Class 466
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I meant yep, given the question was whether they were still running (which they are).
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Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.
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southern442
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What's the Catford Loop linespeed, out of interest? I'm just wondering as to just how much slower it would be hypothetically, although obviously there is the awkward Loughborough Junction-Nunhead bit. I happen to think that a 'mainline' (or Outer Suburban if you're a bit more uptight with your terms) service stopping at Denmark Hill and Elephant and Castle could bring some benefits and improve their image as interchange hubs, particularly the latter with two tube lines on it.
brad465
Established Member
Ah right, apologies for not grasping it before.
60mph top as with the mainline via Herne Hill, however it's littered with restrictions, such as 15/MU40 through Catford, 20/30mph on the down line between Nunhead Jct and Crofton Park, then 45mph from Peckham Rye all the way to Victoria, or in the case of to Blackfriars, 60mph is possible between Loughborough Jct and Elephant & Castle, but a 20mph restriction exists on the spur connecting Denmark Hill and the Holborn lines at Loughborough Jct (with no platforms on them).
Verulamius
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Based on the Kent county council meeting it would appear that there are some concerns around 24 trains per hour during the rush hour (90 mins period only?) through the thameslink core.
I thought that this capability was based on ATO (automatic train operation). Does ATO not provide the capacity uplift expected?
I thought that this capability was based on ATO (automatic train operation). Does ATO not provide the capacity uplift expected?
bramling
Veteran Member
I don’t think that is in itself the issue, as the system can certainly manage 2.5 minute headways now. However 24tph means a continuous period with no respite on the 2.5 minute headways (currently there’s a small number of unused paths which provide breathing space), which would cause an issue should a train turn up off its planned path as it then has to be slotted in. I would guess there are concerns about the viability of this in practice. It isn’t just the effect inside the core, but on the railways either side.
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
What I find amazing is that the Thameslink Core doesn't even have the best signalling headway for stopping services in the country. London Charing Cross/London Cannon Street - New Cross has it beat at 2 minutes for both non stop and stopping services.
The other big issue with the Maidstone East services is Chiselhurst. I don't think the paths ever properly worked at Chiselhurst and there were some serious performance concerns. Particularly in regard to adding more crossing moves to the SO130 which already has quite a lot, and the fact that Chiselhurst Junction would mean that Thameslink would have to come up the Up Fast and either cross at Grove Park, Chiselhurst, Parks Bridge, Hither Green or London Bridge which is adding even more flat crossing moves.
The other big issue with the Maidstone East services is Chiselhurst. I don't think the paths ever properly worked at Chiselhurst and there were some serious performance concerns. Particularly in regard to adding more crossing moves to the SO130 which already has quite a lot, and the fact that Chiselhurst Junction would mean that Thameslink would have to come up the Up Fast and either cross at Grove Park, Chiselhurst, Parks Bridge, Hither Green or London Bridge which is adding even more flat crossing moves.
brad465
Established Member
While I agree there are potential conflicting moves that can cause concern, Thameslink trains don't have to use the up fast heading towards London Bridge, as the down spur is reversible. It would still cause a blockage on the slow lines at Chislehurst, but not as much as if it had to block 3 out of 4 lines. Also they did upgrade the junction by Chislehurst station a few years back to allow 40mph all the way through for train movements on the reversible line, rather than 20mph at the Chislehurst end, possible by removing the diamond crossing and adjusting the entry/exit (this also removed the 60mph restriction in an otherwise 70 zone on both fast and slow lines).
The only concern left as a result is if the Thameslink service were to get stuck behind stopping services on the SEML, although as there's only 4tph through to Hither Green that's less of a concern, then after that it would just avoid Lewisham and any delays into/out of London Bridge would probably be accounted for in the timetable like with other services.
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
I think the issue is though that even though the Down Spur is reversible Thameslink services would have to cross all 4 tracks on the SO110, which while the SO110 is not as busy as the SO130 its still a busy route, and trains crossing all 4 running lines is something you want to avoid if possible in the WTT as its something that can have a significant knock on effect, if there are delays. I think there were also some issues with freight on the SO110 around Chiselhurst likely relating to those crossing moves. And as it is Dollands Moor Freight it cannot be easily moved as those paths have been sold to the Rail Frieght Corridor.
43074
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For the benefit of others reading SO110 is the Network Rail line of route code for the line between Herne Hill and Swanley via Bromley South, and SO130 is the mainline between London Bridge and Orpington via Chiselhurst. Never thought I would have to clarify such things on here but there we go
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
Sorry about that. I'm so used to referring to them like that. Should have clarified myself. Just easier to write out instead of saying London Victoria to Ramsgate via Herne Hill, Swanley and Rochester.For the benefit of others reading SO110 is the Network Rail line of route code for the line between Herne Hill and Swanley via Bromley South, and SO130 is the mainline between London Bridge and Orpington via Chiselhurst. Never thought I would have to clarify such things on here but there we go
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43074
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No need to apologise at all! I'm reasonably familiar with them myself as far as Thameslink is concerned but obviously most won't be. It's ten times easier to decipher them when written down than how I usually hear them over the phone at any rate
It's an exceptionally fragile 2 minutes though - any Southeastern peak could fall apart with just delays of 1-2 minutes at take your pick off New Cross / Tanners Hill / Parks Bridge. And yes awkwardly the Chatham and Southeastern mainlines have the "fast" tracks on the wrong sides of each other; on the down this leads to unavoidable crossing unless crossing over at Swanley.
southern442
Established Member
Sorry if this has been asked before, I'm only just catching up with some of this thread, I saw somewhere mentioned that there are due to be extra SEML ashford services? Is this correct? Is there a document accessible that specifies all the proposed changes?
