Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

SuperNova · 25 Jan 2021

BrianW said:
Looking at the National Rail Timetable for tomorrow, btween 9 and 10am, for trains Picc to Vic:
9.01 taking 32 mins with 2 changes- Ox Rd and Salford Central
9.30 29 mins, changing once- at Salford Central
9.31 22 mins with no change
9.57 14 mins with no change
All those will be longer of course depending on time changing platforms and waiting after arrival at Piccadilly; hardly encouraging.

There's only one direct train and that's the 9.57.

Having gone round the chord numerous times, if you get a clear run it's 8-10 minutes. As I said earlier on this thread, quite a lot of people do make that journey - especially those who work on the calder valley route but are based around Pic/Oxford Road.

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VauxhallNova · 25 Jan 2021

The longer distance trains generally have much higher lateness but higher yield per passenger.

peters · 25 Jan 2021

jfollows said:
I essentially agree with peters; I learned a good walking route between Piccadilly and Victoria in 1973 and I still choose to walk today.

I wasn't really suggesting people should walk. I was suggesting in most cases it's not necessary to get between Piccadilly and Victoria and if you're trying to get from Piccadilly to Salford Central then it's just as quick to walk as to mess about with 2 changes.

If you do want to walk from Piccadilly to Victoria it's easy to follow the Metrolink for most of the way, the important thing is not to follow it between Piccadilly Gardens and Piccadilly, so you end up at the platform level not below the station at Metrolink level.

Greybeard33 · 25 Jan 2021

peters said:
If you do want to walk from Piccadilly to Victoria it's easy to follow the Metrolink for most of the way, the important thing is not to follow it between Piccadilly Gardens and Piccadilly, so you end up at the platform level not below the station at Metrolink level.

If you follow the tram tracks along Aytoun Street from Piccadilly Gardens, a red fingerpost points you up a pedestrian walkway that leads straight to the main station entrance, via a rather spectacular footbridge over Piccadilly (the road).

Bletchleyite · 25 Jan 2021

Greybeard33 said:
If you follow the tram tracks along Aytoun Street from Piccadilly Gardens, a red fingerpost points you up a pedestrian walkway that leads straight to the main station entrance, via a rather spectacular footbridge over Piccadilly (the road).

And to be fair if you do end up at Metrolink level it's not hard to walk back up, there is an entrance there.

geoffk · 25 Jan 2021

peters said:
I wasn't really suggesting people should walk. I was suggesting in most cases it's not necessary to get between Piccadilly and Victoria and if you're trying to get from Piccadilly to Salford Central then it's just as quick to walk as to mess about with 2 changes.

If you do want to walk from Piccadilly to Victoria it's easy to follow the Metrolink for most of the way, the important thing is not to follow it between Piccadilly Gardens and Piccadilly, so you end up at the platform level not below the station at Metrolink level.

I did the walk often and used to cut through a car park behind Debenham's, but it's been built on now. Increasing the Metrolink frequency between Picc and Vic to every 6 minutes would help but there appear to be no plans for this.

Llandudno · 25 Jan 2021

Greybeard33 said:
IMO the pedestrian route between Victoria and Piccadilly is adequately signed, and there are street maps at strategic locations in the city centre.

Most passengers have a smartphone app that can give walking directions. Failing all that you can just follow the tram tracks!

Someone might pinch your smartphone or pick your pocket whilst following the map on your phone.

Oh, and make sure you don’t get run over by a tram!

or a bus or taxi when crossing Ducie Street!

Bletchleyite · 25 Jan 2021

Llandudno said:
Someone might pinch your smartphone or pick your pocket whilst following the map on your phone.

It could happen, but Manchester isn't that dodgy so odds on they won't.

Llandudno · 25 Jan 2021

Bletchleyite said:
It could happen, but Manchester isn't that dodgy so odds on they won't.

I know it’s not that dodgy, but there is an edgy feel to walking along Piccadilly.

My wife definitely feels on edge walking there!

Greybeard33 · 25 Jan 2021

Llandudno said:
Someone might pinch your smartphone or pick your pocket whilst following the map on your phone.

Oh, and make sure you don’t get run over by a tram!

or a bus or taxi when crossing Ducie Street!

