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Relaxing restrictions for Christmas Day

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yorkie

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I'm struggling to understand how the no mixing rules are being enforced now, never mind how they would be at Christmas time, Pretti Patel to re-launch the 'snitch on a neighbour' campaign perhaps?

Can you imagine the police knocking on peoples doors on Christmas Day and arresting relatives who shouldn't be there?

If you wanted to instigate civil unrest, that would be a sure way of going about it!
The vast majority of people comply with the majority of the legislation most of the time, so it's not really a question of enforcement.

I agree it can't be enforced (except for blatantly obvious large groups having parties)
I agree that’s wrong, but alcohol has been readily available at considerably cheaper prices in shops throughout the entire lockdown period anyway .
Surely that just makes things worse. The real issue here is the lack of support and human contact for many people.
 
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C J Snarzell

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Surely that just makes things worse. The real issue here is the lack of support and human contact for many people.

Exactly, which has resulted in many relapses and deaths/suicides (non Covid) because people have been denied their vital support networks.

CJ
 

DelayRepay

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This is true; the holiday at that time of year pre-dates Christianity by a long way, and is to celebrate the winter solstice and the days getting longer!

Indeed. I know many people who are not Christians who still enjoy celebrating Christmas. It's something to look forward to during the cold and dark days of November. I think we need that more than ever this year.

I am going to say again what I said on another thread: I understand there is a risk associated with families mixing, especially when elderly relatives are involved, perhaps mixing with student grandchildren just back from Uni. But, this is a risk people should judge for themselves.

I think there are some elderly people who realise this might be their last Christmas, and would prefer to spend it with family and take the risk of Covid, than spend it alone at home and/or have a Zoom Christmas dinner (really, I cannot think of anything more depressing!)

I do wonder if this is one of the reasons that the Westminster government haven't implemented a 'circuit breaker' style lockdown. Perhaps they are saving that weapon to deploy in late November/early December to try to bring numbers down, so we can unlock just before Christmas. I'm not sure this would work, but I am sure Johnson won't want to be remembered as the PM who cancelled Christmas...
 

VauxhallandI

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It’s all about reducing contacts

So you can either go to work and not go to the pub

Of you can go to the pub, but not go to work, but you wouldn’t be able to go to the pub, as you’d have no wage to pay for a drink
Except it’s exactly the same group of people in both buildings
 

Cowley

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Indeed. I know many people who are not Christians who still enjoy celebrating Christmas. It's something to look forward to during the cold and dark days of November. I think we need that more than ever this year.

I am going to say again what I said on another thread: I understand there is a risk associated with families mixing, especially when elderly relatives are involved, perhaps mixing with student grandchildren just back from Uni. But, this is a risk people should judge for themselves.

I think there are some elderly people who realise this might be their last Christmas, and would prefer to spend it with family and take the risk of Covid, than spend it alone at home and/or have a Zoom Christmas dinner (really, I cannot think of anything more depressing!)

I do wonder if this is one of the reasons that the Westminster government haven't implemented a 'circuit breaker' style lockdown. Perhaps they are saving that weapon to deploy in late November/early December to try to bring numbers down, so we can unlock just before Christmas. I'm not sure this would work, but I am sure Johnson won't want to be remembered as the PM who cancelled Christmas...
I don’t personally think we’ll go down the circuit break route, but if we did then I’d assume they’d want to do it sooner rather than later from the point of view of getting people spending in shops etc on the run up to Christmas.
 

yorksrob

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Exactly, which has resulted in many relapses and deaths/suicides (non Covid) because people have been denied their vital support networks.

CJ

I'm not condoning the current restrictions, but as I understand it, organised support groups such as AA meetings are exempted from the no meeting indoors rules.
 

DelayRepay

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I don’t personally think we’ll go down the circuit break route, but if we did then I’d assume they’d want to do it sooner rather than later from the point of view of getting people spending in shops etc on the run up to Christmas.

