Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

BluePenguin · 18 Jan 2021

Wyrleybart said:
As a totally unknowledgeable person on that part of the world, have 707s been on the Southeastern routes previously or has gauging been carried out for them ? Or maybe they will operate over routes currently used by 700s with presumably identical profiles ?

P790TP said:
707s have never been on Southeastern routes, the service was specifically cleared to make the journey to Ashford, gauging will still need to take place on the rest of the network before they go into service. 700s are similar but not identical.

That is technically not correct. They run on the North Kent line and Chatham Main Line and regularly can be seen stationary at Rainham, Sevenoaks and Gravesend.

There are several YouTube videos of Thameslink 700s running between Sevenoaks and Orpington on days of engineering works between Bat & Ball and Swanley.

The Rainham - Luton service spends the majority of journey to Luton on its usual metro route to London Bridge in Southeastern land. On days of engineering work this service run via Bexleyheath and Lewisham.

Have I missed something?

RailUK Forums

MotCO · 18 Jan 2021

Domh245 said:
It doesn't. The caption is:

"Artist's impression - final train livery may change"

It does. The final sentence of the narrative is “I’m very much looking forward to the future when we will see 707s running in the splendid blue livery of Southeastern”.

ComUtoR · 18 Jan 2021

BluePenguin said:
Have I missed something?

707s and 700s are not the same so @P790TP is almost correct in what they say. It may be worth starting a different thread as to the way trains are guaged and what the requirements are.

BluePenguin · 18 Jan 2021

ComUtoR said:
707s and 700s are not the same so @P790TP is almost correct in what they say. It may be worth starting a different thread as to the way trains are guaged and what the requirements are.

Ahh right, thanks for that. Could you Please elaborate briefly on how P790TP is also almost not correct? To the average layman the 707s and 700s come across as so simular in any ways.

I curious to understand the differences more and why they are treated differently. If something long and complicated to explain and understand, I could stand a new thread if needed.

ComUtoR · 18 Jan 2021

They are right because of them being a different unit and 707s being new to the network. Guaging is alltogether very different. I know the basics but the technical stuff I'd leave to others. For guaging purposes they are treated as different trains. When 700s first arrived all the route clearance was sorted prior to their arrival. Then they get a document saying where they are cleared for and then other essential stuff needs to happen before they hit passenger service. 707s would have gone through the same process. That part I'm not clued up on but there will be many experts on this forum who could clarify how units get route clearance. Even 700's aren't fully cleared across Southeastern and still have a few route issues.

I haven't checked the Sectional Appendix for a while but that document also lists route clearance.

Alteran Ancient · 18 Jan 2021

BluePenguin said:
Ahh right, thanks for that. Could you Please elaborate briefly on how P790TP is also almost not correct? To the average layman the 707s and 700s come across as so simular in any ways.

I curious to understand the differences more and why they are treated differently. If something long and complicated to explain and understand, I could stand a new thread if needed.

As someone who is only partially familiar with the insides, I know that the traction packages are a little less "powerful" on the 707s as only the leading carriages are motored, whereas with the 700s half of the carriages are motored. I do also remember that SWR had the 707s specc'd such that the buttons to release the doors on the driver's dashes are "protected" with flaps that have to be lifted in order to press the buttons - presumably to prevent "accidental" activations as those services were to be principally operated by a guard, whereas this feature would be incredibly annoying for SE's operations, where the driver always opens and if you're on a mainline service, the guard may occasionally be responsible for closing at unstaffed stations. I expect removing the flaps will be a trivial task though.

Oh, and of course, the obvious one. No toilets! Unless these get retro-fitted.

If the 707s do get assigned some outer-suburban work, I could picture them doing the Tunbridge Wells terminators as that trip is just short of an hour, but for now, I'd say the journey from Victoria to Gillingham is just a little bit out of their reach - that trip is 66 minutes end-to-end, so just over 5 minutes too long to run without having toilets fitted.

I'm genuinely curious to see what they have planned for these units.

ComUtoR · 18 Jan 2021

Alteran Ancient said:
As someone who is only partially familiar with the insides, I know that the traction packages are a little less "powerful" on the 707s as only the leading carriages are motored,

Not just that either. I believe that they had a power restriction on SWR. Someone described it to me as having it "chipped" Maybe SE could remove the restriction. 700s also have pantographs and AC equipment so they are probably a fair bit heavier.