Llandudno said:
I know it’s not that dodgy, but there is an edgy feel to walking along Piccadilly.

My wife definitely feels on edge walking there!

If you follow the Aytoun Street route I suggested above, you don't need to walk along Piccadilly, nor cross Ducie Street!

peters · 25 Jan 2021

Llandudno said:
Someone might pinch your smartphone or pick your pocket whilst following the map on your phone.

Oh, and make sure you don’t get run over by a tram!

or a bus or taxi when crossing Ducie Street!

Bletchleyite said:
It could happen, but Manchester isn't that dodgy so odds on they won't.

It used to be the case that you had a higher chance being a victim of crime on the streets of Chester, than the streets of Manchester. That might still be the case but I've not seen any recent statistics. If an area feels safe people may take fewer precautions. Once when I was waiting to cross a pelican crossing in Knutsford, another person waiting was a girl with her purse partly sticking out of her open handbag. No-one tried to steal it from her but in a big city if you're careless enough to do something like that that purse will be gone in no time.

I was going to mention one of the seedy types who performed regularly on the streets of Piccadilly, a man who looks a bit like Bez but is old enough to his dad but just trying to find a mention of him via Google I found an article saying he died after being hit by a tram!

BBC News said:
A popular street musician has died a week after he was struck by a tram in Manchester city centre.
Ray Boddington, 77, who performed as part of the Piccadilly Rats group, died in hospital in the early hours of Thursday.

Tram crash musician Ray Boddington dies in hospital

Popular street performer Ray Boddington was struck by a Metrolink tram in Manchester city centre.

www.bbc.co.uk

Llandudno · 25 Jan 2021

Greybeard33 said:
If you follow the Aytoun Street route I suggested above, you don't need to walk along Piccadilly, nor cross Ducie Street!

I guess it misses the junction at Ducie Street, but using the footbridge still means passing through the ‘bus station’ at Piccadilly Gardens, still plenty of undesirable looking people hanging around all the take away food outlets though!

I guess the issue really is that when you are from a small town, boarding at a quietish country station it is quite a culture shock when you first get off the train at Piccadilly, same can be said for city centre stations in Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham etc...

Ianno87 · 25 Jan 2021

Llandudno said:
I guess it misses the junction at Ducie Street, but using the footbridge still means passing through the ‘bus station’ at Piccadilly Gardens, still plenty of undesirable looking people hanging around all the take away food outlets though!

I guess the issue really is that when you are from a small town, boarding at a quietish country station it is quite a culture shock when you first get off the train at Piccadilly, same can be said for city centre stations in Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham etc...

Irrespective of whether you take this route or that route, the distance and lack of a "natural" or "obvious" route is a barrier to people choosing to travel (which may not be apparent to people on this forum who are less likely to be deterred by such things or have them consciously influence their choice to travel).

There's a reason why schemes to aid cross-Manchester connections have been developed over the years - PiccVic, Metrolink, Centerline/Metroshuttle, Windsor Link, Ordsall Chord, etc.

Greybeard33 · 25 Jan 2021

Llandudno said:
I guess it misses the junction at Ducie Street, but using the footbridge still means passing through the ‘bus station’ at Piccadilly Gardens, still plenty of undesirable looking people hanging around all the take away food outlets though!

I guess the issue really is that when you are from a small town, boarding at a quietish country station it is quite a culture shock when you first get off the train at Piccadilly, same can be said for city centre stations in Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham etc...

My physique is far from imposing, but I have walked through Manchester city centre many times, including late evening and amongst inebriated football crowds. I have never been threatened nor witnessed any criminal behaviour.

Llandudno · 25 Jan 2021

Greybeard33 said:
My physique is far from imposing, but I have walked through Manchester city centre many times, including late evening and amongst inebriated football crowds. I have never been threatened nor witnessed any criminal behaviour.

Really!

Last time I walked along Piccadilly Gardens (it was pre lockdown) around lunchtime on a Saturday there was a brawl between 5-6 drunks/druggies near the Travelodge front door!

