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Rail Replacement Buses, why are the routes so long?

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delt1c

delt1c

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Just been reading about the derailment at Dalwhinnie and the replacement buses between Inverness and Perth. Surely as there are intermediate stations with passing places it should be possible to provide a shorted bus replacement service than this. Rail is meant to be a way of reducing road traffic not increasing it. I remember back in the 70's and 80's bus replacement would be the minimum distance possible
 
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lincolnshire

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It all depends on what the route is like for swapping from train to bus, as an example in my area if the work is between Cleethorpes ( end of line station ) and Scunthorpe then these would be the station that the rail replacement service would run between and then transfer back to the train for onward travel to Doncaster and beyond. If the work was actually taking place beyond Barnetby and Harbrough then the best places are Scunthorpe to Cleethorpes for rail replacement. At Barnetby you can,t get a coach up to the station with out difficulty and then its got a footbridge from the platforms to the station entrance and its also a staff free station without any facilities or toilets. Cleethorpes and Scunthorpe has space to park coaches between services and also standby coaches. These are all the things that decide where a rail replacement will be run between for easy of passenger changeover etc.
 
Fawkes Cat

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lincolnshire said:
It all depends on what the route is like for swapping from train to bus, as an example in my area if the work is between Cleethorpes ( end of line station ) and Scunthorpe then these would be the station that the rail replacement service would run between and then transfer back to the train for onward travel to Doncaster and beyond. If the work was actually taking place beyond Barnetby and Harbrough then the best places are Scunthorpe to Cleethorpes for rail replacement. At Barnetby you can,t get a coach up to the station with out difficulty and then its got a footbridge from the platforms to the station entrance and its also a staff free station without any facilities or toilets. Cleethorpes and Scunthorpe has space to park coaches between services and also standby coaches. These are all the things that decide where a rail replacement will be run between for easy of passenger changeover etc.
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In other words, some degree of passenger convenience - a longer trip all on a bus may be a better experience than train-bus-train - even if that is quicker.

And add to which specifically the possibility of turning a train, or more generally railway operating convenience.

On first opening this thread, I thought it would be expecting the answer 'because lots of stations are down side streets and are difficult to access by road'. And if we had been having that thread, I would have asked why the Dent solution isn't used more widely - a bus between the stations where there are likely to be passengers, and a free taxi called on demand in the event of anyone actually wanting to go to/from a lightly used station.
 
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notlob.divad

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In this specific situation, I am surprised they are not shortening it to between Aviemore to Pitlochry.
 
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jopsuk

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Is Pitlochry signalled to allow the reversal? Can trains run into Platform 1 from the south? Likewise, can trains run into Aviemore platform 1 from the north? Are the station forecourts/car parks suitable for use as RRS terminals? (accomodating through RRS is a different matter)
 
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jopsuk said:
Is Pitlochry signalled to allow the reversal? Can trains run into Platform 1 from the south? Likewise, can trains run into Aviemore platform 1 from the north? Are the station forecourts/car parks suitable for use as RRS terminals? (accomodating through RRS is a different matter)
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Both Platforms at Pitlochry and Aviemore are bi-di signalled. Not sure what the forecourt of either is like. But there's also the question about can they run a useful service considering crew and the single line? If the service won't be used, why run it? A bus probably gives sufficient capacity for the majority of the line in any case.
 
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Ianno87

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jopsuk said:
Is Pitlochry signalled to allow the reversal? Can trains run into Platform 1 from the south? Likewise, can trains run into Aviemore platform 1 from the north? Are the station forecourts/car parks suitable for use as RRS terminals? (accomodating through RRS is a different matter)
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Also consider facilities for the crew. Do they have suitable facilities for a break (toilet etc) if diagrams become long enough to need one.
 
Dr Hoo

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Don't track access agreements still have a list of 'viable transfer points' in the Schedule 4 'possessions regime'?

(For obvious reasons these tend not to be un-staffed locations with no disabled access, inaccessible by buses and so on.)
 
