Absolutely spot on regarding HS2, never going to be any benefit to Scotland any time soon, if ever.
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Caledonian Sleeper
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Journeyman
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Yes, it is. Any reduction in journey time along the route gets passed on immediately.
Inadequate is what the rest room is.
And was inadequate long before Covid restrictions.
The new stock falls short on a few things if compared to the old coaches.
Makes one wonder who on earth supervised the building of the new stock!
MrEd
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I’ve never seen much need (on the Highlander) for the lounge car to be open between midnight and 6am. An in-room service would be perfectly OK, I’m sure, for the few refreshments that are served between these hours. I think that the problem is that the staff need a permanent rest area which conforms with social distancing requirements- I don’t think that even the closed lounge car necessarily fits that brief.
It already is! Quite a number of people in Scotland employed on the project, and taking 30-50 minutes off typical best journey times to London is not to be sniffed at.
paul1609
Established Member
Personally I don't think that will be true. Its been noticeable to me that once the WCML modernisation even in its watered down state (no 140 mph etc, etc) journey patterns changed. This included a loss of traffic on the Glasgow sleeper 3hr plus will be a game changer compared to the current service.
How much space is needed for this permanent rest area? There is clearly a practical limitation on how much space could be devoted to this, particularly on the Highland sleepers north of Edinburgh. I presume that the staff don't all take their break at the same time.
How many staff are on the sleeper (excluding driving staff who I believe change)
Assuming there is a room of a similar size to the train manager office on a Pendilno, there is no problem with social distancing as it's a sealed room.
One person goes in at t+4h40 and leaves at t+5h00 after their 20 minute break
One person goes in at t+5h00 and disinfects, then starts break at t+5h10 and leaves at t+5h30 after their 20 minute break
One person goes in at t+5h30 and disinfects, then starts break at t+5h40 and leaves at t+6h00 after their 20 minute break
Thus 3 members of all can easilly have their 20 minute break.
Are there really more than 3 members of staff for each "office" (I get the impression there's at least two carriages with such an office on each 16 car trainset)?
Assuming there is a room of a similar size to the train manager office on a Pendilno, there is no problem with social distancing as it's a sealed room.
One person goes in at t+4h40 and leaves at t+5h00 after their 20 minute break
One person goes in at t+5h00 and disinfects, then starts break at t+5h10 and leaves at t+5h30 after their 20 minute break
One person goes in at t+5h30 and disinfects, then starts break at t+5h40 and leaves at t+6h00 after their 20 minute break
Thus 3 members of all can easilly have their 20 minute break.
Are there really more than 3 members of staff for each "office" (I get the impression there's at least two carriages with such an office on each 16 car trainset)?
I used to travel from Stirling fairly often. I always found little point in trying to get off straight away due to the shunting at Waverley. The lounge car is a place to relax and unwind beforehand which is very beneficial in terms of getting a decent sleep.
Barnett consequentials, too.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not to mention improved punctuality due to not being crammed in with everything else on the house of cards that is the south WCML.
When is this all going to happen?
Have journey times already improved?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The day HS2 Phase 1 opens. The south WCML, which Phase 1 effectively 6-tracks, is the bad bit.
The WCML PUG (Passenger UpGrade) did improve them a bit, yes, but HS2 will improve them further with each phase.
When are these 30 to 50 minute improvements going to happen ?
A lot of Scottish people employed on Crossrail, no benefit to the Scottish rail infrastructure though!
Your still not giving any dates!
I stand by my original post,no benefits to Scotland any time soon, if ever.
From when HS2 opens. Around 2030 for the first 30 mins or so, a few years later for the rest. And that will take passengers off the lowlander.
No doubt, but what you said was....
Which is different.
Butts
Veteran Member
A quick reality check - my last flight from London City to Edinburgh was 45 minutes !!
MrEd
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I wouldn’t know what the requirements are I‘m afraid, as I’m not particularly sure how the staff work these days once all the passengers are in bed. In the old (Mk3) days the three carriage hosts used to use the pantries (and the team leader sometimes sat on the bench seat in the lounge car kitchen, or at an empty table, doing the lounge car stock check) but I’m not sure what happens with the Mk5s.
We get Barnett money for that, too.
And to be precise, we've already got a big chunk of the Barnett money for both Crossrail and HS2.
Congratulations.
Just had my second trip on the new stock and have to say I'm a bit mystified by the bad press it gets here! I have a lot of affection for the Mk3's but honestly it was again smooth and comfortable (even with the upper bank now annoying deployed in a single room). This time the hot water was working, and the shower was actually pretty great. The only negatives at all related to the service - meagre breakfast offerings with the granola yoghurt only being soy yoghurt for some reason, and also no option to choose what time you wanted breakfast, it was just 6.30am or nothing.
Albeit scheduled for 1h15, with another 20 minutes, and getting to London City (which is less convinenent than Euston or Old Oak Common).