I agree if you keep your head down and don’t look at some of the undesirables in the eye you are normally ok!

faltskog36abba · 25 Jan 2021

Greybeard33 said:
My physique is far from imposing, but I have walked through Manchester city centre many times, including late evening and amongst inebriated football crowds. I have never been threatened nor witnessed any criminal behaviour.

I am 5 foot 5 nearly 50 and lived in Manchester all my life. I was knocked out outside Victoria station, Attacked in Piccadilly Gardens, Mugged in Hulme and Rusholme, And an Attempted mugging in the Gay village and St Georges and Oxford road. These incidents all happened in my 20/30s and four of them were in Daylight.

geoffk said:
I did the walk often and used to cut through a car park behind Debenham's, but it's been built on now. Increasing the Metrolink frequency between Picc and Vic to every 6 minutes would help but there appear to be no plans for this.

Walk 15 Minutes- Down Piccadilly approach, Turn right Newton street, Turn left along church street until the end, Turn right on High street and follow tram lines to Victoria.

Killingworth · 25 Jan 2021

For a Piccadilly-Victoria connection I'd walk without concerns - unless raining in which case I'd go for Metrolink. I once tried the free bus and wondered if I'd ever get there!

However I'm usually travelling light. Those returning from the airport with massive bags would be best advised to wait for a connecting train or take a taxi.

py_megapixel · 25 Jan 2021

Killingworth said:
For a Piccadilly-Victoria connection I'd walk without concerns - unless raining in which case I'd go for Metrolink. I once tried the free bus and wondered if I'd ever get there!

However I'm usually travelling light. Those returning from the airport with massive bags would be best advised to wait for a connecting train or take a taxi.

As far as I'm aware, there aren't any Pic-Vic trains which don't come through from the airport anyway, and of course if you wait at the airport you get to avoid the scrum on the through platforms at Picc. Depending on which direction you intend to head in, it might also be a better option to bypass the city centre altogether, and opt instead for a bus to Stockport and a train onwards from there.

That said, there are plenty of other reasons to need to make that connection with heavy bags. For me, it would be the tram, changing at St Peter's Square if needed, unless there was a train due within the next few minutes. The train is faster but the tram is more frequent, has level boarding (good if you have a suitcase) and is very spacious. I also just enjoy taking the tram through the city centre.

The metroshuttle bus does take a circuitous route and of course is subject to getting stuck in traffic - I like the concept, and it's OK if you have spare time, but I certainly wouldn't advise relying on it to make a connection!

Andyh82 · 25 Jan 2021

py_megapixel said:
As far as I'm aware, there aren't any Pic-Vic trains which don't come through from the airport anyway, and of course if you wait at the airport you get to avoid the scrum on the through platforms at Picc. Depending on which direction you intend to head in, it might also be a better option to bypass the city centre altogether, and opt instead for a bus to Stockport and a train onwards from there.

There aren’t any Airport trams at Piccadilly? They run Airport to Victoria

py_megapixel · 25 Jan 2021

Andyh82 said:
There aren’t any Airport trams at Piccadilly? They run Airport to Victoria

In that paragraph I was talking about trains (i.e. TPE and Northern services) not trams.

Gareth · 26 Jan 2021

faltskog36abba said:
I am 5 foot 5 nearly 50 and lived in Manchester all my life. I was knocked out outside Victoria station, Attacked in Piccadilly Gardens, Mugged in Hulme and Rusholme, And an Attempted mugging in the Gay village and St Georges and Oxford road. These incidents all happened in my 20/30s and four of them were in Daylight.

Because you were a young man and not a very tall one. An ideal target. Young men are by far the likely demographic to be attacked in such a way. I was jumped once by three lads for absolutely no reason but seemingly for the thrill of it and the police found it hard to disguise their lack of interest in the matter.

Even so, there's always a risk of these things in any town or city and you ride your luck. I've walked down Piccadilly several times and not come close to any such incident.

faltskog36abba · 26 Jan 2021

Gareth said:
Because you were a young man and not a very tall one. An ideal target. Young men are by far the likely demographic to be attacked in such a way. I was jumped once by three lads for absolutely no reason but seemingly for the thrill of it and the police found it hard to disguise their lack of interest in the matter.

Even so, there's always a risk of these things in any town or city and you ride your luck. I've walked down Piccadilly several times and not come close to any such incident.

