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Transport for Wales 769's

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Caaardiff

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its getting to the point where id say enough is enough i want my pacer back
Sadly that's not going to happen. If the reliability issues continue its just going to be a case of deal with it when it happens and short forms. The refurb program is nowhere near complete on any of the fleet so there's not even chance to get a couple of units back as a backup. The sooner the mk4s get in service, supposedly in a week or two, that will free up a unit, then it'll be a case of waiting for the 197s.
 
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158srule

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Luckily the 67s are cleared to ystrad Mynach.

769092s problem appears to be the computer saying no
It was a motor alternator issue which meant train lost all electrical power almost immediately. 67s also now cleared all way to Rhymney
 

Optom1

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Bailed out of the 9.40 at Lisvane,and drove to Llandaf,does anyone know if there were bustitutions for those unfortunate not to have a car nearby?
 

Anonymous10

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Bailed out of the 9.40 at Lisvane,and drove to Llandaf,does anyone know if there were bustitutions for those unfortunate not to have a car nearby?
if its anything like a year ago when i was on the line its they cancel the train then send a 2 car train up pick u up and everyone waiting for both trains and its rammed
 

Bikeman78

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its getting to the point where id say enough is enough i want my pacer back
All joking apart, I'd love to know how much the class 769s cost versus the cost of PRM mods to the 15 class 143s, to the same standard as 144012. The current Rhymney valley timetable would require 12 units from 15 which the Pacers would easily achieve. They managed 26 from 30 in their heyday, usually with units to spare.
 

Rhydgaled

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Sadly that's not going to happen. If the reliability issues continue its just going to be a case of deal with it when it happens and short forms. The refurb program is nowhere near complete on any of the fleet so there's not even chance to get a couple of units back as a backup. The sooner the mk4s get in service, supposedly in a week or two, that will free up a unit, then it'll be a case of waiting for the 197s.
Do the mark 4s and 197s have anything to do with TfW's plans for releasing 143s/769s? I thought the plan was for 170s, 230s and 153s to come in and displace 150s from non-valleys routes so that virtually all TfW's 150s become concentrated on the ValleyLines which, together with the 769s if they worked, would replace the 143s.

This would mean the south Wales metro routes being covered by 57 existing units (170s, 150s and 769s) which seems likely to be enough units to cover the work given that the planned Stadler fleet (231s, 398s and 756s) is only 71 units (a mere 14 more than the existing fleet despite the massive frequency uplift planned).
 

PHILIPE

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All joking apart, I'd love to know how much the class 769s cost versus the cost of PRM mods to the 15 class 143s, to the same standard as 144012. The current Rhymney valley timetable would require 12 units from 15 which the Pacers would easily achieve. They managed 26 from 30 in their heyday, usually with units to spare.

Hindsight perhaps. Failing Grayling said a few years ago when he was in situ that Pacers have got to go, so this prompted a rush to get rid of them.
 

Bikeman78

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Hindsight perhaps. Failing Grayling said a few years ago when he was in situ that Pacers have got to go, so this prompted a rush to get rid of them.
I agree. The responsibility for this fiasco lays firmly with the DfT, not with TfW or ATW before them. The Pacers might have been a bit crap but at least they achieved the primary objective of getting from A to B without conking out. Yes they had their moments but usually isolating all safety systems would get them moving empty to depot.
 

Anonymous10

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All joking apart, I'd love to know how much the class 769s cost versus the cost of PRM mods to the 15 class 143s, to the same standard as 144012. The current Rhymney valley timetable would require 12 units from 15 which the Pacers would easily achieve. They managed 26 from 30 in their heyday, usually with units to spare.
they are possibly regretting it now because it can't be easy trying to provide a service with units that say no i wont go out today
 

Caaardiff

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Do the mark 4s and 197s have anything to do with TfW's plans for releasing 143s/769s? I thought the plan was for 170s, 230s and 153s to come in and displace 150s from non-valleys routes so that virtually all TfW's 150s become concentrated on the ValleyLines which, together with the 769s if they worked, would replace the 143s.

This would mean the south Wales metro routes being covered by 57 existing units (170s, 150s and 769s) which seems likely to be enough units to cover the work given that the planned Stadler fleet (231s, 398s and 756s) is only 71 units (a mere 14 more than the existing fleet despite the massive frequency uplift planned).
No, the 769's were to enable to Pacers to be retired prior to the PRM deadline which has been extended and extended. Not all of the additional 153's will be PRM compliant, but they are already in service. I forgot about the 230's which will eventually free up 2x 150's.
But my point was more along the lines of the 769's were planned to be in service by now which currently would be the equivalent of 12 150's. So even with a few more 153's having mods without the toilet provided they get dispensation, the 230's coming into service and a mk4 or 2, there is still a sizeable shortfall. It's unlikely any other fleet will be added temporarily until the 197's. So I was more going along the lines of things having to do as they are until the 197's come into service.

When looking at units you also need to look at carriages, as the new fleet with be 3 and 4 carriages whereas the 150's are only 2.
 

158srule

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they are possibly regretting it now because it can't be easy trying to provide a service with units that say no i wont go out today
What is being missed is that it’s not just PRM mods. The train would also need a major exam and wheel sets that don’t exist anywhere
 

Rhydgaled

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No, the 769's were to enable to Pacers to be retired prior to the PRM deadline which has been extended and extended.

