Grumpy Git
On Moderation
On 29th April, I was driving north through Pontlottyn on the A469 at about 13:00 and a TfW liveried 769 had just departed en route to Rhymney.
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Transport for Wales 769's
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The_Train
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Does anybody know the formation of 769426 please?
I have a source suggesting that 3 of the coaches came from 319426 and the other is a driving vehicle from 319374 - either 77485 or 77484. This would tie in with what others have said about it originally only having 3 coaches due to corrosion issues with the 4th that was originally planned. If anyone can shed any light it would be appreciated.
Cheers
Edit: Ignore this, just found out that the original driving car from 319426 is now being added back to the formation hence the unit's return to Brush
I have a source suggesting that 3 of the coaches came from 319426 and the other is a driving vehicle from 319374 - either 77485 or 77484. This would tie in with what others have said about it originally only having 3 coaches due to corrosion issues with the 4th that was originally planned. If anyone can shed any light it would be appreciated.
Cheers
Edit: Ignore this, just found out that the original driving car from 319426 is now being added back to the formation hence the unit's return to Brush
6Gtraincrew
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Looks like only one in service again today. 769002 06:40 off Cardiff Central
Interesting to note that Northern had 5 or 6 769s out working yesterday, including diesel / electric power changeover en route. Whereas TfW were able to muster a single 769 (diesel only) on the Rhymney services.
Definitely a less than shameful performance from Northern. If TfW are indeed 'pulling out all the stops' to get their 769s in service (and indeed, why wouldn't they), makes you wonder whether they're pulling the right stops in the right order - because it doesn't seem to be working very well....
Bob Price
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Northern did already have experience with maintaining and fixing 319's so they had a better head start sorting out their 769's. I think TfW were a bit caught out by how badly bashed about the 769's they have were. If they had ordered 10 195's off the back of the Northern order they would be in service by now. This was an ambitious project and I hope other conversation projects take this into account.
Cardiff123
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I'd replace the word 'ambitious' with naïve and foolish. But then it was Chris Grayling as Transport Secretary that signed off the 769 project.......
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Indeed, the 319s were slugs anyway, goodness knows how slow they must be in diesel mode?
Well there about 50 pages of how they work if you want a read
What is with the constant these units must fail? it just goes to show how many negative people there are on this forum and most are comenting on stuff they have no idea about and have not been within 100 miles
There is a possibility that while the 143s are still able to be used that the 769s are having training and TLC done at the depot, they may not necessarily all be failures.
Every 769 diagram not covered after the end of next week is effectively almost 2 guaranteed short formed diagram or cancellations whereas its a little easier to cover them whilst the 143s are still about, may as well use up the mileage on them!
They could still be "pulling out all the stops to use them" in readiness for the final drop dead date of the 143s
These posters don't seem to have anything else to offer in threads about 319s or 769s. Once their drivers understand how they are best driven, the broken record whingeing here will eventually cease.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Not a whinge, merely stating a fact, (and please point me to where I suggested I want them to fail).
I'll say it in more agreeable language for those offended: the 319s have poor acceleration, goodness knows how poor they must accelerate when in diesel mode?
I would however suggest they are a "train on the cheap" for areas which never include the London or Home Counties routes, (i.e. Chat Moss gets wired, London gets new trains, North-West gets the 319s)
I'll say it in more agreeable language for those offended: the 319s have poor acceleration, goodness knows how poor they must accelerate when in diesel mode?
I would however suggest they are a "train on the cheap" for areas which never include the London or Home Counties routes, (i.e. Chat Moss gets wired, London gets new trains, North-West gets the 319s)
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DustyBin
Established Member
In fairness though the 319s weren't sluggish on Thameslink, the issue is apparently the way Northern drivers were instructed to drive them. They're no FLIRT by any means but they aren't notably slower than any other MK3 based EMU.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I once read an article in "Rail" in the late 1980's regarding how much energy is used when driving electric traction in an "aggressive" way as opposed to a in "gentle" way. The study showed, that driving with a faster rate of acceleration from a standing start actually used less energy overall point to point, as you have more time effectively "coasting" once up to speed in most circumstances.
It would be great if a driver could back-up or rubbish this statement though?