The Police Could not have been more Helpful regarding being attacked outside Victoria Station. They put me in the Police Van upfront and drove me around Manchester-To see if I could see the two attackers, When I could not spot them-They drove me home three miles away.

Rhydgaled · 28 Jan 2021

TheSel said:
Option 3, defined as:

separating train movements as far as possible to minimise the amount of delay one train may cause on another

Does it though? From a quick look at the map (and a slightly less quick look at Google Earth) it seems to me that there are three 'entry points' to the west of Manchester and five 'exits' to the east.

Entry

Salford Crescent
Eccles (Chat Moss route)
Trafford Park (Warrington Central route)

Exit

East Didsbury (Airport/Styal route)
Stockport (multiple routes)
Ashburys (Glossop and Marple routes)
Ashton-under-Lyne (TransPennine route)
Rochdale (Todmorden route)

Still looking at the map (and Google Earth), if one wants to seperate trains arriving through Salford Crescent from all other services, you can do that by going through platforms 5 and 6 at Manchester Victoria and heading up to Rochdale/Todmorden. Sending trains from Salford Crescent to Ashton-under-Lyne (via Manchester Victoria) means interfacing with any trains from the Eccles direction that are bound for Man. Vic. and beyond. Finally, sending Salford Crescent trains to any of the other three 'exit points' mixes them through Castlefield, yet option C has 4tph (2x Blackpool, 1x Cumbria, 1x Scotland), plus a peak Southport, that I understand would do exactly that. Route pairings to avoid all interfaces would be as follows:

All trains from Salford Crescent would proceed towards Rochdale through Man. Vic. platforms 5 and 6 as described above
All trains from Eccles would proceed towards Ashton-under-Lyne through Man. Vic. platforms 3 and 4
All trains from Trafford Park would proceed towards East Didsbury through Castlefield
All trains towards Stockport would depart from high numbered platforms (except 13 and 14) at Manchester Piccadilly
All trains towards Ashburys would depart from low numbered platforms at Manchester Piccadilly

Option C doesn't do that so I don't think it is separating train movements to the fullest extent possible. It seems to me that Salford Crescent - Deansgate is the worst conflict of the lot (given that it is crossing the Eccles-Victoria route and not just merging in as the other conflicts are) and yet option C retains such moves. Am I missing something?

Obviously completely seperating services is unecessary and could have a massive impact on availablity of direct services (plus at least three sections of track in central Manchester would have no trains using them, and neither would Man. Vic platforms 1 and 2), so a compromise needs to be found.

Spandau · 28 Jan 2021

Rhydgaled said:
Does it though? From a quick look at the map (and a slightly less quick look at Google Earth) it seems to me that there are three 'entry points' to the west of Manchester and five 'exits' to the east.

Entry

Salford Crescent

Eccles (Chat Moss route)

Trafford Park (Warrington Central route)

Exit

East Didsbury (Airport/Styal route)

Stockport (multiple routes)

Ashburys (Glossop and Marple routes)

Ashton-under-Lyne (TransPennine route)

Rochdale (Todmorden route)

Still looking at the map (and Google Earth), if one wants to seperate trains arriving through Salford Crescent from all other services, you can do that by going through platforms 5 and 6 at Manchester Victoria and heading up to Rochdale/Todmorden. Sending trains from Salford Crescent to Ashton-under-Lyne (via Manchester Victoria) means interfacing with any trains from the Eccles direction that are bound for Man. Vic. and beyond. Finally, sending Salford Crescent trains to any of the other three 'exit points' mixes them through Castlefield, yet option C has 4tph (2x Blackpool, 1x Cumbria, 1x Scotland), plus a peak Southport, that I understand would do exactly that. Route pairings to avoid all interfaces would be as follows:

All trains from Salford Crescent would proceed towards Rochdale through Man. Vic. platforms 5 and 6 as described above

All trains from Eccles would proceed towards Ashton-under-Lyne through Man. Vic. platforms 3 and 4

All trains from Trafford Park would proceed towards East Didsbury through Castlefield

All trains towards Stockport would depart from high numbered platforms (except 13 and 14) at Manchester Piccadilly

All trains towards Ashburys would depart from low numbered platforms at Manchester Piccadilly

Option C doesn't do that so I don't think it is separating train movements to the fullest extent possible. It seems to me that Salford Crescent - Deansgate is the worst conflict of the lot (given that it is crossing the Eccles-Victoria route and not just merging in as the other conflicts are) and yet option C retains such moves. Am I missing something?