I'm not sure, but I'm certain that if we do, it won't be called a Circuit Break, given that's what the opposition are calling for! It would not surprise me to see a period of harsher restrictions for a few weeks to get numbers down. But, to be honest, there is little that they could announce now that would surprise me!

I'm not sure there will be a huge amount of spending in the shops this year. I'll be ordering presents well in advance, online, given the uncertainty about which shops will be open and the unpleasantness of having to queue etc, especially now the weather's turned. For the children I buy for, I think I will be sending cash to their parents, given I may not be able to see them to hand over the gift at Christmas.

One thing they could consider, although it would be a bit controversial, is scrapping the Sunday Trading rules in the run up to Christmas, to try to spread the weekend shoppers out over a longer period. Not ideal for shop staff, I know, but maybe it would create a few extra temp jobs as well.
 

C J Snarzell

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Again the knock on effect to the economy is yet again catastrophic as we draw closer to Christmas.

The cancellation of Christmas Markets in towns and cities is not good - as they generate alot of revenue this time of year. My town usually does a Christmas light switch on sometime in November and I would assume that is cancelled this year, so businesses will suffer.

I have not heard yet about late night shopping which is a seasonal thing - I wouldn't be surprised if this is knocked on the head - again more nails in that coffin lid.

Even works Christmas parties generate alot of revenue at places like entertainment venues & hotels. From what I've heard, some employees are not even bothering with a staff Christmas meal this year, let alone a p**s up.

Theatre's will lose out because of no children's panto's and then there are churches. The village I lived in as a kid has a local church - some of the locals only frequented the church at Christmas and because of the old 'guilt trip' they would put a tidy sum in the collection pot. If that doesn't happen this year, the churches will suffer badly too.

CJ
 

Cowley

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Again the knock on effect to the economy is yet again catastrophic as we draw closer to Christmas.

The cancellation of Christmas Markets in towns and cities is not good - as they generate alot of revenue this time of year. My town usually does a Christmas light switch on sometime in November and I would assume that is cancelled this year, so businesses will suffer.

I have not heard yet about late night shopping which is a seasonal thing - I wouldn't be surprised if this is knocked on the head - again more nails in that coffin lid.

Even works Christmas parties generate alot of revenue at places like entertainment venues & hotels. From what I've heard, some employees are not even bothering with a staff Christmas meal this year, let alone a p**s up.

Theatre's will lose out because of no children's panto's and then there are churches. The village I lived in as a kid has a local church - some of the locals only frequented the church at Christmas and because of the old 'guilt trip' they would put a tidy sum in the collection pot. If that doesn't happen this year, the churches will suffer badly too.

CJ
Unfortunately all of this will continue to skim the niceties of life off the top while eBay/Amazon etc clean up.
 

The Ham

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Again the knock on effect to the economy is yet again catastrophic as we draw closer to Christmas.

The cancellation of Christmas Markets in towns and cities is not good - as they generate alot of revenue this time of year. My town usually does a Christmas light switch on sometime in November and I would assume that is cancelled this year, so businesses will suffer.

I have not heard yet about late night shopping which is a seasonal thing - I wouldn't be surprised if this is knocked on the head - again more nails in that coffin lid.

Even works Christmas parties generate alot of revenue at places like entertainment venues & hotels. From what I've heard, some employees are not even bothering with a staff Christmas meal this year, let alone a p**s up.

Theatre's will lose out because of no children's panto's and then there are churches. The village I lived in as a kid has a local church - some of the locals only frequented the church at Christmas and because of the old 'guilt trip' they would put a tidy sum in the collection pot. If that doesn't happen this year, the churches will suffer badly too.

CJ

I suspect that unless they tidy sum equates to several thousand pounds, for most churches that's not going to be very much.

As 10 people giving an average of £84/month would equal £10,000 in giving, plus chances are an extra £2,500 in gift aid.

As such even a small congregation would probably significantly out give a much larger group who turn up for a few services at Christmas.

Yes it's going to have an impact, but much of it may well be offset by having lower outgoings due to lower energy use.
 

