London Northwestern Class 730s

Merle Haggard · 22 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
As through services to Euston from past Brum are dead (a very good thing this is, too; they literally destroyed the timetable), they'll just use 350s or 3-car 730s.

Will this be the case even if/when services return after Covid? I ask because I thought that the Walsall - Euston through service was a promise made by M.P.s or something similar, rather than a franchisee's suggestion/franchise commitment, i.e. couldn't be escaped just by saying 'the franchise system is dead'
As an aside, upthread, I really don't know why I wrote about 323s coming to WMT, must have had Northern's fleet cascade on my mind...

It does seem to me that the full impact of the changes that Covid has sped up (I personally think that the changes, e.g., great use of click and collect and WFH were changes that were happening anyway, they just happened in months rather than took years) just seem to be ignored regarding peak capacity requirements, and the resultant level of stock required vs new stock being on order. If (and I don't know, of course, but if) changing work plans mean that the peak demand into Euston can be catered for with 8 rather than 12 car trains, that means in effect that each of the 4 cars saved could be saved entirely (because peak demand drives fleet size). I'm not sure how many units this would save altogether, but the order seems to be to replace the 350/2s and 319s like for like.

However, he pre Covid timetable diagrams did not seem to segregate trunk, outer-suburban and inner-suburban workings (for instance, a Tring inwards at Euston might leave as a down Liverpool) and having separately specified stock for the different services will possibly make diagramming less efficient. It might also result unavoidably in sets remaining in Euston or New Street platforms longer (because they are waiting for the next appropriate, rather than just next, service). So possibly, more units will be required, but other conflicts will arise.

RailUK Forums

Mordac · 22 Nov 2020

The turn up and go service on the Cross City Line was also in the franchise spec and look where that got us.

Bletchleyite · 22 Nov 2020

Merle Haggard said:
the order seems to be to replace the 350/2s and 319s like for like

Except one thing - 350s and 319s are 20m vehicles, 730s are 24m vehicles. So a 5-car 730 set is the same length as a 6-car 350/319 set. Therefore, it's actually a 1/5 capacity increase, roughly.

There's also that a 4-car 350 is barely suitable for anything on the WCML, but a theoretical 6-car would actually be fine for a lot of off-peak services - so single sets will actually be workable on many services.

Jamesrob637 · 23 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Except one thing - 350s and 319s are 20m vehicles, 730s are 24m vehicles. So a 5-car 730 set is the same length as a 6-car 350/319 set. Therefore, it's actually a 1/5 capacity increase, roughly.

There's also that a 4-car 350 is barely suitable for anything on the WCML, but a theoretical 6-car would actually be fine for a lot of off-peak services - so single sets will actually be workable on many services.

Is this based on 2019 passenger numbers which won't be seen/witnessed again until '23/'24?

Bletchleyite · 23 Nov 2020

Jamesrob637 said:
Is this based on 2019 passenger numbers which won't be seen/witnessed again until '23/'24?

Yes, it is indeed. Nobody has a basis to go off at present, even that figure you quote is a guess.

Merle Haggard · 23 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Yes, it is indeed. Nobody has a basis to go off at present, even that figure you quote is a guess.

And, perhaps, even if traffic does return, it might be more evenly balanced - lower 'peaks' and higher 'off-peaks' That's if WFH and, even more importantly, there's no longer the need to be in the office from 08.30 to 17.30, because of a mix of shorter office hours and some WFH, reduces the peak demand with some later work travel.

Although it sounds fine and dandy to be able to adjust supply to demand because there will be trains equal to 4,6,8 etc., as you say, to balance this between inward and outward workings at termini will be an interesting one.

Bletchleyite · 23 Nov 2020

Merle Haggard said:
Although it sounds fine and dandy to be able to adjust supply to demand because there will be trains equal to 4,6,8 etc., as you say, to balance this between inward and outward workings at termini will be an interesting one.

As Euston is going to lose a couple more platforms for HS2 work, I suspect it'll be more of a case of maxing all the train lengths out and adjusting frequency. So whether it's 2x5 or 3x4 won't overly matter.

Bald Rick · 23 Nov 2020

Merle Haggard said:
Will this be the case even if/when services return after Covid? I ask because I thought that the Walsall - Euston through service was a promise made by M.P.s or something similar, rather than a franchisee's suggestion/franchise commitment, i.e. couldn't be escaped just by saying 'the franchise system is dead'

The franchise agreement is the contractual document. An MP promising something has no weight unless it is in the franchise agreement.

The Planner · 23 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
As Euston is going to lose a couple more platforms for HS2 work, I suspect it'll be more of a case of maxing all the train lengths out and adjusting frequency. So whether it's 2x5 or 3x4 won't overly matter.