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Which is why the Maidstone East service should run via Beckenham Jcn thence onto the Holborns at Herne Hill. If there aren't paths then the Chatham Line services should get shunted to the Catford Loop as they already have the benefit of HS1 services into London which have abstracted a fair proportion of the traffic
The remit was a 24TPH service and the infrastructure was built out at great cost to deliver that but yet again excuses are being given by the infrastructure operator not to deliver that no doubt motivated by the threat to PPM. The core has proven to be pretty reliable without the use of ATO in large part because the drivers are allowed to managed the whole station cycle themselves without the use of platform staff which adds precious seconds to the dwell times as evidenced at the Southern stations further South having longer times in the plan. The industry also needs to move beyond the May 2018 debacle the timetable they designed was robust and reflects excellent work by the train planners and the signallers in operating it which has transformed reliability on the Brighton Main Line.
The Chatham Mainline isn't much better and the Catford Loop is much more full (but doable) than it used to be with the Thameslink. Though of course if they are binning the Gillingham stopper from Victoria, that's not an issue, but its not that fast.
southern442
Established Member
It's really not worth making CML services any slower. HS1 is there, yes, but it is expensive and the CML offers fairly reasonable journey times at a fairly reasonable price, and one should not underestimate that market.
Also depends when your end destination is; you can get from say Gillingham to Victoria in just under an hour and to St. Pancras in 45 minutes. If you're connecting onwards by tube, its a much longer interchange from St. P than it is Victoria and this is before you take into account the cost which will be a significant factor when timings are marginal.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Maidstone has been the poor relation for decades. In the 80's the line was mechanically signalled and a CEP could do Maidstone in 50mins with stops at Bromely Sth and Borough Grn. Then we had the Canon St service which was less than 50mins from London Bridge. As soon as Connex took over it just went backwards and there is no political will to do anything about it aided and abetted by the industry itself putting one obstacle after another because the industry does whatever it can to avoid dealing with it.
Actually the best fix is for KCC to buy some Azumas for the Rye/Hastings service and unlock some spare units so an all day service can be run from Maidstone West.
southern442
Established Member
An all-day HS1 service would certainly bring it into line with the other large towns in Kent. Until that happens, IMO it would be more sensible to have the Blackfriars-Maidstone services be all-stoppers from Bromley/St. Mary Cray and have both the Ashford services run fast from Maidstone to Bromley or something along those lines?
telstarbox
Established Member
Maidstone is obviously a big fish in Kent but does it have more commuters in or commuters out? I know the M20 has just been upgraded between Maidstone and Wrotham.
brad465
Established Member
The M20 upgrade is correct; I don't know about commuters into Maidstone but it does have a high number of school run passengers heading into Maidstone from both directions on the MDE line (and from Strood way on the Medway Valley Line). There are though a high number of London-bound commuters generally.
This might make sense for the headline fast journeys, with the Victoria and Blackfriars trains resigned to providing more country local / outer London semi-fast service at better frequency. Or allow skip stopping, or calls to be removed from the Kent Coast trains. 4tph to Bromley South is helpful too - as would the Denmark Hill connection. There isn't a Vauxhall, Clapham etc inner node on this line, straight into Victoria - so this might allow new journeys. Elephant is useful too, I guess.
Argyle 1980
Member
Is there any truth in what I got told about diesel being banned in the Stratford tunnels? Even if it's switched off obviously and running on wires?
Somebody on a Kent rail forum seemed to think so when it was suggested 80Xs could run from Eastbourne to St Pancras if a link from platforms 1&2 at Ashford over to HS1 was put in.
I've also read several rumours on there suggesting that the North Kent line Thameslink is going back to Southeastern and running like the old service did but via Greenwich and the Thameslink paths from Luton were going to Reigate after London Bridge instead of Rainham.
Well, the Eurotunnel rescue locomotives have made it St Pancras under their own power before now.
Aictos
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I've heard of rumours of Thameslink dropping Luton to Rainham but as they're just rumours, I believe it when I see it besides isn't the Luton to Rainham service more useful now then it was when it was Rainham to Charing Cross/Cannon Street?
Slip Slide
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NorthKent1989
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Not sure about Thameslink ditching Medway for Reigate, because Windmill Junction isn’t ready for extra Thameslink services, but I have heard rumours of rerouting the Medway Thameslink via Blackheath, but will still run through Woolwich, I don’t think they’ll do anything to that service until CrossRail is fully up and running from Abbey Wood.
Argyle 1980
Member
It did seem a bit bizarre when I heard about it. I know there's a few SE HS drivers I know who get peeved off when a 700 is let out ahead of them at springhead junction and they then get stuck behind it, which pre covid had a knock on effect right round the Kent Coast on it's return to STP via Folkestone.
brad465
Established Member
From my experiences of travelling between Gravesend and Strood/Maidstone pre-covid timetables, this is more or less how the timetable goes, with Thameslink departures from Gravesend at xx:13 and xx:43, then HS departures at xx:18 and xx:48, remembering also the latter skipping Higham closes the gap to 3 minutes by Strood and all the way through the Medway Towns, so a slight delay to the former service will cause HS service problems. In the London bound direction they are pretty much 15 minutes apart.
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