Highlandspring

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notlob.divad said:
In this specific situation, I am surprised they are not shortening it to between Aviemore to Pitlochry.
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Trains were running to/from Kingussie and Blair Atholl with buses in between. A glance at Real Time Trains before the OP posted this thread would have shown this. I‘m not sure why ScotRail also chose to run a few buses all the way between Perth and Inverness but I suppose it gives the option of fewer changes and a quicker journey.
 
gimmea50anyday

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it also depends on the road network in the area concerned. Newcastle to Darlington for example a bus pulls out of Central Station almost directly on to the redheugh bridge along the A184 and boot straight down the A1 to junction 58 and along the A68 to Darlington, whereas Newcastle to Darlington all stops has to come off the A1 at jn 63, through Chester Le Street town centre, up the hill to take the left turn into the housing estate to reach the station pick up point, (or along the road behind the town centre iver all the speed bumps to the hospital and in passed screwfix) then back through the town centre and on to the A167 towards Durham which involves several roundabouts, negotiate the traffic heading to an out of town shopping centre, passed the college and hospital, then up the hill to Durham station, negotiate the tight turning circle that is usually blocked by people doing pick ups and drop offs, then back down the hill, negotiate the bery narrow laned and busy Milburngate bridge to pick up the A690 and on to the A1 at jn 62 - or alternatively stay on the A167 all the way
The train takes 30-35 minutes to cover the journey and all stops, the bus can take 45 minutes non stop with no traffic, adding the stations increases it to at least one hour 10 minutes. When traffic along the A1 western bypass and A167 Darlington North Road is factored in can easily add 30 minutes to the journey, and this is an example using major trunk routes and dual carriageways. RRBs between Newcastle and Edinburgh stations have a single carriageway A1, lorries limited to a maximum 56mph and no possibiliy of passing them to contend with (I believe its 40 on single carriageway roads) I would imaging a RRB covering part of the S&C will have some very convoluted routes through and around the hills to reach each affected rail station
 
delt1c

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Highlandspring said:
Trains were running to/from Kingussie and Blair Atholl with buses in between. A glance at Real Time Trains before the OP posted this thread would have shown this. I‘m not sure why ScotRail also chose to run a few buses all the way between Perth and Inverness but I suppose it gives the option of fewer changes and a quicker journey.
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The OP was just using this an example, I was refering to Rail Replacement services in general which tend these days to be longer than in the past.So Real Times Trains was incidental for the post
 
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Dr Hoo said:
Don't track access agreements still have a list of 'viable transfer points' in the Schedule 4 'possessions regime'?

(For obvious reasons these tend not to be un-staffed locations with no disabled access, inaccessible by buses and so on.)
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Yes, each TOC has its own set of maps with VTPs on.
 
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davetheguard

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I do often wonder what happened to "working trains to & from the point of obstruction" - I assume it still exists in the rule book? If it does, it very rarely seems to be implemented; as a result we get unnecessarily long journeys on rail replacement buses as mentioned by the OP.
 
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If I remember rightly, when the Anglia Main line was closed from Shenfield to Colchester for renewing the OHLE, RRBs ran from Billericay to Ipswich. Billericay has a very large car park, whe enabled literally dozens of coaches from all over East Anglia to provide the service, and they attracted the coach spotting community in droves. The non-stop service from Billericay to Ipswich was supplemented by a stopping RRB service to Chelmsford and all stops to Colchester, which must have taken for ever.
So the "long" RRB route from Billericay to Ipswich provided an express service for passengers to Ipswich & beyond, even though they could have chosen a "short" distance journey taking twice the time.
 
Highlandspring

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davetheguard said:
I do often wonder what happened to "working trains to & from the point of obstruction" - I assume it still exists in the rule book? If it does, it very rarely seems to be implemented; as a result we get unnecessarily long journeys on rail replacement buses as mentioned by the OP.
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Yes it still exists in modules P1 and P2. I’ve dealt with it in the last five years at Keith, Anderston, Rutherglen and Stonehaven.
 
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davetheguard

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Highlandspring said:
Yes it still exists in modules P1 and P2. I’ve dealt with it in the last five years at Keith, Anderston, Rutherglen and Stonehaven.
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That's good to hear. It sounds like your expertise would have been useful between Perth & Inverness!
 