But yes, that flight (not to mention all the trains) took more people than the sleeper. Unless the train is under 2h30, preferably 2h, the plane will win on speed for many journeys (especially from East London)
The bigger question is who is tacking the lowland sleeper and why are they doing it, and is that journey something we as a taxpayer want to continue to subsidise to enormous levels (£17k per journey back in 2011 - £170 per passenger. Not sure what the 2019 level was), or should we spend the money somewhere else - increased services on neglected lines, more electrification, carbon offsetting, etc
From a business point of view I used the Glasgow sleeper because it allowed me to arrive in plenty of time for a 9am meeting, without having to get up at 4am to fly and hire a car. It gave me a full day to work in Glasgow if required. It also gave the benefit of the opportunity to do something interesting once meetings were over - although I accept that most business people wouldn't choose to take an evening trip to Corrour or climb a mountain at Pitlochry before getting the sleeper home.
I last used the Edinburgh sleeper in 2018 mostly because I didn’t fancy arriving in Dundee at 6am on a Saturday morning. 7.30 into Edinburgh with a day train onwards was much better.
Maybe that’s a way of using the stock of the Lowlander becomes surplus to requirements post-HS2. Have a second highlander portion leave later allowing for a more reasonable arrival time in places such as Stirling, Dundee, Perth etc. but still running through to Inverness and Aberdeen (if paths allow) for those who don’t mind being a bit later.
Admittedly, the market for such a service will likely be very small…
Maybe that’s a way of using the stock of the Lowlander becomes surplus to requirements post-HS2. Have a second highlander portion leave later allowing for a more reasonable arrival time in places such as Stirling, Dundee, Perth etc. but still running through to Inverness and Aberdeen (if paths allow) for those who don’t mind being a bit later.
Admittedly, the market for such a service will likely be very small…
paul1609
Established Member
Taking your figures and assuming a single lowland sleeper journey of 400 miles is 42.5 pence per mile. Average subsidy of Northern Rails operations was 36 p per mile and even pre covid was increasing by a large amount. I'd suggest that given that Northern are a partially urban operation there are primarily tourist route (S&C etc) that are operating at higher subsidy than the sleeper.
Wasn't there discussion about using the released Mk3 stock for an Edinburgh-Thurso sleeper to meet the morning ferry? I presume that once anybody looked at the financials it didn't go any further, but if they've got perfectly good Mk5s kicking about the Scottish govt might get interested again.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The solution to this is for inconsiderate fools to stop organising 9am meetings for people who are travelling a long way. 10 or 10:30am is just fine, and has the advantage of the organiser having time to get in, have a coffee and prepare the room and meeting materials so the visitor's time is properly respected by everything being ready for their arrival rather than them showing up at 9 half asleep and then a load of faffing about ensuing. If you can't lose that hour, then either arrange for the visitor to have an overnight stay so they are awake for the work, or order in lunch and have a working lunch with a buffet to regain the time that way.
Not only is doing this contemptuous of the visitor, but it also means they won't be working at their optimum because they'll be tired, either because of a very early start or because of "sleeping" on the Sleeper, which for most people is never quite as good as a proper bed.
At the moment from Edinburgh it's an 0540 train for that, but if HS2 takes that to 0600 ish that's getting almost civilised and definitely preferable to me than the Sleeper (and no doubt way cheaper, too). 5 hours kip in a proper bed is way better for me than 7 fitful hours of sort-of-sleep.
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flitwickbeds
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And how long did it take to get from Central London (or even your house) to City Airport, how much time were you hanging around the airport waiting to board/on the plane waiting for takeoff, and how long to get through arrivals and into Edinburgh City Centre/your destination?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The reason I didn't refute him on this is that LCY to Edinburgh barely has any more hanging around than a railway journey on an Advance (where you have to make sure you don't miss it). So this example is one where it's hard for rail to compete on time alone.
- LCY is only about half an hour from central London on the DLR, and even closer to Canary Wharf.
- It's designed for 15 minute check-ins. That was extended more recently as it was so busy, but with hand luggage only and COVID making it quiet it'll be really quick to get through again.
- Edinburgh airport is very near what is quite a small city and is really quick to get through on arrival (and not bad for departures).
Where rail can compete better is "yes, it takes 4 hours, but you can work (or sleep, going back on topic) during the journey" - the time for the air journey is rather bitty.
paul1609
Established Member
We are back to the question of real journeys. If you live in East London, Kent, Essex, Suffolk,parts of East Sussex, London City Airport is as quick to get to by public transport as Euston.
When I travel to the Central Belt none of my business destinations are in either Edinburgh or Glasgow city centres, Edinburgh will be typically somewhere in Fyfe. The airport will be closer and most certainly have better car hire facilities.
Butts
Veteran Member
The plane took off at 5.20pm and I was back in Falkirk driving from Edinburgh Airport (30 min journey) before 7pm.
I arrived at the Airport about 4.30pm to be on the safe side but queues are minimal at the moment both at LCY and EDI.
If you want an even more obvious example I had arrived from Belfast into LCY earlier in the day and that took less than an hour - inconceivable on any other mode of transport.
An Embraer E 190 trumps any form of Rail Travel available in the UK today.
As you sup complimentary Glenlivet Malt Whisky it cruises effortlessly at 38000 feet conveying you at speed and comfort to your destination.