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The largest fleet of them is being built for services in the Home Counties?
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I would however suggest they are a "train on the cheap" for areas which never include London
Oh dear, this thread has decended into yet another London vs the North argument.I would however suggest they are a "train on the cheap" for areas which never include Londonor Home Countiesroutes, (i.e. Chat Moss gets wired, London gets new trains, North-West gets the 319s)
The trains are basic outer suburban EMUs in passenger terms virtually the same as class 321s as have been used in West Yorkshire since the early 2000s with similar performance. When the Thameslink core was upgraded to handle about 3 times the traffic, the demands on the infrastructure meant the fleet needed to be replaced with a fleet with far higher capacity and very precise characteristics to allow a 24 trains per hour service (up to 30 tph max.) to run. This meant that the 86 class 319 were surplus to the south-east's requirements. The class 319s are suitable for the NW electrified services, including stoppers on lines where headways are far greater than their Thameslink duties.
They have been proven suitable for conversion to Bi-Mode for outer suburban lines (almost) anywhere, - their first two days on the Southport to Alderley Edge services seem to say so. Once TfW drivers and maintainers get the feel of them they will probably prove to be far better than the 142/143/150/156 current encumbents as DMUs.
Did the 319s that went to London Midland never run into London?I would however suggest they are a "train on the cheap" for areas which never include Londonor Home Countiesroutes, (i.e. Chat Moss gets wired, London gets new trains, North-West gets the 319s)
Going back to 769s, and when the concept was being advertised in the late 2010s I thought it would be a very good move for Arriva Trains Wales and/or it's successor to order a large number of them. With Porterbrook advertising that units could be converted rapidly, it appeared to be the only way (except perhaps 230s) for Wales to meet the original PRM deadline without doing expensive PRM modifications to the 150s and Pacers, which at the time I feared would see those diesel trains leased for many more years, delaying the Metro electrification, to allow the ROSCO to recover the cost of the PRM mods. In hindsight Porterbrook couldn't deliver as quickly as they had advertised and as a result TfW failed to meet the PRM deadline with respect to Pacers, and the PRM modifications on the 150s hasn't attracted quite as long a lease as I thought it would.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Not as a 769.
That's because the LM services were run entirely under OLE. What would be your point about them not being 769s?
It won’t be the original coach from 426 as the chassis is twisted beyond repair. Still waiting vehicle detail to be confirmed by Porterbrook
True (I don't think LM ever had 769s or plans to get any did they?), but your post (that I was responding to) said "London gets new trains, North-West gets the 319s" (bold added by me) so you were talking about 319s anyway there and not 769s.
They may be more fuel efficient (I've no idea how to find out) but I don't think they will ever beat the performance of the 150s or Pacers. I've done several runs on 769s. The drivers are definitely going for it a lot more now but in every measurable way, they are still slightly slower than 150s. Pacers were the fastest when they were let loose on their own. They actually have the same power to weight ratio as a 175.
DustyBin
Established Member
I’m sure this will have been answered somewhere previously, but what is the top speed of a 769 on diesel? If it’s over 75mph but there’s nowhere they can actually stretch their legs their gearing is a disadvantage. If on the other hand they can and do get to 90-100mph that should make up for any shortfall in acceleration (assuming a decent length run at speed).
Good question. The only time they'll ever get above 60 mph is downhill from Heath High Level to Cardiff Queen Street.
6Gtraincrew
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Only 002 in pax service today. 421 on test/training duties.
They will do 100+ on diesel
eventually - on level track.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Yes, the gearing for the TfW one fleet isn't optimal for slogging uphill to Rhymney, but they are in the Autumn of the lives, are a stopgap of maybe less than five years, if that, and refitting the power car bogies with new wheelsets and traction motor pinions simply wouldn't be worth it. The Northern and GWR fleets on the other hand will almost certainly reach higher speeds at some point in their daily cycles.
The_Train
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Ah right, thanks for that info. I shall sit tight until further info is known
anthony263
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426 in the yard at canton next to a class 67 at the western end minus its original driving carriage at the Eastern end of the train.
If it needs a replacement what about the 319 carriage they used to transfer it over to ca ton depot ?
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