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Robertj21a

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Isn't some of this down to the need to properly cater for the disabled?. Access and facilities aren't always ideal at every station.
 
tbtc

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I'd probably prefer to sit on a coach all the way than do a bit of train then bit of coach then a bit of train - especially given that there'd have to be quite a bit of contingency time built in to ensure that all connections were made (coach waiting for train, then train having to have a departure time that allows for the coach to definitely get there with all passengers changing over again).

The general justification on here (for through routes to far flung destinations) is that |passengers prefer direct trains, after all - having to change journey twice must put a few people off (hence putting on some direct services)

But I (also) agree with the above points about disabled access, signalling, staffing etc (especially given the single track on the HML)
 
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gimmea50anyday said:
it also depends on the road network in the area concerned. Newcastle to Darlington for example a bus pulls out of Central Station almost directly on to the redheugh bridge along the A184 and boot straight down the A1 to junction 58 and along the A68 to Darlington, whereas Newcastle to Darlington all stops has to come off the A1 at jn 63, through Chester Le Street town centre, up the hill to take the left turn into the housing estate to reach the station pick up point, (or along the road behind the town centre iver all the speed bumps to the hospital and in passed screwfix) then back through the town centre and on to the A167 towards Durham which involves several roundabouts, negotiate the traffic heading to an out of town shopping centre, passed the college and hospital, then up the hill to Durham station, negotiate the tight turning circle that is usually blocked by people doing pick ups and drop offs, then back down the hill, negotiate the bery narrow laned and busy Milburngate bridge to pick up the A690 and on to the A1 at jn 62 - or alternatively stay on the A167 all the way
The train takes 30-35 minutes to cover the journey and all stops, the bus can take 45 minutes non stop with no traffic, adding the stations increases it to at least one hour 10 minutes. When traffic along the A1 western bypass and A167 Darlington North Road is factored in can easily add 30 minutes to the journey, and this is an example using major trunk routes and dual carriageways. RRBs between Newcastle and Edinburgh stations have a single carriageway A1, lorries limited to a maximum 56mph and no possibiliy of passing them to contend with (I believe its 40 on single carriageway roads) I would imaging a RRB covering part of the S&C will have some very convoluted routes through and around the hills to reach each affected rail station
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HGVs are 50 on single carriageway roads now, but even so a bus has next to zero chance of passing one on the single carriageway A1 unless its in the wee small hours.
 
Starmill

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I'm confused as to what the OP is asking. Consider a passenger needing to get from Inverness to Edinburgh. If there is a bus running non-stop from Inverness to Perth, they can use any train from there to Edinburgh to connect to. If there is not a bus doing so, they may be required to change at Perth additionally as they've missed the re-started train they were already on from Inverness after they ended up having to catch the bus from Aviemore to Pitlochry. This risks a journey which would have been direct becoming three changes as well as potentially longer. However, if a bus runs at times which connect well with what trains are available then overall journeys may be quicker, more convenient and more reliable - even if a greater proportion of time is spent on a bus.
 
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Starmill said:
I'm confused as to what the OP is asking. Consider a passenger needing to get from Inverness to Edinburgh. If there is a bus running non-stop from Inverness to Perth, they can use any train from there to Edinburgh to connect to. If there is not a bus doing so, they may be required to change at Perth additionally as they've missed the re-started train they were already on from Inverness after they ended up having to catch the bus from Aviemore to Pitlochry. This risks a journey which would have been direct becoming three changes as well as potentially longer. However, if a bus runs at times which connect well with what trains are available then overall journeys may be quicker, more convenient and more reliable - even if a greater proportion of time is spent on a bus.
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Exactly this. I should imagine that an express bus from Inverness, departing at the scheduled train time, would arrive in Perth in time for the restarted train at booked time to Edinburgh. This would probably cater for the bulk of main traffic on the service. The passengers to and from the relatively more minor stations would be catered for by another bus, which would probably miss the restarted train at booked time at Perth and those passengers would get an hour longer journey, using the more frequent service from Perth.