Not losing any more platforms than what have been taken out already until 2B.

Merle Haggard · 23 Nov 2020

Bald Rick said:
The franchise agreement is the contractual document. An MP promising something has no weight unless it is in the franchise agreement.

Yes, of course.
However, what I was trying to express was the difference between the apparently now-binned franchise agreement new services such as the through Euston-Liverpool one or the through one to the Safari Park near Bewdley - which seemed to be invented by Abellio to make the franchise offer attractive to the DfT - and the franchise agreement through Walsall service, which was apparently introduced as a requirement by the DfT in response public pressure on the local M.P.s. to meet perceived needs. Maybe this is too fine a distinction, but that's how it seemed.
It's also the case that an M.P. who fails to deliver on a promise might lose some votes at the next election, and that might provide motivation to not let it happen.

RealTrains07 · 23 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Except one thing - 350s and 319s are 20m vehicles, 730s are 24m vehicles. So a 5-car 730 set is the same length as a 6-car 350/319 set. Therefore, it's actually a 1/5 capacity increase, roughly.

There's also that a 4-car 350 is barely suitable for anything on the WCML, but a theoretical 6-car would actually be fine for a lot of off-peak services - so single sets will actually be workable on many services.

Apart from the routes which cant contain anything more than a 4 car 350.

If 730 are equivalent to a 6 car 350 then a 10 car 730 is surely going to struggle to fit into quite a few stations between rugby and liverpool? Isn’t it?

Jamesrob637 · 24 Nov 2020

RealTrains07 said:
Apart from the routes which cant contain anything more than a 4 car 350.

If 730 are equivalent to a 6 car 350 then a 10 car 730 is surely going to struggle to fit into quite a few stations between rugby and liverpool? Isn’t it?

Will they use 10 car on Liverpools? That will occupy a whole platform in Lime Street whereas you could put a short-turnaround Northern service in front of a 5-car.

Bletchleyite · 24 Nov 2020

Jamesrob637 said:
Will they use 10 car on Liverpools? That will occupy a whole platform in Lime Street whereas you could put a short-turnaround Northern service in front of a 5-car.

Given that they use 4-car now (give or take the temporarily halved service) no, they won't, they'll use 5.

Jamesrob637 · 24 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Given that they use 4-car now (give or take the temporarily halved service) no, they won't, they'll use 5.

Which is as you say the equivalent of 6 current carriages. Maybe 10s when Liverpool or Everton play a Midlands team such as West Brom/Aston Villa/Wolves.

Bletchleyite · 24 Nov 2020

Jamesrob637 said:
Which is as you say the equivalent of 6 current carriages. Maybe 10s when Liverpool or Everton play a Midlands team such as West Brom/Aston Villa/Wolves.

Possibly, though more likely they'll just cram it full and standing, or swap it for a 3+2 set (the 2+2s are intended for this route among others[1]) for more seats.

[1] Though the random unit generator in operation previously doesn't bode well for it not just being whatever shows up - with considerable reduced demand they really should look at making them all 2+2.

43096 · 24 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Possibly, though more likely they'll just cram it full and standing, or swap it for a 3+2 set (the 2+2s are intended for this route among others[1]) for more seats.

[1] Though the random unit generator in operation previously doesn't bode well for it not just being whatever shows up - with considerable reduced demand they really should look at making them all 2+2.

How long before the random unit generator ends with a Desiro trying to multi with an Aventra?

Bletchleyite · 24 Nov 2020

43096 said:
How long before the random unit generator ends with a Desiro trying to multi with an Aventra?

Good question, though they do seem to be able to keep 319s on the right diagrams.

TT-ONR-NRN · 24 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Good question, though they do seem to be able to keep 319s on the right diagrams.

They’re only four and at peaks only though

Jamesrob637 · 24 Nov 2020

TT-ONR-NRN said:
They’re only four and at peaks only though

Plus just one on a Saturday.

Merle Haggard · 25 Nov 2020

When the order was original announced, the 5 car sets were given as /1 for the Euston - Birmingham services, and /2 for the Euston - Crewe and Birmingham - Liverpool services.
I'm still not clear what the difference between /1 and /2 will be, though, and it doesn't seem that have been stated for certain upthread. Does anyone know for sure?
As an aside, the original document did refer to Birmingham - Liverpool services, suggesting the split in the former through service that was made recently was always planned, not Covid related.