Doomotron · 18 Jan 2021

I definitely hope they don't end up onto a Victoria - Dover fast!

BluePenguin · 19 Jan 2021

Doomotron said:
I definitely hope they don't end up onto a Victoria - Dover fast!

Haha well there is certainly no guarantee of that seeing as though Networkers regularly are used! Sitting on one from Dover to Canterbury is long enough in my book. I wouldn't want to be stuck one for much further than that. Since when did Southeastern bring back the Victoria fasts anyway? Maybe one day :lol:

Juniper Driver · 19 Jan 2021

ComUtoR said:
Not just that either. I believe that they had a power restriction on SWR. Someone described it to me as having it "chipped" Maybe SE could remove the restriction. 700s also have pantographs and AC equipment so they are probably a fair bit heavier.

That's pretty strange. They were the fastest accelerating units I have ever driven....beat every other unit from a standing start and were used on the Shepperton Road because of the tight turnarounds and the fact that other classes of units couldn't keep to time. The doors are also faster closing as well… Which may be another factor.

The buttons on the drivers' desk haven't got flaps on them (that's one thing I do know since I've been driving them for over three years)... I'm not even sure if the desk buttons work with the guards key on as I have never tried on prep.I usually use the buttons on the panel behind during prep to make sure the doors work properly.…

Great trains to drive. Hope I get another go.

(edited for mistake don't/do.)

Domh245 · 19 Jan 2021

AIUI The 707s have a lower power:weight ratio than the 700s (40% motored vs 50% motored), and aren't able to make full use of their traction packages because of the limitations of the stabiliser rail, but that doesn't mean they are slouches!

Doomotron · 19 Jan 2021

BluePenguin said:
Haha well there is certainly no guarantee of that seeing as though Networkers regularly are used! Sitting on one from Dover to Canterbury is long enough in my book. I wouldn't want to be stuck one for much further than that. Since when did Southeastern bring back the Victoria fasts anyway? Maybe one day

Well, they go non-stop between Canterbury and Dover but since that's all I use the Victoria service for, I wouldn't know. Hopefully Southeastern won't mistakenly swap a 465 for a 707 - just look at what happened when Southern sent a 313 to Southampton. :lol:

As long as they keep them were they belong, I'm sure passengers will like them a lot more than the Networkers, despite the seats.

brad465 · 20 Jan 2021

Mikey C said:
The plan might be for them to be painted blue, but it'll hardly be a pressing priority! After all they've made no effort to paint their Networkers or 376s blue, not even the 465/9s

They did paint the Networkers up to about half blue, although originally they only did the doors and the undercarriage, not the blue stripe on the carriage. But yes the 376s have been effectively untouched since they were introduced, both inside and outside.

BluePenguin said:
Haha well there is certainly no guarantee of that seeing as though Networkers regularly are used! Sitting on one from Dover to Canterbury is long enough in my book. I wouldn't want to be stuck one for much further than that. Since when did Southeastern bring back the Victoria fasts anyway? Maybe one day

I doubt 707s will end up on that service for two reasons: firstly the lack of toilets will prevent it, and secondly that service is planned for withdrawal from May 2022 (see related thread), so it's possible the service will have ceased by the time 707s are fully in service, and definitely by the time they might hypothetically be fitted with toilets.

Mikey C · 20 Jan 2021

brad465 said:
They did paint the Networkers up to about half blue, although originally they only did the doors and the undercarriage, not the blue stripe on the carriage. But yes the 376s have been effectively untouched since they were introduced, both inside and outside.

I doubt 707s will end up on that service for two reasons: firstly the lack of toilets will prevent it, and secondly that service is planned for withdrawal from May 2022 (see related thread), so it's possible the service will have ceased by the time 707s are fully in service, and definitely by the time they might hypothetically be fitted with toilets.

Other than the doors, the Networker livery doesn't bear any resemblance to the "proper" Southeastern livery though. The dark blue skirt/stripe is more a previous livery once tried on the 375s

Juniper Driver · 20 Jan 2021

So how many have gone from SWR? I heard 6... Is this true?

ComUtoR · 20 Jan 2021

Juniper Driver said:
So how many have gone from SWR? I heard 6... Is this true?