If a train left Inverness at booked time for say Aviemore, the time spent transferring the passengers to a bus and then stopping at more stations, would most likely miss the train restarted on time at Pitlochry, meaning a much longer wait (an hour and three quarters or something) for the next train at a station with few facilities for the waiting passengers.
 
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cambsy

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Tiverton Parkway is a popular RRB place when line shut towards Plymouth, as it literally same journey time as train to Plymouth, Exeter St Davids is nearer, but factor in getting out of Exeter and ease of transfer etc at Tiverton Parkway, and it about 12 mins less journey time from up north or London etc, than Exeter, then Parkway is no brainier.
 
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davetheguard

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However, to use RT4038's example above, if you still ran a train from Inverness to Aviemore, a fair chunk of the line would still have a train service (rather than a bus service the whole length of the line).

I guess it's swings and roundabouts, and I suppose most of the passengers will be making the whole journey from Inverness to Perth (?), so a bus all the way aids them, but personally I'd prefer to do as much of the journey as possible on a train, as that is the mode of travel I've chosen when buying my ticket.
 
Highlandspring

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davetheguard said:
However, to use RT4038's example above, if you still ran a train from Inverness to Aviemore, a fair chunk of the line would still have a train service (rather than a bus service the whole length of the line).

I guess it's swings and roundabouts, and I suppose most of the passengers will be making the whole journey from Inverness to Perth (?), so a bus all the way aids them, but personally I'd prefer to do as much of the journey as possible on a train, as that is the mode of travel I've chosen when buying my ticket.
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Once again I’ll point out that train services were running between Kingussie/Inverness, and Perth/Blair Atholl, so passengers had the option to travel by train - bus - train if they wanted.
 
Starmill

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davetheguard said:
However, to use RT4038's example above, if you still ran a train from Inverness to Aviemore, a fair chunk of the line would still have a train service (rather than a bus service the whole length of the line).

I guess it's swings and roundabouts, and I suppose most of the passengers will be making the whole journey from Inverness to Perth (?), so a bus all the way aids them, but personally I'd prefer to do as much of the journey as possible on a train, as that is the mode of travel I've chosen when buying my ticket.
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There is no reason why you wouldn't have been able to do this. It would just have been a case of you reaching your destination later, potentially a couple of hours later, than otherwise.
 
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The Planner said:
Yes, each TOC has its own set of maps with VTPs on.
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Indeed and where I am several have been changed in recent years...
Robertj21a said:
Isn't some of this down to the need to properly cater for the disabled?. Access and facilities aren't always ideal at every station.
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...for this very reason. If it was buses between Inverness and Perth this would suggest that Blair Athol and Aviemore / Kingussie might not be viable transfer points, though whether this rule applies in the case of emergency rail replacement I'm not sure. However for those who need those stations the train served the train is better than the coach and given social distancing is in force, much easier on a train than a road coach. From memory Kingussie doesn't have compliant access from the Perth bound platform either.

davetheguard said:
I do often wonder what happened to "working trains to & from the point of obstruction" - I assume it still exists in the rule book? If it does, it very rarely seems to be implemented; as a result we get unnecessarily long journeys on rail replacement buses as mentioned by the OP.
Click to expand...

Highlandspring said:
Yes it still exists in modules P1 and P2. I’ve dealt with it in the last five years at Keith, Anderston, Rutherglen and Stonehaven.
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Where I am is not so keen on it these days especially if it involves pilot working or degraded signal working to minimise workload on the signaller.
 
185

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Northern Trains for several years have replicated the same cut-paste replacement bus timetable for one specific train, under Abellio, Arriva and OLR management.

The bus sets off, arrives at Manchester Airport twenty five minutes later, but has to wait there for 20-25 minutes - pointlessly at 0135 in the morning. The passenger train would have been half an hour earlier so absolutely no need for the 22 minute wait. Despite all the fluffy cheerful letters from customer relations, repeated tweets promising it would be looked at, and them being sent a letter from the rail minister - not one of the three Northern firms did anything to fix the error.

Most drivers (sensibly) ignore the time and go 25 minutes early - but that would be unfair on anyone turning up at the Airport for that (badly timed) bus.
 
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