C J Snarzell

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Unfortunately all of this will continue to skim the niceties of life off the top while eBay/Amazon etc clean up.

The tragic thing is that Amazon is becoming an epic beast that is growing bigger & bigger throughout all of this.

I remember first using Amazon myself around 2005/06. They were rivalled by Play.com who I preferred at the time. Whatever became of them?

CJ
 

Carlisle

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From what I've heard, some employees are not even bothering with a staff Christmas meal this year, let alone a p**s up.
Its my experience that wide ranging societal & cultural changes regarding how many of us choose to work, study & socialise nowadays has unfortunately resulted in these types of traditional Christmas works functions declining in numbers for quite some years now, & the pandemic has probably made little difference overall.
 
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kristiang85

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Christimas is going to be a crunch point. If they relax restrictions for Christmas only, then people will twig that "well surely this is not a life or death situtation then, as you can let us all be semi normal for an arbitrary date"?

However, if the government doesn't relax anything, then more people will be driven to despair and opposition of the measures.

Boris must be hoping his beloved vaccine is approved in the next couple of weeks, but that is such a remote possibility.

Also we should not forget the political elephant in the room which could well rear it's ugly head around Christmas time - Brexit. If we leave on a no deal a New Year, and he gets his Christmas COVID strategy wrong, then I doubt Boris will survive as PM for much longer.
 

52290

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Again the knock on effect to the economy is yet again catastrophic as we draw closer to Christmas.

The cancellation of Christmas Markets in towns and cities is not good - as they generate alot of revenue this time of year. My town usually does a Christmas light switch on sometime in November and I would assume that is cancelled this year, so businesses will suffer.

I have not heard yet about late night shopping which is a seasonal thing - I wouldn't be surprised if this is knocked on the head - again more nails in that coffin lid.

Even works Christmas parties generate alot of revenue at places like entertainment venues & hotels. From what I've heard, some employees are not even bothering with a staff Christmas meal this year, let alone a p**s up.

Theatre's will lose out because of no children's panto's and then there are churches. The village I lived in as a kid has a local church - some of the locals only frequented the church at Christmas and because of the old 'guilt trip' they would put a tidy sum in the collection pot. If that doesn't happen this year, the churches will suffer badly too.

CJ
There won't be any church bells pealing out on Christmas Eve for the Midnight Mass this year. "Good!" did I hear someone mutter at the back?
 

Ianigsy

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Its my experience that wide ranging societal & cultural changes regarding how many of us choose to work, study & socialise nowadays has unfortunately resulted in these types of traditional Christmas works functions declining in numbers for quite some years now, & the pandemic has probably made little difference overall.

We've been specifically told by management that people working from home shouldn't be socialising with people still in the office regardless of what the rules might be closer to the time.

I think we found out around the time of the 2008 financial crisis that when it comes to Christmas, people are prepared to push the boat out and hang the consequences. Fines are unlikely to be much of a deterrent when some will quite happily pay £100 to have a near-normal Christmas.
 

bramling

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Christimas is going to be a crunch point. If they relax restrictions for Christmas only, then people will twig that "well surely this is not a life or death situtation then, as you can let us all be semi normal for an arbitrary date"?

That one *shouldn't* be too difficult to square with skilful communications. Unfortunately we've seen no evidence of that thusfar.
 

Huntergreed

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Up in Scotland, John Swinney (Education Secretary) has announced there’s a very real possibility students will be banned from going home at Christmas:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54690114

Students could told not to return home at Christmas if the spread of the coronavirus has not been controlled, the deputy first minister has said.
John Swinney said it was a situation the government wanted to avoid but it was a "realistic possibility".

If this goes ahead, it’ll guarantee a reduction in SNP votes next May, that’s for certain.
 

C J Snarzell

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We've been specifically told by management that people working from home shouldn't be socialising with people still in the office regardless of what the rules might be closer to the time.