2x 10 Cars 003/004 on the first run. Nobody has posted the unit numbers for the second run but it did come over.

Goldfish62 · 20 Jan 2021

ComUtoR said:
2x 10 Cars 003/004 on the first run. Nobody has posted the unit numbers for the second run but it did come over.

From memory it was, I think, 005 and 006 in the photos I've seen of the transfer.

swt_passenger · 20 Jan 2021

Juniper Driver said:
So how many have gone from SWR? I heard 6... Is this true?

Post #318 gave proposed dates for 6 more units, it was just after the first 2 had already gone, but only 1 pair of those 3 pairs should have happened, the next two pairs of moves are not until April and July respectively...

DA1 · 20 Jan 2021

Anyone know if more testing has taken place? Couple of Q moves to and from Slade Green and Grove Park last night via bexleyheath line?

4-SUB 4732 · 20 Jan 2021

DA1 said:
Anyone know if more testing has taken place? Couple of Q moves to and from Slade Green and Grove Park last night via bexleyheath line?

Yes I believe that was a pair going back from Sludge Island.

DorkingMain · 20 Jan 2021

Goldfish62 said:
From memory it was, I think, 005 and 006 in the photos I've seen of the transfer.

That was the second transfer.

003 + 004 went one evening, 005 + 006 went about a week later.

Juniper Driver · 21 Jan 2021

Ah, thanks. I've got 707 on Sheppy tomorrow. There must be a couple holed up somewhere as we have more 455's on Sheppy and Windsor.

Edited tomorrow not today.

Goldfish62 · 21 Jan 2021

DorkingMain said:
That was the second transfer.

003 + 004 went one evening, 005 + 006 went about a week later.

I was taking about the second transfer.

DorkingMain · 21 Jan 2021

Juniper Driver said:
Ah, thanks. I've got 707 on Sheppy today.There must be a couple holed up somewhere as we have more 455's on Sheppy and Windsor.

Heard from my friend at SWR who keeps me up to date with these things that there's a load of stuff sitting in various depots awaiting maintenance which they haven't got the staff for.

Goldfish62 said:
I was taking about the second transfer.

There was some confusion here about whether there had been one or two transfers so I was clarifying.

Class 466 · 21 Jan 2021

Mikey C said:
Other than the doors, the Networker livery doesn't bear any resemblance to the "proper" Southeastern livery though. The dark blue skirt/stripe is more a previous livery once tried on the 375s

That's because it was the proper livery until the 375 refresh came about. Hence why 375609 was put into it when it had corrosion work done a few years back. 465s won't be put into blue as they've already been treated - 376s (if done) would be in all over blue as would 707s probably. There's no such thing as a 'Metro' livery (I've seen it suggested elsewhere).

4-SUB 4732 said:
Yes I believe that was a pair going back from Sludge Island.

707005 worked it Mon/Tue then 707006 worked it Tue/Wed

Goldfish62 · 21 Jan 2021

Class 466 said:
That's because it was the proper livery until the 375 refresh came about. Hence why 375609 was put into it when it had corrosion work done a few years back. 465s won't be put into blue as they've already been treated - 376s (if done) would be in all over blue as would 707s probably. There's no such thing as a 'Metro' livery (I've seen it suggested elsewhere).

Agreed, but the message seems difficult to get through.

Juniper Driver · 21 Jan 2021

DorkingMain said:
Heard from my friend at SWR who keeps me up to date with these things that there's a load of stuff sitting in various depots awaiting maintenance which they haven't got the staff for.

There was some confusion here about whether there had been one or two transfers so I was clarifying.

That makes sense... I saw 456017 the other day with the isolation flaps pulled up in the cabs and standing outside the maintenance shed... Saw a 455 round the back same sort of thing today.... Wanted to sniff around for 707's to see if any had been unbranded but couldn't see any...

Matthew Taylor · 23 Jan 2021

Some more 707 runs out and about today

ComUtoR · 23 Jan 2021

I assume it's the 003 and 004 units working the runs today ? Anyone know which unit ran in which direction ?

Matthew Taylor · 23 Jan 2021

ComUtoR said:
I assume it's the 003 and 004 units working the runs today ? Anyone know which unit ran in which direction ?

003 on the London end and 004 on the country

Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

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