Sadly, TfW will be replacing their 158s in a few years - so whilst in theory it would make sense, given they’re planning on retaining the 170s for the duration of the franchise I don’t think they’ll go for it (unless things change)
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EMR Class 170 updates
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PHILIPE
Veteran Member
TFWs 158s are maintained at Machynlleth so any transfers in would have to be fitted with ERTMS. I'm sure that with their days limited with TFW they wouldn't want to spend money on such a modification. Inter TOC transfers are a matter for the DFT so TFW or EMR would have no say.
43096
On Moderation
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It is not beyond the capability of Canton to maintain them - they have in the past.
TfW do have a say as it's not a franchise let by DfT.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
I was thinking of capacity at Canton as construction works will be going on there in connection with the Metro introduction and which has been documented elsewhere on the Forum but if the 170s were to be exchanged this should free up space.
Agree TFW could have a say because of their devolvement but DFT would still have to be involved in regard to the 170s.
Considering an English company is involved with the transfer, it would ultimately come down to DfT - although with reduced passenger numbers and TfW’s new fleet coming in, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is an eventual decision to release the fleet.
The 170s are also maintained at Canton so it would just be a straight swap, with possibly less units than the current number of 170s. Also less parts to store for the 170 and common parts with the rest of the 158 fleet, so ERTMs wouldn't be required.
It was more a nice thought than anything, it's not likely to happen.
Not if 14 3-car units went to EWR (for their requirement for 12-14 units) and 11 2-car units and 2 3-car units stayed at TfW.
Such a move could get TfW out of the need to have 170s and avoid the need for Southern to give up 171s to EMR.
Path for Cardiff Canton to Etches Park showing in Realtime Trains for Monday, 24th May.
Looks like this should be the first 170 from TfW.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Looks like this should be the first 170 from TfW.
Realtime Trains - 5M71 0901 Cardiff Canton Sdgs Gbrf to Etches Park Sdgs
Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
FLIRTfan18
Member
Have heard that 170517 moved to Crewe today
WillPS
Established Member
There are pictures on Flickr from today showing it on the way there with hastily stripped branding.
Chorley Cake
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What’s happening with 170511 ? Has it been rebranded ? Is it still with EMR (somebody mentioned it had arrived at Etches Park in a tatty state upthread somewhere) ? Is it in use ?
anthony263
Established Member
Tfw rumoured now to be looking at using the 197s to replace the class 170s on west wales routeswhich is why they've purchased add mark4 carriages and dvts to replace them on Cardiff to Holyhead and some North wales services
I think these must be replacing the Southern 171s if the move doesn’t go ahead - from what someone said to me on Twitter (think he’s a TPE member of staff), EMR provided TPE a polite warning about the transfer deadline of the 15 185 units to EMR for Liverpool to Nottingham services, so they must have been unable to secure enough 170s...
Spirit555
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170273Path for Cardiff Canton to Etches Park showing in Realtime Trains for Monday, 24th May.
Looks like this should be the first 170 from TfW.
Realtime Trains - 5M71 0901 Cardiff Canton Sdgs Gbrf to Etches Park Sdgs
Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.
swt_passenger
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The southern 171s are supposed to have nothing to do with the Liverpool - Nottingham service, the decision to keep that route was a late change and requires more stock, in excess of the original franchise agreement figures.
What I meant to say was should all 12 TfW 170s move to EMR, the Southern ones won’t be required seeing as it’s very likely the 15 185s are being used by EMR for the Liverpool to Nottingham route, rather than enabling an all-170 route even on that route...
Failed Unit
Established Member
Still not sure EMR will want 185s. Less seats, more fuel usage then the 158s. Yes crush loading is better on a 158. But as a passenger 6 car 158 or 6 car 185. Give me the old train anyway.
jw
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June's edition of Modern Railways suggests that EMR will operate Liverpool to Nottingham with 5-car 158 formations.
ABB125
Established Member
5-car?
TheBigD
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Quite easily. They would split a number of 2 cars and add them to the other sets. Like FGW did, Wessex did, Central Trains did and TPE did.
The more technicallly minded can explain the ins and outs but as I understand it, it's basically an adaptor plate for the gamngway connection and different jumper cables.
fgwrich
Established Member
Indeed - it is as simple as that. Presumably made easier now that GWR has reduced the number of 3 car Hybrids they have.
Speed43125
Member
GWR style reforming I'd guess if that's true
With all due respect, I very much doubt they’re keeping the 158s. EMR announced a full fleet replacement for all routes, including the regional services...
ABB125
Established Member
But that was before it was announced that EMR were keeping the Liverpool route. So the planned class 170 fleet won't be enough (especially if the Southern units never turn up)
Yes but there are newer DMUs that will become available soon (i.e. the 185s or the 175s) so why keep the 158s when they can be replaced by more modern DMUs?
Perhaps the 158s are more suited to the task. DfT will perhaps be less keen to scrap serviceable stock if cash is tighter going forward. I'm sure that the ROSCOs will be squeezed on price though.
As with some of their 156s, the 158s could easily go to Northern or GWR to replace or supplement their elderly 150s. It won’t be too hard to shuffle the 158s around...
ABB125
Established Member
I agree that it might be a good idea to bring in newer units. However:
- EMR crew and maintenance are already familiar with class 158s
- Class 185s are heavy and expensive to run, and I don't think there are quite enough to run all Liverpool-Nottingham trains as double units? (15 going off-lease?)
- There are too many class 175s (unless the whole fleet is taken on to cover for the lack of Southern class 170s (although that seems it might be covered by TfW's class 170 fleet)), so splitting the fleet will irritate my OCD (likewise with class 185s!)