I think we found out around the time of the 2008 financial crisis that when it comes to Christmas, people are prepared to push the boat out and hang the consequences. Fines are unlikely to be much of a deterrent when some will quite happily pay £100 to have a near-normal Christmas.

Upon speaking to a few ex-colleagues in the police force, they said they are getting that many calls about Covid breaches & people not self isolating, that many calls are simply not being followed up.

Don't forget - pre-covid, the police were stretched enough with routine jobs like domestics and mental health. The Covid situation is just yet more work for an overwhelmed police force.

I would say - once being in the police myself, that the Nottingham incident involving the 30 students and the £40,000 fine, would probably have been reported as a 'disturbance' with multiple 999 calls being made by the residents in the street. Therefore, the local cops would have had to act on it.

Its fair to say that if you do not follow the rules (to a T) and don't make a drunken numpty of yourself, there is a very slim chance of being fined. All the people who have been slapped with fines seem to be the type of idiots who bring attention on themselves through having parties or displaying nuisance behaviour (normally fueled by alcohol).

Going back to the original topic - if people do decide to have a meal and a few drinks at Christmas it is unlikely they will get fined unless they are very unlucky or very stupid in their behaviour.

CJ
 
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yorksrob

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I'm not keen on the idea of a very strict lockdown just so that we can sit around the telly for a few days watching drivel, followed by another strict lockdown.

I'd far rather an attempt towards a consistent, sustainable suite of rules which ideally allow one to meet with relatives, albeit possibly in a more controlled setting.
 

plugwash

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I remember first using Amazon myself around 2005/06. They were rivalled by Play.com who I preferred at the time. Whatever became of them?
play.com were a company in Jersy, taking advantage of the VAT loophole that existed at the time to sell books DVDs etc at lower prices than mainland retailers could offer directly* despite the obvious overheads of shipping product to jersey and back. They were bought by Japanese company rakuten in 2011.

In 2013 with the closure of the channel islands VAT loophole, they decided to shut down their direct retail buisiness and focus on being a marketplace site.

In 2015 they re-branded the operation as rakuten.co.uk and redirected play.com there (to which it still redirects today)

In 2016 they gave up on the marketplace site and relaunched rakuten.co.uk as a reward points scheme.

Just recently they re-branded the site as "club rakuten" (though still on the website address rakuten.co.uk)

* A number of mainland retailers partnered with companies in the channel islands and/or set up subsideries there to dodge VAT in the same way. For exmaple amazon initially used "amazon jersey" and then at some point moved to a third party retailer "indigo starfish".
 
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bramling

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The vast majority of people comply with the majority of the legislation most of the time, so it's not really a question of enforcement.

I'm not convinced that many people are complying that heavily with mixing rules.

People will comply with masks because they know there's the possibility they will be hassled in one form or another, be it by officialdom or Dick-style shaming. By contrast going into someone else's house is highly unlikely to flag up, even if the neighbours were to snitch there's pretty much zero chance of having the collar felt, unless it's a full-on rave or similar.

IMO there's even less likelihood of compliance over Christmas - apart from the fact that it's Christmas, the longer this all lasts the more compliance drops off anyway. Plus the media is starting to turn, and no doubt a few people will wonder how the Cummings family will spending their Christmas. One wonders if Durham will conveniently be downgraded to tier 1 just in time for Christmas?
 
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VauxhallandI

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Its my experience that wide ranging societal & cultural changes regarding how many of us choose to work, study & socialise nowadays has unfortunately resulted in these types of traditional Christmas works functions declining in numbers for quite some years now, & the pandemic has probably made little difference overall.
Xmas work parties are alive and thriving in the area I work. However I wouldn’t attend one where everyone had to wear a mask. This is not Venice.
 

Baxenden Bank

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I'm not convinced that many people are complying that heavily with mixing rules.

People will comply with masks because they know there's the possibility they will be hassled in one form or another, be it by officialdom or Dick-style shaming. By contrast going into someone else's house is highly unlikely to flag up, even if the neighbours were to snitch there's pretty much zero chance of having the collar felt, unless it's a full-on rave or similar.