221101 Voyager · 25 Nov 2020

Merle Haggard said:
When the order was original announced, the 5 car sets were given as /1 for the Euston - Birmingham services, and /2 for the Euston - Crewe and Birmingham - Liverpool services.
I'm still not clear what the difference between /1 and /2 will be, though, and it doesn't seem that have been stated for certain upthread. Does anyone know for sure?
As an aside, the original document did refer to Birmingham - Liverpool services, suggesting the split in the former through service that was made recently was always planned, not Covid related.

As far as I know the /1 will be 2+2, whereas the /2 will be 2+3 seating. That was the last I heard although things may change given the current climate. Plus, who really wants 2+3 anyway, awful things! Only any good for a family or a group of people (pre-covid of course).

Bletchleyite · 25 Nov 2020

The difference between them is that /1s have 3+2 seating and /2s 2+2. First Class is a sham in both, having Fainsa Sophia seating in 2+2 layout.

I believe it all pre-dates the mind-numbingly stupid (and thankfully dead) idea of through running.

I'd agree the 3+2 should be dumped, if it's contractually possible at this stage.

samuelmorris · 25 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
The difference between them is that /1s have 3+2 seating and /2s 2+2. First Class is a sham in both, having Fainsa Sophia seating in 2+2 layout.

I believe it all pre-dates the mind-numbingly stupid (and thankfully dead) idea of through running.

So FISA LEANs in standard and Fainsa Sophia in first? lol

Bletchleyite · 25 Nov 2020

samuelmorris said:
So FISA LEANs in standard and Fainsa Sophia in first? lol

I don't think they're going to be FISA LEANs in the 730s, they're going to be something from Kiel as per the Greater Anglia units. Still likely to be superior to the Sophia, though. Continues a long and stupid tradition of First Class being inferior to Standard in the 350s.

221101 Voyager · 25 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I don't think they're going to be FISA LEANs in the 730s, they're going to be something from Kiel as per the Greater Anglia units. Still likely to be superior to the Sophia, though. Continues a long and stupid tradition of First Class being inferior to Standard in the 350s.

Long as the seat is better than a sophia, everyones happy!

If they use the seats from the 745/755s that'd be great though. Can't comment on 720 seats as I've never tried them, but they look alright.

Bletchleyite · 25 Nov 2020

Pretty sure it's the Vario Relax 3000 in both 3+2 and 2+2, just with armrests on the latter:

Regional transport - Franz Kiel GmbH - Kiel Sitze

Regional transport When it comes to regional transport, which often involves longer journeys and commutes, passengers want to be able to sit comfortably and ergonomically – and they also appreciate attractive design. Our customers expect the seats to come with versatile variants and features for...

kiel-seating.com

221101 Voyager · 25 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Pretty sure it's the Vario Relax 3000 in both 3+2 and 2+2, just with armrests on the latter:

Regional transport - Franz Kiel GmbH - Kiel Sitze

Regional transport When it comes to regional transport, which often involves longer journeys and commutes, passengers want to be able to sit comfortably and ergonomically – and they also appreciate attractive design. Our customers expect the seats to come with versatile variants and features for...

kiel-seating.com

Same type as the GA 720's they look alright, having 5 or 10 years wear on the WCML will really test how good these trains and it's seats are!

Bletchleyite · 25 Nov 2020

221101 Voyager said:
Same type as the GA 720's they look alright, having 5 or 10 years wear on the WCML will really test how good these trains and it's seats are!

It looks fairly similar to the Grammer E3000 (what is it about 3000?) Desiro seat, and is German made, so I guess it'll be decent.

221101 Voyager · 25 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It looks fairly similar to the Grammer E3000 (what is it about 3000?) Desiro seat, and is German made, so I guess it'll be decent.

Indeed it does. Let's hope it's good, otherwise the backlash will be a hot topic on the forums!

Merle Haggard · 25 Nov 2020

Bletchleyite said:
The difference between them is that /1s have 3+2 seating and /2s 2+2. First Class is a sham in both, having Fainsa Sophia seating in 2+2 layout.

I believe it all pre-dates the mind-numbingly stupid (and thankfully dead) idea of through running.

I'd agree the 3+2 should be dumped, if it's contractually possible at this stage.

That seemed to be the suggestion further up thread, but it doesn't make sense to me*.
So the 760/1s, with 3+2 seating, will be used on the Euston -Birmingham service fast services. With the disposal of the 350/2s, all the 350s remaining will have 2+2 seating, and one can deduce that they will be used on the other services.
And that means that longer distance passengers, Euston - Birmingham, will have 3+2 seating, and the Milton Keynes and Tring to Euston ones, 2+2.
At present, the New St - Walsall and Coventry/International - Wolverhampton are also 350s, so those services, too, if they remain 350 will be 2+2.

*Not unusual; railway management seems to live on some parallel planet with curious logic.

London Northwestern Class 730s

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