, when SDO was introduced a few years ago, it was integrated with CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable). So the balise not only tells the train how many doors to release, but on which side. If we inadvertently attempt to release on the wrong side, it won't release the doors. It will flash up on the TCMS with a red warning and fault alarm going off. Does get your heart pumping when the fault alarm goes off at Surrey Quays (unrelated issue) every time you release the doors.

Is there SDO (and CSDE) fitted over the whole ARL network?
 

Skoodle

Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
358
Does the unit automatically fire off an email to the Managers when that happens?
Sure does, any time we get a "Red" fault, it's automatically reported to Bombardier.

Is there SDO (and CSDE) fitted over the whole ARL network?
As far as I'm aware, yes. Not sure about West Anglia side but with the 710s in now, I'd be surprised if it wasn't.
 

jettofab

Member
Joined
2 May 2020
Messages
45
Location
North West
Speaking as a Driver, I actually find it incredible that Drivers don't have more SOL incidents.

A million times this. While 0 incidents should always be the aim it is really something to expect that no driver should ever make a mistake over a long career. The culture such an expectation creates is not good...
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,181
I don’t want to turn this into a DOO thread, but I know most guards who do door release (limited TOCs now!) have had at least one occasion where the driver has stopped short and not noticed, the guard has protected against that. It’s also tricky as a guard to do wrong side releases (not impossible because of gully/emergency platforms).

I’ve got no issues against driver release as long as ASDO works on a “counting in” bases and is supplemented by CSDE.

Unrelated but interesting, there was an incident at Seaford a few years ago where the driver had changed ends and set up the cab, departure time came around and so pressed door close but saw a passenger running, thought they’d be nice and put up another door release to allow the runner to join but put the release up on the wrong side. platform face was now on the Non driver side but was on driver side on arrival.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,217
Location
London
Unrelated but interesting, there was an incident at Seaford a few years ago where the driver had changed ends and set up the cab, departure time came around and so pressed door close but saw a passenger running, thought they’d be nice and put up another door release to allow the runner to join but put the release up on the wrong side. platform face was now on the Non driver side but was on driver side on arrival.

Re-releasing is a real trap and has been behind many wrong side releases. It’s especially risky where you have external monitors on the opposite side of the train to the platform.

It’s generally a bad idea. I stopped doing it because, all too often, the person I’d re-released for either didn’t board the train, or held the doors open to wait for their mates to join them!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top