IMO there's even less likelihood of compliance over Christmas - apart from the fact that it's Christmas, the longer this all lasts the more compliance drops off anyway. Plus the media is starting to turn, and no doubt a few people will wonder how the Cummings family will spending their Christmas. One wonders if Durham will conveniently be downgraded to tier 1 just in time for Christmas?
The other question is: Where will the Windsor family be spending Christmas? There is usually rather more than the currently permitted 'rule of six' at Sandringham. Even if they stay in separate houses on the estate, will there be an illegal gathering for Christmas dinner? Plenty of police on site to enforce the rules and penalty notice the individuals and the organiser!
 

C J Snarzell

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The other question is: Where will the Windsor family be spending Christmas? There is usually rather more than the currently permitted 'rule of six' at Sandringham. Even if they stay in separate houses on the estate, will there be an illegal gathering for Christmas dinner? Plenty of police on site to enforce the rules and penalty notice the individuals and the organiser!

One thing is for sure - Prince Andrew won't be on the invite list, nor will Harry and what-so-er-face from Suits.

Come to think of it, Phil the Greek will be in complete isolation from everybody given his age and health. He's determine to get a telegram off his wife next year.

CJ
 

birchesgreen

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You can be sure the media (and some members of the public) will be watching the elite like hawks for any rule violations. Whether these would then be reported or not is another question.
 

brad465

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Here's what Government and Opposition are currently saying about Christmas restriction prospects:


"It's too early to say" what Covid rules will be in place by Christmas, the environment secretary has said.

George Eustice warned people "may not be able to get together in the larger groups that they normally would".

Opposition parties have called for coronavirus rules to be the same across all four UK nations this Christmas.

Meanwhile Sage member Sir Mark Walport has said there is "little to feel reassured about", adding "there are still many people that are vulnerable".

Speaking to the BBC's Today programme, the former chief scientific advisor said it's "certainly not unrealistic" to think there could be 25,000 people in hospital with Covid by the end of next month.

He said that "we are better" at treating coronavirus but that the country is "still relatively early in the second wave" and there is a "significant lag" between getting the infection and potentially dying.
Of course they wouldn't have to cancel/greatly restrict Christmas if they come to accept the unsustainability and greater harm of what's currently being done.
 

Class800

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The other question is: Where will the Windsor family be spending Christmas? There is usually rather more than the currently permitted 'rule of six' at Sandringham. Even if they stay in separate houses on the estate, will there be an illegal gathering for Christmas dinner? Plenty of police on site to enforce the rules and penalty notice the individuals and the organiser!
If the Queen is the organiser, this is legal - since part of the monarchy is that the Queen is above the law
 

kristiang85

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If the Queen is the organiser, this is legal - since part of the monarchy is that the Queen is above the law

Hopefully on her Christmas speech she will say "I am organising a nationwide party for all my subjects; party with me from your houses with your families, however many you want. Toot toot!".
 

duncanp

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And in the West Midlands, the Police & Crime Commissioner has said that police will enter people's homes


(OK, this is The Sun, and you have to take everything they say with a pinch of salt)

Well I live in the West Midlands, Mr Jamieson, and I am going to visit my mother on Boxing Day even though we don't live in the same house, and you know what you can do with your threats. Too right there will be some civil unrest if you try and enforce this. <( <( <(


COPS will go into Brits' homes and break up Christmas family gatherings if they break lockdown rules, a police chief has warned.

David Jamieson, the West Midlands police and crime commissioner (PCC), said officers will investigate reports of rule-breaking over the festive season.


And the police and crime commissioner for the West Midlands has warned cops could go into Brits' homes to disrupt Christmas Credit: PA:Press Association
10
David Jamieson says he fears civil unrest as coronavirus restrictions wear on into 2021
The West Midlands are currently under tier two restrictions, meaning people can't visit friends or family from other households indoors.
 
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