Obviously completely seperating services is unecessary and could have a massive impact on availablity of direct services (plus at least three sections of track in central Manchester would have no trains using them, and neither would Man. Vic platforms 1 and 2), so a compromise needs to be found.

Isn’t the missing piece the fact that Salford Crescent is a rather important interchange?

Rhydgaled · 28 Jan 2021

Spandau said:
Isn’t the missing piece the fact that Salford Crescent is a rather important interchange?

Between which routes? I'm not familar with the service patterns on that side of Manchester, I can't remember ever using Salford Crescent during the year I lived in Sale (but must have passed through once or twice on trains to Preston/Blackpool).

Ianno87 · 28 Jan 2021

Rhydgaled said:
Between which routes? I'm not familar with the service patterns on that side of Manchester, I can't remember ever using Salford Crescent during the year I lived in Sale (but must have passed through once or twice on trains to Preston/Blackpool).

Atherton to get to/from Piccadilly.

Routes via Bolton to get to Piccadilly if you're on a Victoria train (e.g. from Blackburn), or to Victoria if you're on a Piccadilly train (e.g. from Preston)

30907 · 28 Jan 2021

Rhydgaled said:
Between which routes? I'm not familar with the service patterns on that side of Manchester, I can't remember ever using Salford Crescent during the year I lived in Sale (but must have passed through once or twice on trains to Preston/Blackpool).

Bolton (ie just about the whole of Lancs plus Cumbria and Scotland) to Piccadilly and Airport is probably the biggest flow of the lot.
Short of running everything from Preston via Chat Moss I can't see how you can sensibly alter that. That's an option, I suppose - but Bolton itself is reasonably important....

Ianno87 · 28 Jan 2021

30907 said:
Bolton (ie just about the whole of Lancs plus Cumbria and Scotland) to Piccadilly and Airport is probably the biggest flow of the lot.
Short of running everything from Preston via Chat Moss I can't see how you can sensibly alter that. That's an option, I suppose - but Bolton itself is reasonably important....

Bolton, certainly a few years ago, was the second largest flow to/from Manchester after London.

Rhydgaled · 29 Jan 2021

Ianno87 said:
Atherton to get to/from Piccadilly.

Routes via Bolton to get to Piccadilly if you're on a Victoria train (e.g. from Blackburn), or to Victoria if you're on a Piccadilly train (e.g. from Preston)

Ah, now I see; everything from Atherton already goes to Victoria, so if you want Piccadilly you need to change at Salford Crescent or double-back from Victoria on an Ordsall Chord service (or walk, or use Metrolink).

30907 said:
Bolton (ie just about the whole of Lancs plus Cumbria and Scotland) to Piccadilly and Airport is probably the biggest flow of the lot.
Short of running everything from Preston via Chat Moss I can't see how you can sensibly alter that. That's an option, I suppose - but Bolton itself is reasonably important....

So the biggest conflict (or am I wrong to think that*) is also the most important flow? That makes untangling the knot a political mess.

* I'm assuming that cutting Bolton-Piccadilly from 4tph to 2tph and providing 2tph extra from Victoria to Piccadilly via the Ordsall Chord instead would be an improvement for reliability/punctuality/resiliance, but I could be wrong. Ultimately the frequency of trains through Castlefield remains the same, but Chat Moss to Victoria services are not as impeeded. Bolton-Piccadilly passengers would however need to change at Victoria.

Ianno87 said:
Bolton, certainly a few years ago, was the second largest flow to/from Manchester after London.

Bolton to Manchester in general or to Piccadilly in particular?

Ianno87 · 29 Jan 2021

Rhydgaled said:
Bolton to Manchester in general or to Piccadilly in particular?

That's the whole of Manchester Stations. But from rough observations that probably splits around 60% towards Castlefield, 40% towards Victoria.

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