[snip] my point was more along the lines of the 769's were planned to be in service by now
I think I agree - my point was that if the 769s (and 230s) were working as desired then the 143s would already be gone and mark 4s or 197s would make no difference to the removal of Pacers.

However, the removal of 143s will leave TfW very dependant on the 769s which given the problems we have been seeing with them does not bode well. Given that the 197s are (stupidly in my view) intended to replace 158s and 175s, the south Wales metro is potentially stuck relying on 769s until the Stadler fleets start to appear.
 

craigybagel

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I think I agree - my point was that if the 769s (and 230s) were working as desired then the 143s would already be gone and mark 4s or 197s would make no difference to the removal of Pacers.

However, the removal of 143s will leave TfW very dependant on the 769s which given the problems we have been seeing with them does not bode well. Given that the 197s are (stupidly in my view) intended to replace 158s and 175s, the south Wales metro is potentially stuck relying on 769s until the Stadler fleets start to appear.
197s all also replacing the 150/153s on Blaneau and Crewe-Chester. Not much, but it helps.

More importantly however, the arrival of 197s and MKIVs releases the pressure on the 158s and 175s, meaning we won't need to see the daily substitution of those units with 150/153s, which can stay on the shorter routes they're intended for.
 

Rhydgaled

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197s all also replacing the 150/153s on Blaneau and Crewe-Chester. Not much, but it helps.

More importantly however, the arrival of 197s and MKIVs releases the pressure on the 158s and 175s, meaning we won't need to see the daily substitution of those units with 150/153s, which can stay on the shorter routes they're intended for.
Good points; though if the Crewe and Blaneau workings are 153s then they aren't that much help on the south Wales metro compared to 150s. I suppose if the 197s fill in for unavailable 158s/175s then that is prefrable to 150s filling in for unavailable 158s/175s.
 

Caaardiff

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Good points; though if the Crewe and Blaneau workings are 153s then they aren't that much help on the south Wales metro compared to 150s. I suppose if the 197s fill in for unavailable 158s/175s then that is prefrable to 150s filling in for unavailable 158s/175s.
There are opportunities for mk4s to release 175s which can then work Chester - Liverpool & Crewe and West wales diagrams which will free up several 153s.
There are still 150 diagrams in West wales although majority are now double 153s. There will likely be a 150 on Blaenau for some time, and the introduction of the 230s will free up 2 150s.
The West wales diagrams can be changed whenever a 175 or 158 becomes available.
At a guess I would say there are about 5 or 6 150 diagrams in total that don't work the Valleys.
3x 153s running on Rhymney would be useful as well.
It's all very time dependant now and reliant on 230, mk4 and eventually 197 introductions.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss TfW 769s; please create a new thread* (in the appropriate forum section) if you wish to discuss anything else, thanks :)

* If it is related to 769s you are welcome to post a link to it from here :)
 

anthony263

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Maybe another issue with the 769s is they are running around all day on diesel power alone. Shane we haven't got any overhead wires up yet or pantograph fitted so they could run on electric at times
 

fgwrich

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Maybe another issue with the 769s is they are running around all day on diesel power alone. Shane we haven't got any overhead wires up yet or pantograph fitted so they could run on electric at times
As it stands, they wouldn't really be of much use other than on Cardiff - Ebbw Vale services (between Cardiff and Newport). Given the high revving nature of these engines, coupled with the steep gradients, I wonder how much more fuel these things are using compared to a 143 or 150.
 

AM9

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As it stands, they wouldn't really be of much use other than on Cardiff - Ebbw Vale services (between Cardiff and Newport). Given the high revving nature of these engines, coupled with the steep gradients, I wonder how much more fuel these things are using compared to a 143 or 150.
Are they run at higher speeds? The 150s are thrashed every time they pull away because so little torque is available until the torque converters are thoroughly stirred up. DEMUs like the 769s rotate the engine at its most efficient speed , the electronics then adjusts the excitation to provide the current that the traction speed controller demands. Rotating an engine at a speed which is at the optimum on its power curve for output is a) more fuel efficient and b) better in wear and tear for the engine anyway.
 

northernbelle

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Are they run at higher speeds? The 150s are thrashed every time they pull away because so little torque is available until the torque converters are thoroughly stirred up. DEMUs like the 769s rotate the engine at its most efficient speed , the electronics then adjusts the excitation to provide the current that the traction speed controller demands. Rotating an engine at a speed which is at the optimum on its power curve for output is a) more fuel efficient and b) better in wear and tear for the engine anyway.
Not to mention the fact there's half the number of them compared to a Sprinter or Pacer.
 

AdamWW

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I don't know how many are out today, but on a trip from Central to Penarth today all I saw on the line was 150's (apart from quite a few 769's in the depot...)
 

D.K.TAYLOR

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I don't know how many are out today, but on a trip from Central to Penarth today all I saw on the line was 150's (apart from quite a few 769's in the depot...)
Apparently only one out today 769002
 
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Grumpy Git

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I've been working in the area since Tuesday. On general observation, all I've seen are 153's and 150's.

There is still a 37 tucked round the back at Rhymney as of this afternoon.
 

Max

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769 was out on the 07:07 Penarth-Bargoed this morning (as I was on it) - presumably 769002 based on the above.
 
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